DC Vs DCC


We can all name some of the greatest and most memorable model railroads of all time. Like John Allen's G&D pike operated using DC or Howard Zane's layout using DCC and the list goes on...!

Whatever operating system they used isn't what made these layouts great. It is the combination of the track plan, control panels, scenery, quality of construction, structures, rolling stock, bench work, lighting, weathering techniques and special effects that set these layouts above from the rest. Not whether or not that they used DC or DCC for the operating system.

I compare a DC system and its block control panels similar to a CTC control panel and the dispatcher remotely controlling train movements. Prototypical? Yes!
DCC allows multiable locomotives to operate in the same "block", prototypical. Yes.

It's your choice DC or DCC.

Greg
 
No matter if you like it or you don't, DCC is part of the hobby. It's here to stay, at least for the foreseeable future. Some like it, some don't. If you have a shelf layout & run one loco at a time, it probably isn't for you, unless you like sound and want to play the loco like an instrument. I've used it on my own home layout, and at clubs. It definitely adds another dimension to the hobby, especially to operations. Those who say DC is better for things like momentum probably aren't as well versed at programming as they might be. There is a lot of setup possible, especially with diesel sound decoders. If you just run them at factory default settings changing only the address, well, you aren't getting the full benefit of the software. That's your fault, not the technology's. One thing I will say: I've been gradually moving away from sound. It's nice, but I don't have to have it in everything. The last two models I painted got DCC without sound. These were brass models that I didn't want to make structural changes to. I also don't like to open brass Vanderbilt tenders. I have plenty of noisemakers, so if I'm in the mood for sound I simply choose appropriately. I've also bought several locos DCC ready and added DCC/sound later to take the sting out of the acquisition. It's great to have the choice. It's a great time to be in the hobby. The Golden Age of Model Railroading is right now. The best days of your life are right now.
 
santafewillie said:
Then there is the sound aspect.
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And there is a connection that I don't understand. Why do so many (most?) people associate sound with DCC? Sound systems (good ones too) existed long before DCC. Even after sound DCC units came out some of the other sound systems were far superior (thinking of the original SoundTraxx and Phoenix Sound). A guess would be that the price point of sound came down to the "model railroading for the masses level" about the same time as DCC was introduced as a standard. I guess also at this same time the size of sound processors had come down to manageable levels that it was more accessible to smaller trains. So accessible, that it could be added to the same board as the control unit. The fate of a having two things happen simultaneously has forever linked them in history?

In my opinion the only real connection between DCC and sound is that DCC had some left over functions that could be dedicated to controlling the on-board sounds rather than having to have a separate sound controller (thinking of the massive PFM and Grizzly Mountain sound console units).
 
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Iron Horseman said:
And there is a connection that I don't understand. Why do so many (most?) people associate sound with DCC? Sound systems (good ones too) existed long before DCC. Even after sound DCC units came out some of the other sound systems were far superior (thinking of the original SoundTraxx and Phoenix Sound). A guess would be that the price point of sound came down to the "model railroading for the masses level" about the same time as DCC was introduced as a standard. I guess also at this same time the size of sound processors had come down to manageable levels that it was more accessible to smaller trains. So accessible, that it could be added to the same board as the control unit. The fate of a having two things happen simultaneously has forever linked them in history?

In my opinion the only real connection between DCC and sound is that DCC had some left over functions that could be dedicated to controlling the on-board sounds rather than having to have a separate sound controller (thinking of the massive PFM and Grizzly Mountain sound console units).
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Not meaning to associate DCC with sound necessarily, it's that it's one of the "good" things many users bring up about DCC, as was mentioned in the introductory post. While I am not familiar with Grizzly Mountain, I do remember the massive PFM consoles.
By the way, I also agree with an earlier post by Mark, that the title of this topic should have been "DC or DCC", not versus.

Willie
 
Iron Horseman said:
And there is a connection that I don't understand. Why do so many (most?) people associate sound with DCC? Sound systems (good ones too) existed long before DCC. Even after sound DCC units came out some of the other sound systems were far superior (thinking of the original SoundTraxx and Phoenix Sound). A guess would be that the price point of sound came down to the "model railroading for the masses level" about the same time as DCC was introduced as a standard. I guess also at this same time the size of sound processors had come down to manageable levels that it was more accessible to smaller trains. So accessible, that it could be added to the same board as the control unit. The fate of a having two things happen simultaneously has forever linked them in history?

In my opinion the only real connection between DCC and sound is that DCC had some left over functions that could be dedicated to controlling the on-board sounds rather than having to have a separate sound controller (thinking of the massive PFM and Grizzly Mountain sound console units).
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Sound is associated with DCC because it became almost affordable when sound in DCC decoders became widely available. I was involved in the hobby back when PFM had sound units. I didn't pay much attention to sound systems because they were way beyond my budget. So, at least I understand that sound is not a new thing.
 
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Mark, I did run a PFM sound system for steam locomotives and really liked it. You could change the pitch of the whistle from high to low for smaller to larger locomotives and I really liked the way way could modulate the whistle the way the steam engineers could do on the real thing. My uncles and cousins could actually tell who was running a locomotive by the way he worked the whistle. There were twoo reasons that I stopped using the PFM system. First was the problem getting the modules to put into the locomotives. I ended up having to build my own. The second reason was the size of the control panel. In order to be able to use it for switching, I had to mount it on the facia in the isle and kept walking into it. There were times that I ran out of colorful words. The PFM system was retired and walk around throttles were installed and the layout went quiet.
 
montanan said:
I did run a PFM sound system for steam locomotives and really liked it. You could change the pitch of the whistle from high to low for smaller to larger locomotives and I really liked the way way could modulate the whistle the way the steam engineers could do on the real thing. My uncles and cousins could actually tell who was running a locomotive by the way he worked the whistle.
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That is one thing the DCC vendors have not yet provided - a playable whistle. I believe it was Digitrax that promised playable whistles a while back (10 years ago already?) when they introduced their sound bugs. The units I've used seem to even have trouble with providing a long and short blast. Must be some technical issue (besides the Fourier transformations) providing an analog control with a digital circuit.
 
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Ah the old PFM system, yes the whistles were pretty cool!
I actually have a couple systems sitting in the garage, with tons of modules and speakers!
 
Bruette said:
This thread just keeps getting better and better!!!
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My first playable whistle was a Lionel 6466 whistling tender and a 90watt #1033 dual handle transformer. It was not quite enough power but I discovered if I got a good run, while the loco was close to the feed wires I could make it Whooouoowhoowhoo just like I wanted it to.

Now there is another thing that the tinplate high-rail taught me. In 1972 I built an outside layout that was pretty large. Steel track is really bad as far as conducting electricity. Talk about slow down on the far end of the layout (forget even trying to blow the horn), so I made a power bus of copper wire that ran along side the track and feed it about every 6 feet (10 sections of track).
 
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Although I am firmly into DCC, my layout was wired for DC control with 11 individual blocks and a control panel with block switches and turnout toggles for controlling all my remotely powered turnouts. When I decided to go DCC and bought my Digitrax Zephyr, I simply installed it where throttle # 1 was located and wired it in. This was sort of an experiment to see if the DCC system would work through the old block system. It did and I have seen no reason to re-wire my layout with a Buss wire and feeders. Although I could still operate DC locomotives if I wanted, my DC powered locomotives are relegated to the work bench, awaiting DCC decoder installations and my DC throttle is only used to rotate my turntable. So, I have found, on my maybe medium sized layout, that switching to DCC was a very simple process and I'm guessing other peoples DC layouts could just as easily be converted to DCC, too.
 
Mark - My friend who is a DCC nut did show how easy it would be to convert my layout to DCC. All of the wiring is in place. Block switches he said could be left where they are. For a layout my size, he did say that a booster would be needed also. This was a number of years ago when I was considering the change, but as I have mentioned, even he said that for a one man operation, and being that the layout was designed for switching, that I really wouldn't gain much as I rarely run more than one locomotive at a time. My biggest concern was having to convert around 30 locomotives. My old Atlas locomotives would need to have a pretty good chunk of the weight removed to make room for a decoder and eben more if I wanted to install speakers.

Some of the locomotives did have room, but with all the work I did custom painting all of my Atlas Alco units, there is no way I would want to try to replace them and the time it would take to install the decoders would be considerable. I was right on the edge but after a lot of consideration, I decided to stay with what I have. There are some times whenthe grand kids come over and want to run trains that DCC might be nice, but being that my main line is a single track, operations would be difficult with a 6 year old.

What I have now works for me just fine and look at the money I won't have to spend on DCC equipment and decoders.

With no plans to build another layout I will remain a DC operator.
 
Chet: I agree on your philosophy on staying with and operating the layout with DC. If you planning a new layout then maybe DCC would be an alternative to a DC system, but with your interest being switching, why change?

BTW, I have many of the older Atlas Classic locomotives with DCC non-sound decoders installed after they were purchased and more new in their boxes, but I have the decoders waiting to be installed. The Atlas 342 non-sound decoder is a drop-in replacement for the original Atlas light board. I can purchase them for around $20 and installation is shorter than removing the chassis and couplers.

Adding sound would require some internal changes which I will not do. I been purchasing Atlas Classic locomotives with Sound Lok and I get that original ALCO sound, minus the smoking exhaust.

Just my 2 cents worth to this thread.

Thanks.

Greg
 
Greg - If you have any of the Atlas Classic Alco RS units, you know how much work would have to be done to under the shell to add a decoder. Not much room at all. They are probably some of the nicest running locomotives I have seen.
 
Chet: My Atlas Classic Alco RS units were some of my earliest attempts to install DCC decoders. The original light board pops off and the new Atlas 342 decoder pops back in-place of the original light board. I soldier the motor and lighting leads. That's it.

The atlas 342 decoders are dual mode and can be run on either DC or DCC by setting the position of a jumper wire on the decoder.

Please know I'm not trying to sell Atlas DCC products.

Greg

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montanan said:
Greg - If you have any of the Atlas Classic Alco RS units, you know how much work would have to be done to under the shell to add a decoder. Not much room at all. They are probably some of the nicest running locomotives I have seen.
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That is a stroll down memory lane. In 1984 I decided to add decoder to one of the at the time brand new RS-3s. This was in the days before pre-fabricated single chip decoders so the smallest one was the size of Road Island. I had to cut the decoder into three parts and use jumper wires to connect the traces. I mounted one part under each of the windows in the cab and another to the inside roof. I had to remove lamp and the light bars just to get the wires through(would have done this anyway). I mounted the power transistors (about 1/2" square and 1/8" thick each) hanging down from the light board into the space where the fly wheels are. But at least I didn't have to remove any of the nose and tail weights. Took about $200 and about 20 hours.

Contrasting that to one I did just a while back. As Greg indicated. Open the shell, remove the factory "circuit" board, drop in a NCE DA-SR, replace the wire retainers (or solder), add two new LEDs for directional lighting, close the shell. The hardest part was the LED conversion. Took about $20 and 20 minutes including the prep & clean up time.
 
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I have an RS-1 I shoehorned sound into. Challenging but worth it. The Alco 539 decoder sounds great. I had to scratch a speaker enclosure and it fires downward through the trailing truck. I lost the rear headlight, but I don't mind. The Illinois Terminal ran them long hood forward. Would I repeat the project? Hmmmmm... Depends.
 
montanan said:
...when I was considering the change, ...

What I have now works for me just fine and look at the money I won't have to spend on DCC equipment and decoders.

With no plans to build another layout I will remain a DC operator.
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Chet no offense intended, but if you do reconsider changing over to DCC I will have to suggest you get a check up from the neck up!

That would be like painting over the Mona Lisa because you wanted to use modern paint.
 
Great thread gentlemen. It's a real pleasure for me a "sophomore" student of model railroading to read the comments of the grand masters of the hobby, thanks everybody!
 
DCC Starter set prices, prices from M.B. Klien (ModelTrainStuff):

Bachmann EZ Command DCC System $99.99

Digitrax Zephyr DCS 51 $169.99

MRC 1420 Prodigy Express 2 DCC System $99.99

NCE 524025 Power Cab $149.99

Both Bachmann and MRC have other systems at similar; or, even lower prices, which are not shown. I can only speak to the quality of the Digitrax Zephyr, having owned one for more that 15 years. My guess is that the NCE system is also of similar quality because of the popularity of NCE systems.

Bare minimum decoder prices (again from M.B. Klien). The criteria for selection on this list, is low price. None are sound equipped, some may have Back EMF:

Bachmann: 44913 EZ Command Decoder $19.99, 3 pack for $59.99

Digitrax: DH166D $15.99
DH165KO, Fits: Kato, Stewart and Atlas locos. $21.59

MRC HO 1651 $29.19
Most of what MRC offers are sound decoders.

NCE D13W single $15.99
Same as above, 4 pack $59.99

Bachmann, Digitrax, MRC and NCE where chosen simply for demonstration purposes. There are far more manufacturers of DCC products which have not been shown . None of the products suggested should be purchased without the buyer using their own due diligence in making a selection. The purpose of this post was to show how inexpensively a model railroader could get into DCC.
 
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