Help With Layout Please

[browngd]

I am brand new to Model RR and this will be my first layout. I have done a lo of reading here and have already learned a lot. However, I am having some difficulty with my layout. I would appreciate it if someone could help get me started and then I can tweak from there. I just don't have enough knowledge at this point to understand fully what I am doing. I have included a drawing of my room with dimensions.

I am doing this as a project with my two sons. I am interested in switching and operations, however, I know they would be more interested in a continuous layout. Therefore, I would like to include both. Maybe a mainline or two along with switching for industries and such. I would like to have a coal industry, paper mill, and something else interesting. Maybe a sawmill. We would also like to have a rail yard as there is one close by us that my son is fascinated with. I will be removing the door to the room so we will be able to have a "duck under" in order for the train to go completely around the room. This is unless someone else has a better idea to use all of the space available.

I would like to go with HO scale, but am open to N as well. Also, I would like for the depth to be 36". I understand that most people say to only go 30", however, I want to have some mountains and such back near the wall, so my track will more than likely be within the 30". Also, I would like to have some grades that includes a few different levels to keep it interesting. Maybe even a helix hidden inside of a mountain or something. I would also like to run fairly long trains if possible.

You will also notice the little area that protrudes in the upper left hand corner. Not sure if there is a good use for this area or not. I thought it may be a good place for a helix hidden inside of a mountain. I would like to use every bit of possible space I can.

I hope I am not asking too much here. I just need help getting this going and then I think I will be fine. Thank you!

 

[choops]

10" X 10" will be a very tight space for ho scale. in ho a helix will not fit into the corner. Best that can be done is around the wall layout. A lot more can be done there in N scale.

Steve

 

[TwrOpr 87]

I'd say HO scale since it's not too tiny for your kids to use. It's easier to work on rolling stock and build kits of any kind. I had a small N scale set up for a while. I didnt like it much because a lot of detail is lost compared to HO in my opinion. I've had an HO layout for prolly the last 15 years and love it. A 10x10 room would be good smaller trains and switching operations but not long trains or a large yard, if you go with HO scale. My advice is go with HO, pick a time, place, and enjoy the hobby. Picking a specific time period will help keep your rolling stock look uniform and make it more realistic. I'm like the 60s to 80s so I only shop for stuff that fits that time frame, example buildings, vehicles, rolling stock. I hope this helps you


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- Sent from my phone

 

[browngd]

I was initially open to N scale if I had too go that route. However, after visiting my LHS this evening, I realized just how small it is. Not sure I will be able to work that small as I have vision issues. I do like the idea of being able to run longer trains and having a more realistic layout. My concern with HO at this point is that 1 lap around the layout will only take like 30 seconds and if my train is long enough it could be in "two places at one time". At this point my only concerns with N scale is the small size and it not looking realistic because it is so small and thus less detailed.

If you all can give me more advantages to N scale and help to sell me on it, I may have a go with it. I do like the possibility of running passenger cars with an N scale layout that I wouldn't be able to do with an HO layout in this space. This was something my son wanted. However, he wants it to be modeled after a local historic train, which means I will have to custom paint them and I am not sure if I will be able to at that size.

I still however, am clueless about how to begin a layout. I bought a few books and now I am even more confused. I don't have enough of a grasp on how real trains are routed and laid out to come up with something other than a basic oval. I want something much more interesting than that.

 

[mrail]

Here is an idea for a bridge to eliminate a duckunder at your room entrance. On my layout, I have a liftout bridge that I made from non structural aluminum channel. The cross section measures 2 1/2" wide by 1" flange and has a 1/8" web thickness. It spans an opening of 34 inches. It is HO, single track and it is held in place with cabinet latch magnets. Laid up next to a HO plate girder bridge, the cross sections are nearly exact. Longer spans are available and I have made one for a modeler in Kansas City as long as 43".

Track power is wired from the approaching track on both ends to the magnets. The power is then conducted through the magnets and into the bridge track. I have an interlock built into the track on both approaches. So when the bridge, which acts as a conductor, is out, the track is dead on both ends preventing locomotives from going over the edge. However, that isn't true for trains doing a reverse move or backing cars but that is another problem for someone else to solve. I have had this bridge since 2001 and it has never failed.

Check out the 3D image and photo of my bridge.



http://s69.photobucket.com/albums/i75/mrrail/?action=view&current=BridgePicture01.jpg&jwidget_action=album

mrail

 

[steinjr]

I was initially open to N scale if I had too go that route. However, after visiting my LHS this evening, I realized just how small it is. Not sure I will be able to work that small as I have vision issues. I do like the idea of being able to run longer trains and having a more realistic layout. My concern with HO at this point is that 1 lap around the layout will only take like 30 seconds and if my train is long enough it could be in "two places at one time". At this point my only concerns with N scale is the small size and it not looking realistic because it is so small and thus less detailed.

If you all can give me more advantages to N scale and help to sell me on it, I may have a go with it. I do like the possibility of running passenger cars with an N scale layout that I wouldn't be able to do with an HO layout in this space. This was something my son wanted. However, he wants it to be modeled after a local historic train, which means I will have to custom paint them and I am not sure if I will be able to at that size.

I still however, am clueless about how to begin a layout. I bought a few books and now I am even more confused. I don't have enough of a grasp on how real trains are routed and laid out to come up with something other than a basic oval. I want something much more interesting than that.

The core issue is to first define "interesting" in a sensible way.

For me, what works is to try to define what I want to be able to do with my trains on the layout, rather than trying to get a long train.

A long train often means a short run - say your H0 scale passenger train train is 10 feet log (engine and 9 passenger cars).

If your mainline run is 40 feet long, then that train can run 3 train lengths before it is back where it started.

If, on the same layout, you model a mixed passenger train consisting of one H0 scale engine, one passenger car, one boxcar and a caboose, your train is three feet long, and your mainline from where you start to the other end is 13 train lengths long. Long enough for maybe three stations w/passing sidings, and still having a couple of train lengths of single track run between each station.

Now it becomes practical to run two short trains, one heading in each direction. Now it becomes necessary for one of the train to "take a siding" - i.e. get off the line and wait for the other train.

Now it gets possible that your short train will have to stop and drop off that freight car on the way across the layout, and stop to pick up another car at another station.

Now it takes 15 minutes or more to make a round of the layout with that one train, since you every time you stop to couple or uncouple cars take a short break, while visualizing the conductor walking back along the train to handle the coupler and brake line, and doing a brake test - increasing pressure in the line, walking along the train to see that all brakes are off, decreasing pressure - seeing that the brakes go on and then increasing pressure again in preparation for departing.

And so on and so forth. The key to "interesting" is not sheer depth of benchwork or length of run. It is thinking about what you want to model.

Or maybe you want to stand in one place and look at a busy scene where several trains will be arriving and departing in short order from a passenger station.

Say you want to have four eastbound and four westbound 5-foot passenger trains pass through the station before things repeat.

Okay - say we set aside 10 feet of length for the passenger station, with two 6 foot platforms - one by the wall and one between the tracks - giving you room for three trains at the station at the same time.


Now use the rest of the room for "staging" - sidings that just are there to hold trains that are about to go on stage, or come off the stage. Now the fun is not running trains through the layout - it is trying to replicate the traffic pattern through the station.

Maybe one of the trains come in with a sleeper car that needs to leave on another train. Maybe one train has an express mail car that needs to be left at the post office spur.

Lots of ways of doing things.

But it all starts with a description of what you would like to be able to do with your trains.

"I want it to be interesting" isn't quite specific enough

Just throw out ideas - people will tell you what is achievable and what won't be possible in your space. 10x10 foot is not a bad space for a model railroad in H0 scale - but it depends on what you want to model.

The track plan below, for instance, fits in 10 x 11 feet - and one of the points there is that it does _not_ have continuous run. Trains start out from the yard at lower left, and go to different areas on the layout, do something there - pick up and set out cars, and come back to the yard with the cars they have picked up:

This is nowhere near what you seem to be envisioning - but the general type of footprint (narrowish shelves aroind the room with a peninsula) would work in your room to - albeit with narrower aisles:

So before you worry too much about how to draw the track plan - sit down and think more about what you want to be able to do on your layout.

Continuous running is fairly easy to achieve in your room - don't worry too much about that.

But what you need to think about is what would be interesting to you.

Good luck!

Smile,
Stein

 

[browngd]

Thank everyone for your input. I have been playing around in the room today trying to tape off areas to see how this will all work. Stein, I really like the layout that you suggested, but I have a few questions. I have decided to go with N scale just because I think it will be more realistic and I think we will enjoy what we can do with N scale in this layout more than HO.

As you know, I do want to do continuous with some switching along the way. I like the peninsula in your layout and it would seem like an area where I can put a substantial yard. However, my question is this. If I have a yard on the peninsula, how do I keep my locos from getting trapped at the end of the yard when I drive a train in the yard. Also, I really don't want to do a turntable since we are going to be modeling in the present era and turntables are not true to the present era.

 

[steinjr]

Thank everyone for your input. I have been playing around in the room today trying to tape off areas to see how this will all work. Stein, I really like the layout that you suggested, but I have a few questions. I have decided to go with N scale just because I think it will be more realistic and I think we will enjoy what we can do with N scale in this layout more than HO.

As you know, I do want to do continuous with some switching along the way. I like the peninsula in your layout and it would seem like an area where I can put a substantial yard. However, my question is this. If I have a yard on the peninsula, how do I keep my locos from getting trapped at the end of the yard when I drive a train in the yard. Also, I really don't want to do a turntable since we are going to be modeling in the present era and turntables are not true to the present era.

Yet another option is to always back the train into the station (and always pull out again with the engine leading), or always pull into the station, and back the train out of the station again. The Milwaukee Road backed up their passenger trains for 30 blocks from a wye in South Minneapolis, going into their Minneapolis Passenger station. Can easily be simulated

Btw - it is not a given that N scale will be "more realistic". It just will give you room for longer trains and more scenery.

Btw2 - the "engine goes elsewhere to turn" in example 2 can be simulated by picking it up, turning it and setting it down again, or by e.g. using a small home
made cassette or a Peco Loco Lift.

Smile,
Stein

 

[TwrOpr 87]

Thank everyone for your input. I have been playing around in the room today trying to tape off areas to see how this will all work. Stein, I really like the layout that you suggested, but I have a few questions. I have decided to go with N scale just because I think it will be more realistic and I think we will enjoy what we can do with N scale in this layout more than HO.

As you know, I do want to do continuous with some switching along the way. I like the peninsula in your layout and it would seem like an area where I can put a substantial yard. However, my question is this. If I have a yard on the peninsula, how do I keep my locos from getting trapped at the end of the yard when I drive a train in the yard. Also, I really don't want to do a turntable since we are going to be modeling in the present era and turntables are not true to the present era.

Id say have a run around track or wye which is what we use at work. The CP seems to love wyeing its power for some reason out of bensenville yard, Il. Just a thought if it can be wired and work well

 

[browngd]

Good points Stein and Jim. I forgot that yards employ a switcher engine that can shift cars back and forth. Each of the ideas you mentioned will take some space. Yet another reason to go with N scale. After going up to the room and laying out my area with tape, it really is too small to have the type of layout I want in HO. I think I will like N scale better because it will free me up to have a more involved layout. Also, I do want quite a bit of scenery which will allow for more of that also.

I may end up putting a wye at the end of the peninsula if there is room. Do you know approx. how much space would be needed in N scale for a wye? I really only see the need to use it to turn locomotives around, so I am guessing that it can be smaller.

Stein, I have changed my layout to more closely match yours. Like I said, I like the peninsula and I think it can serve as a great yard. Here is what I have now. I made my aisles a little narrower than you had them. This gives me a little extra space. Most of the aisles are at least 28' except between the peninsula and the area on the wall which is only about 25'.

Here are some pics with it laid out in tape. I also added some black tape to simulate track, however, it is by no means in any real placement at this time. It just helps to illustrate where the tables are and where the aisles are.

 

[ratled]

Not to high jack the thread, but you know stein, the more I see this plan the more I like it. IF I ever have to re do my layout in the same space, I will do a version of this. It has so much to offer for the space, in terms of operations anyway, that most folks don't spend enough looking at it to even understand it. Well done. You probably know this but the guy on the other forum that I saw you pitch this to some time ago, is on yet another forum looking for plan.
ratled

 

[TwrOpr 87]

In the 4th pic it looks like you could put a wye in using the mainline as part of the wye. I'm not quite sure how to explain it without a picture for you to see tho :/

Basically use the mainline, and your yard track that already exist and add the 3rd leg of the wye. That would allow you to turn equipment at the yard and make it fairly easy and quick. That way you're not running power down the main too far just to make a wye move. I hope that helps you


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- Sent from my phone

 

[browngd]

Ok, I have been trying to take the layout that Stein posted and recreate it in SCARM, but I am not having much luck. The software doesn't seem very intuitive and I am having a hard time figuring out how to use it. This says a lot for a computer guy such as myself. Stein, what program was the layout you provided done in? Is it possible to send me the file so I could just open it and modify it?

I have tried several of the free programs out there and I can't figure out any of them very well. What is the best one to use? I was wanting to go the software route so that I could make sure it is to scale so that I know the layout will work. Thanks.

 

[steinjr]

Ok, I have been trying to take the layout that Stein posted and recreate it in SCARM, but I am not having much luck. The software doesn't seem very intuitive and I am having a hard time figuring out how to use it. This says a lot for a computer guy such as myself. Stein, what program was the layout you provided done in? Is it possible to send me the file so I could just open it and modify it?

I have tried several of the free programs out there and I can't figure out any of them very well. What is the best one to use? I was wanting to go the software route so that I could make sure it is to scale so that I know the layout will work. Thanks.

Best one is purely subjective - some people like one, some people like another.

Me - I like XtrkCad. Hard to learn, easy to use once you understand how to think (draw straight track, use curve tool to connect, parallel tool to do parallell tracks, difference between right-mouse-down-and-draw and left-mouse-down-and-draw, shift-click to change which endpoint of turnout is the active one and so on and so forth). Others positively hate that program.

Some swear by SCARM, which is a new program by a Bulgarian guy who popped up on the net maybe a year or so ago, and apparently is trawling quite a few model railroad groups to tell them about his program. Fast developer - new functionality comes at a steady clip.

There are also a bunch of other programs. Not really all that important which program you use - the important part of design is done with a napkin and a pencil - the high level conceptual design - figuring out what you want to do.

Structural design is about placing the main elements into a room - yards, towns etc, and how they will be connected.

The detailed design - the exact location of tracks, turnouts etc in each scene is the last level of design.

Most people have a tendency to skip the first and second phase, and then start churning out plan after plan after plan in the third phase, still not clear about what they are trying to model.

This is what layout designer Byron Henderson calls "The Tragedy of Cad Too Soon". Beautifully drawn plans of bad designs

I could zip up that file and upload it, but it would be useless to you - wrong scale (H0 instead of N), wrong theme (urban switching layout).

I would recommend not spending a lot of time now on drawing detailed designs, and instead spending some more time on figuring out the overall idea.

You seems to be headed towards N scale trains. I believe you have mentioned mountains.

Is your dream to run passenger trains trough the mountains? How long trains? What era? From where to where? What kinds of scenes do you want your trains to run through? Do you want to have several trains running at the same time? On different parallel tracks? Or would you want a single track main, so you need sidings where trains can meet? Do you want the trains to do anything on the way through the layout?

Did you also want freight? Length of trains? Type of cars/traffic? Mostly traffic passing through the area, or mostly traffic coming from elsewhere to the area, or mostly traffic going from the area to elsewhere?

Do you primarily want to stand before a scene and watch trains pass through the scene (the railfan perspective)? Do you want to walk along with the train to pick up and drop of cars (the train crew perspective)? Do you want to sit at a dispatch panel and control signals, having trains automatically stop in sidings or at stations (the dispatcher perspective)?

For a yard - are you fascinated by sorting arriving cars into outbound blocks, to build new trains and send the blocks out on new trains?

Are you fascinated by passenger car service - like handling head end traffic (express freight or mail), or taking off or adding a sleeper or a restaurant car for the next segment of the trip?

Or is it the engines that you are fascinated by -do you want to have an engine terminal with a diesel fueling pad and sand refilling, a diesel house or something like that?

Or is a yard to you just a collection of parallel tracks where you can hold whole trains before they go on a round around the layout - i.e. staging?

In short - try to start by describing your vision, your overall goal.

Here is one example: "I want to have a double track line through mountain scenery, where a single passenger train will orbit one way on the rear/inner track, and a single freight train will orbit in the opposite direction on the aisle-side track, with two passenger stations along the outer track and three industries and a small yard along the inner track".

Not a given that this is your vision. Try to spend a few moments thinking about what your vision is. What do you want to be able to do on your layout?

Smile,
Stein

 

[RexHea]

Browngd: using your room photo, it looks like you are going to use a duckunder or liftout at the door. I would have your peninsula yard tracks come into a throat that connects to a "wye" (w/auto reverser of course) at the left/right mainline(s). This will give you choice of direction and engine turning capabilities. I use this design on my main yard and it allows very smooth traffic flow. Also, remember that a wye doesn't have to look exactly like a "Y"; just has to be electrically the equivalent.

 

[browngd]

Stein, I have an understanding of what I want to do, I guess I just haven't done well at communicating this. So let me try.

I would like to have both continuous and switching operations. I would like a continuous line that makes two rounds of the room or either a mainline and then a branch line. I want to have sidings along the way for industry and would like to have a nice size yard and possibly a secondary yard. For the continuous run I would like to have the line go through scenery like a small town or two and some nice mountain scenery. My vision here is that there is a grade that takes the train up the mountain as it makes its way around the room. On this trip around there would be a coal industry and maybe a logging industry. The grade would then bring the train back down off the mountain and it would make another trip around the room in the "valley" where there would be a small town and then maybe a power plant or a steel industry. I am also thinking of having another industry or two and possibly another town. The time frame would be from around 1990 - Present and the season will be fall so I can enjoy all of the fall foliage. The idea is to run mostly freight and I will only have diesel engines due to the time era. I may try to incorporate a passenger train for my son since he has requested it, but it may just be something I run around the room just for him. I would like to run two trains at the same time.

This accomplishes two things, it allows me to have the interest of switching operations while allowing for me to just run continuous for the kids who are too young to understand switching at the moment. The other thing this allows is for 1 trip around the complete circuit is actually two trips around the room and each time around the room has slightly different scenery. Let me know what you think.

Rex, is there a way you could take a picture of what you are talking about on your layout. Being new to Model RR, I do not fully understand what you are trying to describe.

 

[steinjr]

There is a picture of Cherokee Yard on Rex's layout in this old post of his:
http://www.modelrailroadforums.com/forum/showpost.php?p=212158&postcount=28

Here is a track plan showing (more or less) the track configuration for Woodsriver Yard on Paul Dolkos's old layout:

The concept of having a yard off a wye is that you can arrive in either direction on the main and head into the yard, and you can head out of the yard in either direction.

I think the other point Rex was making was that by having the peninsula come off the right or the left side of the room, or down from the top (instead of up from the bottom by the door), you have more room for a wye.

And of course - there is nothing that says that the main yard will have to be on the peninsula - you might as well have a spur down to some industry on a peninsula, and have a double ended yard that also doubles as staging for a couple of trains e.g. along the right wall of the room.

Edit: example of having a double ended yard and a peninsula in from the left:

Smile,
Stein

 

[Motley]

A wye is a place to turn trains around. You will need a reversing module using DCC such as Tony's Trains PSX-AR. Look here: http://www.tonystrains.com/products/dccspecialties.htm

 

[RexHea]

Thanks Stein for following up on my post and giving a much better description of what I was trying to suggest . (I had completely forgotten about the other thread.)

Browngd: there have been some excellent suggestions given already. Don't be timid about tying some of these with your ideas and visions. Just be aware of trying to get too much in too little and realize that scenery/buildings/industries require a great deal of space. I've seen some outstanding and high detailed small layouts that had loads of switching and operational capabilities, but the owners had to sacrifice having "long" trains and long routes to accomplice this. Your floor plan is a very good way to size just what you can have, but now you need to add building, industry, and scenery footprints along with it to get a better feel of what will work. Ready to get started?

 

[browngd]

Thank you everyone for your comments. There are some very good ideas that I am sure to implement. Before I go any further, let me tell you this is going to be a long post. I have done a great deal of research over the last couple of days which was prompted by Stein's comments. Thank you for that.

I don't know much about railroads and am hoping to learn a lot through this process. Since I decided to do this, I have always wanted to model the layout from the area in which I live. What I have learned over the last few days promise that this will be a very interesting layout. Here is what I have learned.

I live in Keyser, WV. There is a train that goes through town and follows the Potomac River to Cumberland, MD. As most of you all probably already know, this line is operated by CSX and there is a very large locomotive facility in Cumberland. On the other side of me the line goes to a paper mill in Luke, MD. From there I believe it goes up the mountain to Kitzmiller, MD. I also researched more information on a line that runs from Petersburg, WV to Green Spring, WV. This was an old B&O branch line that was bought by Chessie System. In the late 70's Chessie decided to try to sell it off and the state of WV stepped in and bought it. This made WV the first state to own it's own railroad. It is called the South Branch Valley Railroad. The line is still in operation today with freight service on weekdays and a scenic excursion train on some weekends. This train is called the Potomac Eagle Scenic Railroad. This line has a junction to the CSX Cumberland Division at Green Spring, WV near Cumberland.

Now, the reason for all of that is because this presets exciting opportunities for my layout. The Potomac Eagle has 4 locomotives. This is their roster.

Baltimore & Ohio GP9 #6604: Painted in original B&O passenger livery.

Chessie System GP9 #6240: Painted in original Chessie System livery.

Chesapeake & Ohio F3Au #8016: Painted in original C&O passenger livery although originally owned by the Clinchfield Railroad.

Potomac Eagle F7A #722: Painted in Potomac Eagle Scenic colors and originally owned by the Bessemer & Lake Erie.


Also the South Branch Valley RR has the following on their roster.


Builder Model Road Number Date Built
GE 65-Tonner 80 1943 (Ex-Keystone Ordnance Works)
EMD GP9r 90-92 1956 (Ex-N&W)
EMD GP35-3 100 1963 (Ex-SP)
EMD SD9 180-181 1957 (Ex-DM&IR)
EMD SD18 182 1962 (Ex-B&LE)
EMD F7A 722A 1952 (Ex-B&LE)
EMD GP9 6135, 6240, 6604 1955-1957 (Ex-C&O and Ex-B&O)
EMD F3Au 8018 1948 (Ex-Clinchfield)

This will allow me a lot of variety on my layout. Also the Potomac Eagle locomotives pull double duty hauling freight on the weekdays also. This means that it is not that uncommon to see the Chessie System locomotive pulling freight on the line during the week. It's almost like a throwback in time within the current era.

I also plan to model the Cumberland CSX locomotive facility as well if space permits. The idea is that I will have the CSX mainline that runs continuous and then that will tie into the SBVRR line. On this line I can run freight or if I want to simulate a weekend I can run the passenger excursion train. There will be industries along this line as well as industries along the mainline. There are also some key scenic landmarks that I will be modeling on the SBVRR line. So there is something for everyone!

Also, here is something else I learned. I thought that turntables were no longer used and they were mostly from the steam era. However, the Cumberland facility has a large turntable that they use to turn locomotives around and also use it to route locomotives onto different tracks in and out of the facility. I have seen this on the map and also saw youtube videos of this in operation. I am not sure if I will have the space for it, but I thought it was interesting.

Now with all of that information, anyone have anything additional to add or comment on. I would love to hear a lot of input on this idea. And by the way, I am excited that the Potomac Eagle has a Chessie System locomotive in its original paint scheme. I ave always liked the look of these and remember these from when I was a kid.