Glue (or Cement)

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GeeTee

Well-Known Member
And how you determine that the margins are too high when you don't know what they are? Yeah a bottle of Testors liquid cement used to be 25 cents, and a tube of airplane glue used to be 15 cents back when I started building models. Freight car kits were $3.95. A weeks pay was $50-75 bucks, a new car cost $2,000 and you could buy a house for 12 grand. It's not 1961 anymore.
I do know what the cost of styrene is https://www.spglobal.com/platts/en/...-styrene-margins-turn-negative-as-prices-slip they'll pay you to take it and that was before the virus, i do know what the cost of can of acetone is I purchased one from home depot 2 weeks ago at retail , I know what a bottle to put it in cost I purchased some from hobby lobby last week retail.

I know what MY costs are , and thats all I need to know , what their cost margins are are irrelevant , They either beat my cost / time or they dont get my money , I 'm not a charity or a philanthropic organization .

Those freight car kits I purchased 6 months ago for $2 bucks each ...assembled , The metal ones I paid $90 for 17 at Christmas. I haven't even opened all the boxes. I have yet to pay over $5 for a Shinohara /Peco or Mark 1 Atlas Turnouts . and I have purchased over 20 the last year.

Some of us, weren't born with silver spoons in our mouths , Us less fortunates couldn't afford fancy plastic , had to make our buildings out of packaging and construction paper.

You are right about one thing , I would rather spend $75 on a good used Atlas RS3 than glue , I can't pull a train with glue. I don't need the sound.
And if I another $75 extra I would double head. I also think that give a choice Union Pacific would rather have their money tied up in motive power than glue.

1989 Athean box $4.25 , Honda Civic DX New $9000

2020 Honda Civic $18000 ?(2X) Athearn Box ? (does it include air bags ,and meet CARB emission requirements and OBD2?) I bet t does include all the interest to service the debt from the mergers ,acquisitions and bankruptcies for Horizon. Dies do cost money but not nearly as much as bankruptcy.

It aint 1989 either.

If price /performance of 3D printers improves , things will change and those margins will come under significant pressure. Especially if there is an open source model initiative.It would surprise me if thats not one of the reasons that MTH is trying to fold their tent and get out while they still have some percieved value.
 

Espeefan

Well-Known Member
I do know what the cost of styrene is https://www.spglobal.com/platts/en/...-styrene-margins-turn-negative-as-prices-slip they'll pay you to take it and that was before the virus, i do know what the cost of can of acetone is I purchased one from home depot 2 weeks ago at retail , I know what a bottle to put it in cost I purchased some from hobby lobby last week retail.

I know what MY costs are , and thats all I need to know , what their cost margins are are irrelevant , They either beat my cost / time or they dont get my money , I 'm not a charity or a philanthropic organization .

Those freight car kits I purchased 6 months ago for $2 bucks each ...assembled , The metal ones I paid $90 for 17 at Christmas. I haven't even opened all the boxes. I have yet to pay over $5 for a Shinohara /Peco or Mark 1 Atlas Turnouts . and I have purchased over 20 the last year.

Some of us, weren't born with silver spoons in our mouths , Us less fortunates couldn't afford fancy plastic , had to make our buildings out of packaging and construction paper.

You are right about one thing , I would rather spend $75 on a good used Atlas RS3 than glue , I can't pull a train with glue. I don't need the sound.
And if I another $75 extra I would double head. I also think that give a choice Union Pacific would rather have their money tied up in motive power than glue.

1989 Athean box $4.25 , Honda Civic DX New $9000

2020 Honda Civic $18000 ?(2X) Athearn Box ? (does it include air bags ,and meet CARB emission requirements and OBD2?) I bet t does include all the interest to service the debt from the mergers ,acquisitions and bankruptcies for Horizon. Dies do cost money but not nearly as much as bankruptcy.

It aint 1989 either.

If price /performance of 3D printers improves , things will change and those margins will come under significant pressure. Especially if there is an open source model initiative.It would surprise me if thats not one of the reasons that MTH is trying to fold their tent and get out while they still have some percieved value.
Ok so I’ve clearly upset you here which wasn’t my intention. Like I said if you have the time have at it. I’m not sure how effective acetone is as a solvent for gluing. Jazz dad mentioned he had less than satisfactory results with it. MEK is gone in most areas as well, and all you can get is a substitute. Since we’re now comparing car costs with freight car kit Costs instead of indexing the cost of everything for inflation it’s probably time to end the discussion. It’s a bottle of glue.
 

GeeTee

Well-Known Member
Ok so I’ve clearly upset you here which wasn’t my intention. Like I said if you have the time have at it. I’m not sure how effective acetone is as a solvent for gluing. Jazz dad mentioned he had less than satisfactory results with it. MEK is gone in most areas as well, and all you can get is a substitute. Since we’re now comparing car costs with freight car kit Costs instead of indexing the cost of everything for inflation it’s probably time to end the discussion. It’s a bottle of glue.
You haven't upset me in the least , In fact I look forward to the next opportunity to discuss this further with you if you like. And your the one that brought up the subject of cost of freight cars Thats all on you.
 
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Espeefan

Well-Known Member
You haven't upset me in the least , In fact I look forward to the next opportunity to discuss this further with you if you like. And your the one that brought up the subject of cost of freight cars Thats all on you.
OK. It's sometimes hard to tell just by reading text. Fair enough.

And your the one that brought up the subject of cost of freight cars Thats all on you.
Well, actually I brought up the costs of things in general as well as income to illustrate the differences in costs now vs costs then (indexing for inflation). It takes $8.58 in today's dollars to buy what $1.00 bought in 1961. You narrowed it to cars only which is a, shall we say, less than valid comparison. Additionally you quoted the spot price of styrene which is pretty useless for this discussion. That price is per metric ton, in its as manufactured form, a liquid. I doubt you can go to the hobby shop, stroll over to the Evergreen rack, pick out a few items, go to the register and ask them how much they'll pay you to take it home! :) I think what you actually meant is polystyrene, which is quite different from styrene.

All that being said my main concern is the end result. You may be able to get things to stick together using Acetone, or as JazzDad related, using lacquer thinner. Both will dissolve plastic. My concern would be more about the strength of the resulting joint. How long does the plastic stay dissolved? Long enough to form a good bond? It may work just fine for something that won't be handled. I had some pretty poor experiences with Tenax some years back. It stuck the parts together well enough, but the joint strength was lacking. My freight cars were shedding grab irons and stirrup steps at an alarming rate. It also had the nasty tendency to attack the painted parts of the kits, even when applied with a Touch-N-Flow. There are other chemicals in these cements besides the base component that will affect the reaction with the plastic. I keep acetone here for use in cleaning my airbrushes when I spray Tru Color paint. It works very well for that, but if I try and use it to thin their paint, I get less satisfactory results than when I use their thinner. I wish that wasn't so, their thinner is expensive! It seems that there are other things in the thinner besides acetone that effect how well the paint applies and dries. It all comes down to risk. If you're working with cheap materials and things that are easily replaced, sure, why not experiment? If you're assembling an expensive kit, well, I don't know about you, but I'm going to be less inclined to risk problems for such a small savings. There are so many variations in plastics today that with anything new or different I'm going to stick with what the kit manufacturers recommend at least on the first try. A failed experiment means you literally stepped over dollars to pick up pennies.

While I wasn't born with a silver spoon in my mouth either, it does appear I have a few more bucks to spend on the hobby than you at the moment. That's subject to change without notice. All it takes is a job change, a furlough, or a retirement voluntary or otherwise! Like I've said, if it works for you, that's great. All of us are going to have different perspectives on this, and I'm certainly not going to tell you how to do your hobby. I'm just going to point out the risks for those other readers following the discussion. If I wanted to save money on cements, I'd try the dollar store. You can get three tubes of superglue there for a buck, and who knows what else.
 
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GeeTee

Well-Known Member
OK. It's sometimes hard to tell just by reading text. Fair enough.



Well, actually I brought up the costs of things in general as well as income to illustrate the differences in costs now vs costs then (indexing for inflation). It takes $8.58 in today's dollars to buy what $1.00 bought in 1961. You narrowed it to cars only which is a, shall we say, less than valid comparison. Additionally you quoted the spot price of styrene which is pretty useless for this discussion. That price is per metric ton, in its as manufactured form, a liquid. I doubt you can go to the hobby shop, stroll over to the Evergreen rack, pick out a few items, go to the register and ask them how much they'll pay you to take it home! :) I think what you actually meant is polystyrene, which is quite different from styrene.

All that being said my main concern is the end result. You may be able to get things to stick together using Acetone, or as JazzDad related, using lacquer thinner. Both will dissolve plastic. My concern would be more about the strength of the resulting joint. How long does the plastic stay dissolved? Long enough to form a good bond? It may work just fine for something that won't be handled. I had some pretty poor experiences with Tenax some years back. It stuck the parts together well enough, but the joint strength was lacking. My freight cars were shedding grab irons and stirrup steps at an alarming rate. It also had the nasty tendency to attack the painted parts of the kits, even when applied with a Touch-N-Flow. There are other chemicals in these cements besides the base component that will affect the reaction with the plastic. I keep acetone here for use in cleaning my airbrushes when I spray Tru Color paint. It works very well for that, but if I try and use it to thin their paint, I get less satisfactory results than when I use their thinner. I wish that wasn't so, their thinner is expensive! It seems that there are other things in the thinner besides acetone that effect how well the paint applies and dries. It all comes down to risk. If you're working with cheap materials and things that are easily replaced, sure, why not experiment? If you're assembling an expensive kit, well, I don't know about you, but I'm going to be less inclined to risk problems for such a small savings. There are so many variations in plastics today that with anything new or different I'm going to stick with what the kit manufacturers recommend at least on the first try. A failed experiment means you literally stepped over dollars to pick up pennies.

While I wasn't born with a silver spoon in my mouth either, it does appear I have a few more bucks to spend on the hobby than you at the moment. That's subject to change without notice. All it takes is a job change, a furlough, or a retirement voluntary or otherwise! Like I've said, if it works for you, that's great. All of us are going to have different perspectives on this, and I'm certainly not going to tell you how to do your hobby. I'm just going to point out the risks for those other readers following the discussion. If I wanted to save money on cements, I'd try the dollar store. You can get three tubes of superglue there for a buck, and who knows what else.

A manufacture is not going to go into a hobby shop to by styrene . Polystyrene is simply styrene in a polymer chain . Styrene is used as the base building block for polystyrene , So yes its relevant.

Polystyrene is running about 75 cents a pound , a typical piece of rolling stock has around 4-5 oz.


Now to put things in context :


Nearest Hobby Lobby is about hour and a half. or about $20 in gas and vehicle expenses round trip.

Nearest Hobby "Model" store : hour and half or about 4 hours round trip time you sit in traffic.

Nearest Hobby store with any significant train inventory ... Houston 8 hours round trip $75 - $100 gas ,tolls,vehicle

Next Nearest Hobby store with good inventory ...Dallas 10 -12 hours round trip $150 in gas tolls another $100 + if you stay overnight.




Nearest hardware store with solvents , thinners , ect . 10min .
Nearest Home Depot ...20 min.

Acetone ...Already on hand for paints Cost $0
Left over styrene sprues from models / shipping peanuts on hand Cost $0
Total Glue Cost $0
Time to make ...A lot less than the time to go get it.

Its a No Brainer. and it will outperform most of the sub par stuff thats sold over the counter.

And putting the lid back on wont completely stop CyanoAcrylate from catalizing , Most plastics are hygroscopic , Water will migrate thru the plastic bottle over time and activate the glue. To stop it you need to put the bottle inside a glass or metal jar and pull a vacuum on it.
 

beiland

Well-Known Member
Evaporation of Tenax7

I had an interesting experience with Tenax 7. I found this adhevsive early on when I reentered the hobby a little over 12 years ago. I liked how it wicked into close spaces, and how quickly it bonded thinga so i did not have to hold it tightly for so long.

So when I had a chance to but a 'full carton' of the bottles for a dealer price I jumped on it. Then it sat for a number of years while I went off on other matters. When I went to open up that carton of bottles I found that most of it was missing,...from glass bottles ??

Apparently it can evaporate out the plastic caps even while very tight and never removed. I saw not too long ago an apparent remedy,...store the bottles upside down ??
 

Espeefan

Well-Known Member
A manufacture is not going to go into a hobby shop to by styrene . Polystyrene is simply styrene in a polymer chain . Styrene is used as the base building block for polystyrene , So yes its relevant.
Nope. Sorry. Two very different substances. Styrene is a raw material or a "building block" used in manufacturing polystyrene. It can't be substituted for it. See here: https://blog.americanchemistry.com/2014/07/what-makes-polystyrene-so-different-from-styrene-its-a-matter-of-chemistry/#:~:text=Styrene is a liquid that,shipping delicate electronics, and insulation.

Polystyrene is running about 75 cents a pound , a typical piece of rolling stock has around 4-5 oz.
Yeah, and this is relevant how exactly? I mean 75 cents a pound at what, per metric ton again? In any sort of usable form, or just bulk? Are you buying in that quantity?


Now to put things in context :


Nearest Hobby Lobby is about hour and a half. or about $20 in gas and vehicle expenses round trip.

Nearest Hobby "Model" store : hour and half or about 4 hours round trip time you sit in traffic.

Nearest Hobby store with any significant train inventory ... Houston 8 hours round trip $75 - $100 gas ,tolls,vehicle

Next Nearest Hobby store with good inventory ...Dallas 10 -12 hours round trip $150 in gas tolls another $100 + if you stay overnight.

Nearest hardware store with solvents , thinners , ect . 10min .
Nearest Home Depot ...20 min.

Acetone ...Already on hand for paints Cost $0
Left over styrene sprues from models / shipping peanuts on hand Cost $0
Total Glue Cost $0
Time to make ...A lot less than the time to go get it.
For you personally, and that's fine, however, it's not all about you. It's a general discussion from which lots of people will take different things. :) I feel for you that decent hobby shops are so far away, but there's lots of guys here that have that problem. There's always the internet hobby shops and good old Amazon Prime with free delivery! Plan properly and you'll never be caught out of stock.

Its a No Brainer. and it will outperform most of the sub par stuff thats sold over the counter.
Substandard? That's a strong word. Based on what exactly? I've never encountered a cement I'd call substandard. They all have their niches, and I've found the manufacturers are pretty good about telling you what those are. Is this maybe based your experiences? In what particular applications? I am really interested in what you're doing and how. I would be more inclined to experiment if I was working on leftover sprues and packing peanuts as opposed to, say, a Tangent freight car kit. The penalty for failure on the latter would be expensive!

And putting the lid back on wont completely stop CyanoAcrylate from catalizing , Most plastics are hygroscopic , Water will migrate thru the plastic bottle over time and activate the glue. To stop it you need to put the bottle inside a glass or metal jar and pull a vacuum on it.
Well the three tubes for a buck I mentioned are the little metal tubes, and they even come in a little resealable foil bag. I've been able to keep CA usable for a number of years just by making sure I clean the tip off after using it and making sure the cap is on tight. I've got several bottles here that are somewhere between 3 and 5 years old. To be fair I've lost a few, but always because I got lazy with the housekeeping. To be even fairer it's not as humid in Milwaukee as it is in Houston or Dallas, but I had similar experiences with CA in Birmingham AL. Keep the tip clean; put the cap on when you're done. Easy peasy!

Once again, if it works for you, that's perfectly fine, and yes on straight polystyrene it does work just fine. I'm not trying to convert you to commercial cements or saying what you're doing is wrong. ;) I'm just saying it isn’t a universal replacement. Other people's mileage will vary, and they should consider carefully before substituting.
 
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Espeefan

Well-Known Member
Evaporation of Tenax7

I had an interesting experience with Tenax 7. I found this adhevsive early on when I reentered the hobby a little over 12 years ago. I liked how it wicked into close spaces, and how quickly it bonded thinga so i did not have to hold it tightly for so long.

So when I had a chance to but a 'full carton' of the bottles for a dealer price I jumped on it. Then it sat for a number of years while I went off on other matters. When I went to open up that carton of bottles I found that most of it was missing,...from glass bottles ??

Apparently it can evaporate out the plastic caps even while very tight and never removed. I saw not too long ago an apparent remedy,...store the bottles upside down ??
I lost some the same way. It’s very volatile. It evaporated right through the plastic cap.
 

GeeTee

Well-Known Member
Nope. Sorry. Two very different substances. Styrene is a raw material or a "building block" used in manufacturing polystyrene. It can't be substituted for it. See here: https://blog.americanchemistry.com/2014/07/what-makes-polystyrene-so-different-from-styrene-its-a-matter-of-chemistry/#:~:text=Styrene is a liquid that,shipping delicate electronics, and insulation.



Yeah, and this is relevant how exactly? I mean 75 cents a pound at what, per metric ton again? In any sort of usable form, or just bulk? Are you buying in that quantity?




For you personally, and that's fine, however, it's not all about you. It's a general discussion from which lots of people will take different things. :) I feel for you that decent hobby shops are so far away, but there's lots of guys here that have that problem. There's always the internet hobby shops and good old Amazon Prime with free delivery! Plan properly and you'll never be caught out of stock.



Substandard? That's a strong word. Based on what exactly? I've never encountered a cement I'd call substandard. They all have their niches, and I've found the manufacturers are pretty good about telling you what those are. Is this maybe based your experiences? In what particular applications? I am really interested in what you're doing and how. I would be more inclined to experiment if I was working on leftover sprues and packing peanuts as opposed to, say, a Tangent freight car kit. The penalty for failure on the latter would be expensive!



Well the three tubes for a buck I mentioned are the little metal tubes, and they even come in a little resealable foil bag. I've been able to keep CA usable for a number of years just by making sure I clean the tip off after using it and making sure the cap is on tight. I've got several bottles here that are somewhere between 3 and 5 years old. To be fair I've lost a few, but always because I got lazy with the housekeeping. To be even fairer it's not as humid in Milwaukee as it is in Houston or Dallas, but I had similar experiences with CA in Birmingham AL. Keep the tip clean; put the cap on when you're done. Easy peasy!

Once again, if it works for you, that's perfectly fine, and yes on straight polystyrene it does work just fine. I'm not trying to convert you to commercial cements or saying what you're doing is wrong. ;) I'm just saying it isn’t a universal replacement. Other people's mileage will vary, and they should consider carefully before substituting.
I reiterate polystyrene is a polymer chain of styrene . Styrene is the basic monomer building block

Making polystyrene

  • 2 Polystyrene is formed from styrene through suspension polymerization, a process by which tiny drops of the monomer (in this case, styrene) are completely surrounded by water and a mucilaginous substance. Supporting and surrounding the styrene globules, the suspension agent produces uniform droplets of polystyrene.
  • 3 Next, a polymerization initiator is added to the droplets, which are suspended by heat radiation of about 212 degrees Fahrenheit (100 degrees Celsius). This results in free radicals, a group of atoms particularly likely to react with others because they contain unpaired electrons which are available for molecular bonding. Free radicals then combine at randomly to form chains of polystyrene.
  • 4 Stopping the polymerization process is difficult. Terminators are introduced to the process to end it at the appropriate time. Though variable, chain length must fall within a certain range, because polystyrene with overly long chains won't melt readily, and polystyrene with short chains will be brittle.

They may not even be using virgin polystyrene , they maybe using regrind / recycle , which would be even cheaper.

If its manufactured in large contract injection house , theyre probably getting it in barrels or or possibly by the freight car load .


Substandard as in some of us remember what real glue used to be like before the sniffers shoved it up their nose and got it outlawed , forcing the rest of us to use NON TOX and how it sucked .
 

Espeefan

Well-Known Member
I reiterate polystyrene is a polymer chain of styrene . Styrene is the basic monomer building block

Making polystyrene

  • 2 Polystyrene is formed from styrene through suspension polymerization, a process by which tiny drops of the monomer (in this case, styrene) are completely surrounded by water and a mucilaginous substance. Supporting and surrounding the styrene globules, the suspension agent produces uniform droplets of polystyrene.
  • 3 Next, a polymerization initiator is added to the droplets, which are suspended by heat radiation of about 212 degrees Fahrenheit (100 degrees Celsius). This results in free radicals, a group of atoms particularly likely to react with others because they contain unpaired electrons which are available for molecular bonding. Free radicals then combine at randomly to form chains of polystyrene.
  • 4 Stopping the polymerization process is difficult. Terminators are introduced to the process to end it at the appropriate time. Though variable, chain length must fall within a certain range, because polystyrene with overly long chains won't melt readily, and polystyrene with short chains will be brittle.

They may not even be using virgin polystyrene , they maybe using regrind / recycle , which would be even cheaper.

If its manufactured in large contract injection house , theyre probably getting it in barrels or or possibly by the freight car load .


Substandard as in some of us remember what real glue used to be like before the sniffers shoved it up their nose and got it outlawed , forcing the rest of us to use NON TOX and how it sucked .
Not arguing the manufacturing process, but you can’t substitute styrene for polystyrene. One is a liquid, the other a solid. Hence two different substance, one essentially the raw from of the other. You can’t run your car on crude oil either :) Sloppy analogy but you get the idea.

yeah non tox did suck, but I’ve always been able to,get the real stuff. I think the reason for non tox was to keep kids from sniffing the real McCoy. I don’t remember for sure, but I think if you were under 18 and unaccompanied, all they’d sell you was non toxic.
 

beiland

Well-Known Member
I believe that poster was saying that the art of turning the bottle upside down prevented the 'vapor' from contacting the lid,...only the liquid which supposedly would not migrate thru the top if real secure??

Edited: That was suppose to say lid, not lip.,...terrible typist
 
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Espeefan

Well-Known Member
I believe that poster was saying that the art of turning the bottle upside down prevented the 'vapor' from contacting the lip,...only the liquid which supposedly would not migrate thru the top if real secure??
Anything's possible. I'm not sure what was in the original Tenax. They were pretty cagey about that. I also heard in a clinic that there was some sort of a break in its availability and when it came back it wasn't the same stuff? I have a bottle of "Flex-I-File" on hand that I just bought to try out that states "For Touch-N-Flow System". The Touch-N-Flow used to be marketed with Tenax. This new stuff seems to be based on Methelyne Chloride. Not sure if its a Tenax successor, or somebody else's stuff. At any rate, I guess storing the bottles upside down is worth a try. This stuff is all very volatile, so storing it and maintaining its potency gets to be a challenge!
 

Espeefan

Well-Known Member
I've used the wood block, and I still use the shot glass. I like the "Glue Looper" they sell at train shows. It's a very useful applicator for thin CA, much better than a toothpick or wire.
 




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