Battery Powered Full Size Locomotive


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beiland

Well-Known Member
Aluminum-Ion batteries rather than Lithium-Ion

What if these batteries become reality,...


https://newatlas.com/energy/gmg-graphene-aluminium-ion-battery/


Firstly, a power density around 7,000 W/kg. Power density puts a number on how quickly a cell can charge and discharge. With current lithium-ion batteries sitting between 250-700 W/kg, this is a huge leap, and it puts the aluminum-ion battery nearly on the level of ultracapacitors, which can deliver around 12,000-14,000 W/kg.

This could result in battery power for our model trains as well?
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That one reference is old 2007 stuff with lead acid batteries !!....and the waterfront electrics is older that that !!

Batteries have come a long way since that, and progress seems to be exponential now.
 
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beiland said:
That one reference is old 2007 stuff with lead acid batteries !!....and the waterfront electrics is older that that !!

Batteries have come a long way since that, and progress seems to be exponential now.
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They said it was the world's first battery electric locomotive .... obvious BS .
 
I agree there is a lot of BS in reporting these days, so one must try and filter thru it.

But I think most would agree there is lots of work going on to develop better batteries, and some of it pretty exciting.

I believe I recall a new 'solid-state' electrical energy storage technology having come up recently, but I have not had the time to explore it more. Wasn't it solid state hard drives replacing those spinning disc that made a big jump forward? Aren't a lot of our memory sticks of a solid state technology??
 
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Wasn't it solid state hard drives replacing those spinning disc that made a big jump forward? Aren't a lot of our memory sticks of a solid state technology??

Bell Labs introduced the solid state transistor in the fifties. Spinning drive technology( ferromagnetic storage) was developed after that ( I believe Winchesters start showing up in the seventies). Hard drives are still used ,the cost per byte storage is still cheaper than flash , last time I checked and silicon wafer space is running out , IBM was exploring going to 3D wafers to increase capacity.

You usually need several molecules to make a transistor to store a bit. Theoretically ,Ferromagnetic ( Spinning drive )you only need to orient one molecule to store a bit( you could store more per molecule if you can control the oreitation accurately enough) . Flash, right now ,is just faster access wise .Spinning Nano machine hard drives could become a reality.


The research in to batteries is not necessarily to make a better battery but to make a cheaper or safer battery . Battery technology is reaching its limits .Lithium is the lightest metal on periodic table so they usually make the lightest batteries for a given energy density ( watt hours/kg ) . When it comes to life expectancy NiCd is still the king (I have several NiCds that are well in excess of 10 years)

One of the biggest problems with Li ion battery technology is safety , Lithium self ignites at room temperature when exposed to Oxygen (O2). It will burn faster when exposed to water (like from a firetruck trying to put the fire out) . Lithium will rip the O2 right off the H2O molecule . All that has to happen is the membrane gets punctured . If they are charged incorrectly they can out gas and burst the membrane causing a fire to start.

Aluminum Ion has almost as many problems , Aluminum just doesn't burn when exposed to Oxygen or water,making it a little safer.


For large power requirements the future lies in fuel cell ,direct conversion of "fuel" into electrical energy. Where "fuel" is chemically stored energy preferably in a stable liquid form .https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_212_submarine
 
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And where do they plan to get all the electricity to recharge all these batteries? Remember: wind and solar are useless on a calm night.
 
flyboy2610 said:
And where do they plan to get all the electricity to recharge all these batteries? Remember: wind and solar are useless on a calm night.
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I think the main goal as far as locomotives go , is to satisfy the emissions regulations California has put in place (urban areas ) . I don't think the intention is to produce them in vast quantities.
 
flyboy2610 said:
And where do they plan to get all the electricity to recharge all these batteries? Remember: wind and solar are useless on a calm night.
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Well. One could say to that. Did we, when Lead/acid batteries were the be all and apparent end all, expect to have Lithium batteries. I see ads now from Volvo cars stating they will be only producing electric powered vehicles from now on. We only say "Oh, that'll never happen" because it just hasn't yet. But you can bet your bottom dollar, more than one is working on it. Then next thing it's common place.
 
GeeTee said:
Wasn't it solid state hard drives replacing those spinning disc that made a big jump forward? Aren't a lot of our memory sticks of a solid state technology??

Bell Labs introduced the solid state transistor in the fifties. Spinning drive technology( ferromagnetic storage) was developed after that ( I believe Winchesters start showing up in the seventies). Hard drives are still used ,the cost per byte storage is still cheaper than flash , last time I checked and silicon wafer space is running out , IBM was exploring going to 3D wafers to increase capacity.

You usually need several molecules to make a transistor to store a bit. Theoretically ,Ferromagnetic ( Spinning drive )you only need to orient one molecule to store a bit( you could store more per molecule if you can control the oreitation accurately enough) . Flash, right now ,is just faster access wise .Spinning Nano machine hard drives could become a reality.


The research in to batteries is not necessarily to make a better battery but to make a cheaper or safer battery . Battery technology is reaching its limits .Lithium is the lightest metal on periodic table so they usually make the lightest batteries for a given energy density ( watt hours/kg ) . When it comes to life expectancy NiCd is still the king (I have several NiCds that are well in excess of 10 years)

One of the biggest problems with Li ion battery technology is safety , Lithium self ignites at room temperature when exposed to Oxygen (O2). It will burn faster when exposed to water (like from a firetruck trying to put the fire out) . Lithium will rip the O2 right off the H2O molecule . All that has to happen is the membrane gets punctured . If they are charged incorrectly they can out gas and burst the membrane causing a fire to start.

Aluminum Ion has almost as many problems , Aluminum just doesn't burn when exposed to Oxygen or water,making it a little safer.


For large power requirements the future lies in fuel cell ,direct conversion of "fuel" into electrical energy. Where "fuel" is chemically stored energy preferably in a stable liquid form .https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_212_submarine
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That was a VERY INTERESTING reply. You seem to have quite a bit of knowledge about the 'mechanics' of the subjects.

I found this announcement very interesting,..

I also found your submarine reference very interesting, since I once worked in this field....long ago.

Fisker Inc. has ‘completely dropped’ solid-state batteries
https://www.theverge.com/platform/a...nterview-solid-state-batteries-ocean-suv-spac
 
beiland said:
That was a VERY INTERESTING reply. You seem to have quite a bit of knowledge about the 'mechanics' of the subjects.

I found this announcement very interesting,..

I also found your submarine reference very interesting, since I once worked in this field....long ago.

Fisker Inc. has ‘completely dropped’ solid-state batteries
https://www.theverge.com/platform/a...nterview-solid-state-batteries-ocean-suv-spac
Click to expand...

I worked in an R+D lab as electronic design engineer for several years. Some of this stuff has come up before in the lab , and occasionally cross discipline stuff comes up . In small lab , when you don't have an "expert" in field , your forced to educate yourself and become one.

I've seen several younger guys come in , and they think technology is going to save the day ,and they think its going to happen tomorrow , I'm still waiting for the google car. Jimmy Carter told me that solar cells were going to save my ass 50 years ago , GaAs were the best at the time ~28%
conversion efficiency , GaAs last I checked were still the most efficient , We can make cheaper solar cells but not necessarily better.

The irony of R&D .....

"Do you guys know what the hell your doing ?" ,

"NO" ..."if we did we wouldn't need to do research"


If someone has US government grant money in their hand for conducting research , its because they DON'T know what their doing, if they did they wouldn't need the grant . Something to remember when you see some scientist being interviewed by network news .

Its is not about what you know , its about knowing how to go about finding the answer,


As far as batteries go this is a decent little primer https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/video/search-for-the-super-battery/ if you haven't already seen it.
 
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GeeTee said:
I've seen several younger guys come in , and they think technology is going to save the day ,and they think its going to happen tomorrow
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tootnkumin said:
Did we, when Lead/acid batteries were the be all and apparent end all
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They were never the be all end all , they just were , and still are the cheapest way to store energy in battery form . a 12V 75 amp /hr SLA is about 1/3 the cost ($150 ~$200) of a 12V 75 amp/hr Lithium ion( $500-$600) .
 
GeeTee said:
They were never the be all end all , they just were , and still are the cheapest way to store energy in battery form . a 12V 75 amp /hr SLA is about 1/3 the cost ($150 ~$200) of a 12V 75 amp/hr Lithium ion( $500-$600) .
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Very true, but have one in your Cell phone and carry it in your pocket or cordless drill. I still have a good number of corded electric tools, but my cordless battery powered are just so convenient. And powerful.
 
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