good cheap dcc starter unit

[Iron Horseman]

If a person has basic knowledge in electronics it shouldnt be a problem.

With today's DCC systems one does not need any understanding of electronics. Take the unit out of the box. Hook power to the DCC unit. Hook two wires from the DCC unit to the track. Plug in the throttle (if it is a seprate unit). Plug in the power to the electrical outlet. Put DCC loco on track. Turn on unit. Set throttle to channel 3. Run train.

I have never understood why people want to make DCC into this hard and complicated thing.

I for one don't think I had to open the book for the Digitrax Zephyr. I did have to read the NCE manual to find the "off" button. Other than that I think both are easy. Likewise the Lenz w/throttle 100 (not the throttle 90 yuck). Then there is the CVP EZ-DCC. It might be even easier yet.

On the other hand, I do understand how installing decoders into older non-DCC ready engines can get a bit more complicated pretty quick, especially if one wants to do all the fancy lighting things. Then when one wants to start speed curving, and consisting, volume control, and all those bells-and-whistles type things. Even then I don't think it is as hard as it is overwhelming.

 

[kbkchooch]

Even then I don't think it is as hard as it is overwhelming.

At least DCC systems do have a manual if all else fails.

DCC is easy, its women that are hard!!

 

[Jason K]

At least DCC systems do have a manual if all else fails.

DCC is easy, its women that are hard!!

Ain't that the truth..lol

 

[Espeefan]

You don't think the two throttle limit is very limiting? You operate within that limit, so it does not bother you, but it is still a limit to the command station, and a major one to many people.

So here's our first disconnect. I'm talking about command station capabilities. Does it read back CVs? Can you program 2 and 4 digit addresses, etc. You're talking about how many throttles. The Powercab command station will do all of the functions the Procab one will, with the exception of storing macros and a few other things starter sets aren't set up to do. And yes, two throttles without the smart booster, and four with. I have not been able to find out if the soon to be released upgrade will change this.

"MAX of four," he did not say how many operators, but if he wanted one per train with four trains, he has already exceeded the Power Cab's limit. Even with just two, he also said a 12 x 12 layout. It might get a little cumbersome with a throttle that can not be unplugged and a second operator on a layout that size.

"But more likely two" You can unplug the second throttle, as with the Zephyr.

I would say there are probably very few home layouts that would require 12 throttles, but I would also venture to guess that there are a lot that require more than four. Use my situation as an example. I have a 14' x 20 ' area for my layout, so it is a pretty good size but certainly not a basement empire. I have two sons, a nephew, and three nieces. The layout will not support all of them operating at the same time, but it should support four operators fairly well. OK, four operators, a Smart Booster can handle that - except I also want fascia mounted push buttons to trigger turnout routes. With NCE that requires a Mini Panel, which uses a throttle address. I am also considering using PC based dispatching, and on NCE the PC interface uses a throttle address. No, I don't need anywhere near 12 throttles, but I am way beyond the Smart Booster's limit.

OK, but now we're talking about what you want, not answering Joe's question. That's the bad thing about asking "what should I buy. We'll all tell the poster what we like. I'm trying to stay focused on what he asked, where you seem to be talking about what you need to run your layout. It's no big thing, I just like to try and be careful of new modelers. You can give them too much information and they walk away more confused than when they started, maybe wishing they hadn't asked The mini panel is a good example. That was your idea, as was the PC based dispatching. Joe seems to just want to run trains.

I would rather have extra capacity that I never use than to realize I would like to have just a little more capacity and not be able to get it without spending a lot of money, especially if I could have had that extra capacity for about the same money.

I guess that depends on how you define "a lot of money" But the truth is, once you get started with DCC stuff the noble sentiment of "I just want something basic" usually falls by the wayside pretty quick. I had an Empire Builder, a couple of DT-100R's, a DT 400R, and some UT-1's, plus a slew of UP's and radio gear. My original intent was the EB and maybe an extra throttle. That lasted about a month. If it was me, and a 15 x 15 layout with 4 trains max, I wouldn't buy either a Powercab or a Zephyr. I'd buy a full boat system and add throttles as I needed them, but that's me That way, you're prepared for any eventuality.

I'd suggest Joe get his hands on both systems. That's the best way to choose.

 

[CSX Robert]

After re-reading my original post about the Power Cab having a "very-limited" command station, I realize that I did not specify that that limit was the number of throttles, so I can see how someone reading it could think I was talking about other command station features. I still stand by my statement that it is very limited, after all the whole driving force behind DCC was multiple users controlling multiple trains on the same track, so I consider, and I think a lot of people would agree, a command station that can only have two throttle is very limited. I should have, however, specified what that limit is.

...
OK, but now we're talking about what you want, not answering Joe's question. That's the bad thing about asking "what should I buy. We'll all tell the poster what we like. I'm trying to stay focused on what he asked, where you seem to be talking about what you need to run your layout. It's no big thing, I just like to try and be careful of new modelers...

Well actually, I was trying to stay focused on Joe's questions, until you asked "what does a 12 or 20 throttle limit bring to the table really? How many non club layouts have you visited that required 20 throttles, or even 12?" Since I have never visited any non club layouts, I thought the best way to answer this would be to give an example of how my mid-sized layout, that may initially appear to be within the capabilities of the Power Cab Smart Booster, will easily surpass it's capabilities.

...You can give them too much information and they walk away more confused than when they started, maybe wishing they hadn't asked The mini panel is a good example. That was your idea, as was the PC based dispatching. Joe seems to just want to run trains.
...

You can also give them to little information and they can end up frustrated and spending more money than necessary.

...
I want to make my layout come alive with all the neat sound effects and everything else that dcc offers.
...

This statement (the bold being my emphasis) makes me think that Joe might want more than to just run trains. No, Joe never mentions the Mini Panel or PC based dispatching, but then again, he may have never heard of them. I would hate for him to max out a Smart Booster, then learn about one of these additional features and decide he wants one, only to realize he can not use it without upgrading to a Power House Pro.

 

[Espeefan]

Well Robert, you and I whaling on each other won't solve much, and maybe even turn folks off. Not where I was headed. To me, the Bachmann EZ Command has a limited command station. The Number of cabs is something the user has to decide. Either the Powercab or the Zephyr will do what Joe wants as I read his post. He should check out both, and possibly even MRC's Prodigy Advance 2. I don't own one, but have heard good things about it's ease of use and expandability elsewhere on this forum.

I do disagree with you some on DCC serving to max out operators. Digitrax's original slogan was "Run your trains, not your track", remember? DCC freed us from the huge complex block control panel and it's associated wiring.

Side question: Not being a Zephyr owner, to get to 12 or 20 throttles you'd need to add a booster or two, yes? Maybe Joe should look at all of the components he'd need so he'd have an idea of total system cost. You can get sandbagged by a low starter system price tag, and forget about the cost for the extra throttles and other infrastructure.

My real recommendation to anyone getting into DCC would be to stay away from the starter systems. I would buy the most capable system I could afford. Treat it like you're buying a computer...that is after all what these things are. Buy the biggest most feature packed unit you can squeeze out of your wallet and don't look back. You'll be covered no matter what you decide to do. Go cheap and you risk underbuying, and spending the same or more in the long run as if you'd bought the higher end system to begin with. We aren't talking about that much money. The price of a sound equipped steamer or a pair of nice non sound diesels would about cover it, and none of us ever have a problem coughing up for those, do we? Guess how I know this?

 

[joed2323]

guys you are fine discussing your differences of what you think suits you or me or somebody else.

Long story short your right i dont know much about what you guys talked about, but im not gonna run away scared and quit doing what i want to do, i will do it how i want, it might not be the right or smartest way but hey, you gotta learn somehow.

Im just glad i have you guys to help guide me to the right decision

Yes mini panel, woooo, im not sure what this is, dispatching, i have a idea.

Your right maybe i dont know all the bells and whistles to dcc.

Some say to stay away from starter sets. really im trying just to get my trains running, i would like 2 throttles, but i dont think they sell kits with 2 throttles??

Does going with something with more amps help me incase hey, down the road i found out more about what i can add to my system, and going power cab route i would max it out in a HURRY?

Cost is a issue for me, because im starting from scratch in ho. its not like i have a collection of trains.. i recently spent 400 dollars on track, and im trying to get locos/ cars/ structures kind of at once, with a system to run my trains.

Im trying to keep cost down so my old lady doesnt turn around and say wtf, look at how much money your spending... bla bla bla...

So yes i cant go out and buy a 4-600 dollar system and justify to my old lady yea im buying these 2 200 dollar dcc locos, all these cars, plus all these structures and so on and so on.

Im sure ive explained enuf with the issue of spending lots of cash up front.

Yes i dont think i can get what i want with spending less that 1500 to get me setup, but down the road when things cool down, then i can justify spending more money upgrading my system. so upgrade capabilities is a must with digitrax and nce.

again thanks guys

 

[CSX Robert]

...
Side question: Not being a Zephyr owner, to get to 12 or 20 throttles you'd need to add a booster or two, yes?...

How many throttles you can have before needing a booster is going to vary wildly depending on the situation. 3.5 amps divided among 20 locomotives would allow for an average of 0.175 amps per locomotive. Since many N scale locos draw less than that, you could, although not very likely, have 20 active throttles on a Zephyr Xtra, with no booster. The more engines you have on each train and the more current they draw, the fewer number of throttles before you'll need a booster.

I did an experiment a while back where I ran 9 locomotives, including a dual motored DD40AX and sound equipped Challenger, pulling trains of varying lengths and including some lighted passenger cars, on my 2.5 amp original Zephyr with no boosters.

 

[CSX Robert]

...
Some say to stay away from starter sets...

I see no reason to stay away from the starter sets as long as you are sure they fit into your future plans. I am quite confident that I will never exceed the capabilities of the Zephyr; however, even if I do it will not be money wasted. If I move to a Super Chief, I can continue to use the Zephyr as a throttle and booster. For most operations I do not care for the Zephyr's throttle, but I do like it for yard operations, and on a layout large enough to require a Super Chief I would likely want one or two anyway.

If I were an NCE user, I absolutely would get a Power Cab, even if I knew I would need the Power House Pro. You can get the Power House Pro command station, a UTP panel(this is what the throttles plug in to), and a Power Cab for only about $40 more than the Power House Pro Starter Set. This would get you everything in the starter set(the Power Cab would operate as a Pro Cab on the Power House) plus you could use the Power Cab with it's power panel for workbench programming and testing. It would also get you going quickly for less money, and spread the cost of the system over time.

...
i would like 2 throttles, but i dont think they sell kits with 2 throttles??
...

The only system I know of that comes with two throttles is CVP Products' EasyDCC(not Bachmann's EZ DCC). The problem is they are built in to the command station, so not only are they stationary but they are close to each other and not very handy for two operators. The basic set also costs almost as much as some of the other starter sets with an additional throttle. To be fair, however, the basic set includes the full blown command station, they do not have a "starter" command station.

I don't think any one has mentioned it, but the Zephyr does come with two "Jump ports." These are designed to let you attach a DC power pack to the Zephyr to use as a throttle. If you have one, then you could have a second throttle out of the box. It would be a stationary throttle, but you could at least wire it up a distance away from the Zephyr to have room for two operators. If you are at all handy with electronics, there are even plans on the internet to build jump port throttles for just a few dollars, and these can be made to be tethered instead of stationary. There are some limitations to the jump ports - you can not select a loco or control it's functions from the throttle, these actions have to be done on the Zephyr console, but it is an inexpensive way to get a couple extra usable throttles.

 

[waltr]

Another advantage of a DCC controller with more Amps is with Reverse loop and Frog polarity switching. With more Amps the detection of the 'short' is sooner and switching is faster.

Read the DigiTrax's tech notes on using their PM41 and AR1 with a Zephyr (not Xtra). Also what Tam Valley says about using their Frog Juicer. (see their web sites)

Just to put in my 2 cents: I use a Zephyr (8 years old) and a UT2 as a walk around throttle. This works for me and a second operator.

 

[kbkchooch]

I think there is way too much being read into all this.

Unless we know the trackplan, traffic volumes, number of operators, its all balderdash!!

NCE, Digitrax, CVP, all make good systems. Each has its fine points and each one is preferred by different people. I suggest you "sample" each. Find some folks who have them and ask to try it! Learn what limitation the each have.
You wern't told whose burgers is better, you tasted what McDonalds, Burger King and Wendy's had to offer and made up you own mind. Same here.

Listening to all this pontification, whether it be DCC or burgers, will give you gas!

 

[Espeefan]

guys you are fine discussing your differences of what you think suits you or me or somebody else.

Long story short your right i dont know much about what you guys talked about, but im not gonna run away scared and quit doing what i want to do, i will do it how i want, it might not be the right or smartest way but hey, you gotta learn somehow.

Im just glad i have you guys to help guide me to the right decision

Yes mini panel, woooo, im not sure what this is, dispatching, i have a idea.

Your right maybe i dont know all the bells and whistles to dcc.

Some say to stay away from starter sets. really im trying just to get my trains running, i would like 2 throttles, but i dont think they sell kits with 2 throttles??

Does going with something with more amps help me incase hey, down the road i found out more about what i can add to my system, and going power cab route i would max it out in a HURRY?

Cost is a issue for me, because im starting from scratch in ho. its not like i have a collection of trains.. i recently spent 400 dollars on track, and im trying to get locos/ cars/ structures kind of at once, with a system to run my trains.

Im trying to keep cost down so my old lady doesnt turn around and say wtf, look at how much money your spending... bla bla bla...

So yes i cant go out and buy a 4-600 dollar system and justify to my old lady yea im buying these 2 200 dollar dcc locos, all these cars, plus all these structures and so on and so on.

Im sure ive explained enuf with the issue of spending lots of cash up front.

Yes i dont think i can get what i want with spending less that 1500 to get me setup, but down the road when things cool down, then i can justify spending more money upgrading my system. so upgrade capabilities is a must with digitrax and nce.

again thanks guys

You're welcome! I'd agree with Karl and say try the systems out. If all you want is 2 throttles, you could do the Powercab. If you want 4, you'd need the Powercab + smart booster + three cabs, and you'd be maxed out. It's the total cost of everything you want that counts. You could do something similar with Digitrax as well, but look at the cost of the extra throttles. The LHS can help you with a shopping list, because it's pretty easy to get to $4-600.00 if you buy any starter set and extra throttles. This mostly depends on you and your layout, how it runs, your long range planning. Try before you buy if at all possible.

 

[Trussrod]

Say Joed,

NCE makes a very nice product and while I'd prefer a radio controlled Cab due to the freedom of movement they offer I believe their tethered units are the next best choice with as with a layout the size of what you have it important to be able to move around with your loco which gives you the feel of being right in the Engineers seat!

So along with some very good pricing of the various NCE Power Cabs I also have the full line of their other products too like their PCP Panels so you can move a tethered Cab around etc. So if that's the system you like, let me know.

 

[joed2323]

For those who might care or wonder what i chose...

I just ordered a nce power cab from modeltrainstuff. Cant wait to get it home

 

[waltr]

Ok, decision made. Now let the fun begin.

 

[bristolman]

dcc controller

i looked and i read before i decided on the digitrax zephyr xtra . the one big deciding thing for me was the 3amps . want to run 2 maybe 3 and also be able to run dc until i can afford the dcc engines . right now ive spent close to 400.00 and dont even have any track down . as another member stated the track wiring for dcc is easier than dc so that was another deciding factor . have to look at used dcc engines though.
mike

 

[pacbelt]

For those who might care or wonder what i chose...

I just ordered a nce power cab from modeltrainstuff. Cant wait to get it home

Congrats! That's a great, expandable system! That's what I started with, and when I moved up to the 5 amp Power Pro system, my original Power Cab handheld moved right over as an extra throttle I didn't have to buy!

Feel free to ask questions as you get used to it!


Carmine, modeling the HO Scale Pacific Belt RR since 1975!

 

[Iron Horseman]

Does any unit come with 2 throttles or a way for 2 ppl to play out of the box?

The CVP EasyDCC system comes with two throttles built into the main command unit.
http://www.cvpusa.com/easydcc_system.php
While it is "good" (possibly one of the best), unfortunately it is neither "cheap" nor a "starter" unit.

EDIT - sorry when I posted this I did not see the other 3 pages of replies.

 

[joed2323]

Im satisfied with purchasing the nce power cab. I think its perfect for what i have going on

 

[deeretrain]

The BIG difference between the two systems is the NCE is so much more user friendly than the Digitrax. Try using them at home or club layouts &/or your LHS before you buy anything. But since you're just starting out have a look here for a couple of wireless DCC radio systems that don't power the locos thru the track:
http://www.railroad-line.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=35705

I'll probably agree with your post because I chose the digitrax super chief system which is working fine but for me it's confusing as heck at times when I need to do more than dasic operation especially when you don't use it on a daily basis and you tend to forget how you access and change cv's for your LoCos. So yes I'v heard NCE is more user friendly and I would love to try there system to find out for myself.