12'x4' shelf layout

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C

chimmike

UP and BNSF freelancer
So instead of the dog bone I've just decided to make it 4' deep, greatly increasing the table size and amount of track I can have/use.

So, that being said....A dual main loop around the shelf....seem overkill or too simple?

I'll be following the other design quite a bit, in terms of location of yards and the inner loop grade up to an ore mine with a 3 track spur.

I'll be allowing for staging, so as to allow trains to bring in coal, be switched around at the yard, staged in another yard, and brought back "out" via another proto to another destination, while having a decent little industry setup for some good local manifests.

Are there any good 12'x4' layouts out there already though? Just for curiosity.
 
I mean, operationally, what should I look out for?

I really, really like the SW switchers. I'll eventually pick up a few of those to run around for switching and possibly aiding the local manifests. I'll be using a good powerhouse diesel for the step grade up to the ore mine to pull up empties and bring down loads, which will go to the yard for arranging trains and either back out via proto to staging, or to a local mill of some sort (which I haven't decided yet), and of course the typical local gas/oil depot, maybe a scrap yard too, and a refridgerated storage facility, maybe for some PFE boxcars.

Proto-wise it'll be a location where UP and SF/BNSF meet. 80s-90s era so advanced diesels won't be out of place, but some older road switcher can be used.
 
If you make it 48" wide you need access from two sides or you need to cut access panels. 30 inches is about the max. Strech that and you'll regret it.

I know you want get building, but if you want operations that make sense and support your growth in the hobby, you need to focus your layout and that probably means research--either the on the net or at the library. You need to find a location so you know the scenery and industry. You can find a place where the Sw might be used.

If you go throwing track in a way you think operations might go, you'll end up doing all kinds of creative an wierd things to make what you didn't think of work. Better to take it one step at a time.

Era and location determine the scenery and the industry.

The industry is limited by availible models.

The availible models have known footprints and are addresses by the track in particular ways.

Your track must address the model, so the building determines the trackwork.

The building needs roads for employees and trucks.

The railroad supports all this.

The book Track Planning for Realistic Operations is a good book for learning this, but it might take 2-3 read throughs to get it. Just keep putting out plans and we'll try to keep you on course.
 


Think of it in terms of building scenes. Town Scene. Waterfall Scene, Copper mine scene. Oil refinery scene. For your size layout you get 2-4 scenes.

My layout is roughly 30" by 13 feet--one scene. My 4 x 8, 3 scenes.
 
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Mike, I agree with Chip on this one. If you don't have access to both sides of the layout, don't go to 4' wide. It doesn't seem like a big deal when you're first laying track but, once the scenery is in place, you'll be knocking something over and breaking it every time you rerail a car. The middle section of my dogbone is 30" because it's up against a wall and I know it's as far as a 5'8" guy can reach. Even then, I still have to be careful when working on anything on the rear main because that's where my hills start to rise to meet the backdrop. If you have access on all sides, no problem. Otherwise, I know that extra space looks enticing now but you'll regret it as long as you have the layout.
 
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I definitely, definitely appreciate all the suggestions and patience!

Makes sense about being 4' wide throughout. My dogbones can be 4'x4' with the center being 30", possibly 36".

I'm not permanently attatching the shelf to a wall, so I'll be able to physically move the unit out from the wall if necessary.

As for the layout plan, I think a good bit of the yard will be 'urban switching' where I'll integrate the track into 'roads'.

As said earlier, my 'mine' on the right side will be entering a hilly/mountainous area and the road up to the mine will follow the railroad up the grade to the mine, and on the left side the urban area, yards, and small industry will be the 'valley'. I'll have staging on the left side as well.

I guess it's difficult to envision what I'm describing, I'm sure...but I don't think I've overloaded with too much track to prevent buildings/roads being used, but I'll definitely be looking at the footprint required for buildings...but I think the biggest concern will be the mine and footprint required for that.
 
If you have to have 4' wide tables, you have two options that I can think of:
1. Put the entire layout on wheels so you can pull it out. (Make sure the floor is level smooth and clear or you will topple everything when you move it.)
2. Put 'hatches' in the layout for access. Magazines and books show mountains that can be lifted away in the middle of the layout.
 
Rolling a 12' layout it not a good idea if you value all the things that aren't nailed down--like your rolling stock and locos, etc. Sliding or dragging is worse.
 
I'll be building the framework tomorrow, and it'll be 3' tall. Tall enough to work on it from my office chair, but not too tall so as to require me to bend over all the time when operating and what not.


It won't be on casters. The room it's located in is carpeted. (Brand new house). So basically what I've decided to do is make the tables separate from the framework, so that I can lift the tables off the platform for transport if absolutely necessary sometime down the road.

Won't be any hatches. With the table height, I can reach across to the very end of 4' without too much trouble (I'm 5'11" and fairly flexible for a guy, plus well balanced).

What has surprised me the most is that my wife is going for this.
 
Try this test. Put a plastic cup or glass on the edge of the table close to you. That can represent a building or a tree. Now put another cup about 40" back in. On the other side of the far cup put a piece of track. Now take a rag and clean that track.

Keep moving the far cup closer until you can clean that track without touching either cup. Then you'll know what you can truly reach.
 
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so, I've taken some advise and researched a little bit about the routes of BNSF and UP and where they might join that would match my industry choices, and I've chosen northern Utah.

Both the UP and BNSF meet in northern Utah, which would allow for an ore mine of sorts, as well as travel through of coal trains, and I could add in a chemical or fertilizer plant as I remember a Monsanto plant in southern Idaho/northern Utah that I passed about 8 years ago that had a pretty beefy mainline alongside.

So, figuring I use UP as the main, are there specific signal types the UP uses, and where could I find them? I'll be making the signals work according to sensors in the track and 'blocks', but I'd like to use ones similar to the prototype if at all possible.
 
Congrats on narrowing down your vision. There are lots of different opportunities in northern Utah.

I know you want to climb in the back part of your layout. Just an FYI. It is easier to lower your benchwork in that area to give a deep canyon effect.

I'm not sure of the signal types, but I'm curious how far you could reach doing the cup test.

Several companies make signals, but I have no idea about UP's.
 
If you are going to use ABS or CTC signaling, this is a good site to get your feet wet. The NMRA site also has a link to their signal SIG. There are many sites out there, just do a google for them.
http://www.lundsten.dk/us_signaling/index.html

You really need to take my advice and plan your signaling right along with your track diagram. Signaling is a major branch of model railroading (regardless of layout size) and should be given very careful thought and planning. You don't have to model the exact methods of railroads, but to have a logical working system is important. Also, by including signals in your orginal plan you will be able to see the necessary blocking and plants needed from the beginning and adjust your track accordingly.

Another consideration will be the wiring of track power. With block detection using Digitrax or other brands modules that use current sensing, each block feed must be wired back to a detection module seperately. If you use Hall effect sensors, photocell, reedswitches, this won't be necessary but will require wiring considerations.

Trust me, I speak with experience on how not to do it. I planned my layout without signals and I am paying for it now. I am using Digitrax signal boards and all of my busing is now being replaced by individual block runs. I also had to make many track changes/additions to allow a logical squence for the signals.;) :)

Don't let this change your mind. Signals are really great to have and the more you get into this facet of MR, the more exciting it will be. This is very true if you like to design sequential events based on external inputs.
 
SpaceMouse said:
I'm not sure of the signal types, but I'm curious how far you could reach doing the cup test.
Click to expand...

Well, I made it a dogbone as originally planned, 12' long, with 4' long 4' deep sections at either end.

the only end with a corner I can barely reach will be a hill/mountain where the track will go into a tunnel. I'll try my hardest to make the mountain removable.

I had been thinking of elevating the rear track just a little bit, but if I'm going to be making switches off the back track to other industry in the layout, for simplicity sake I'd better just keep it all level except for the steepish grade going to my ore mine. This will also allow me to cut the foam out and do a water crossing as I'd wanted.
 
RexHea said:
If you are going to use ABS or CTC signaling, this is a good site to get your feet wet. The NMRA site also has a link to their signal SIG. There are many sites out there, just do a google for them.
http://www.lundsten.dk/us_signaling/index.html

You really need to take my advice and plan your signaling right along with your track diagram. Signaling is a major branch of model railroading (regardless of layout size) and should be given very careful thought and planning. You don't have to model the exact methods of railroads, but to have a logical working system is important. Also, by including signals in your orginal plan you will be able to see the necessary blocking and plants needed from the beginning and adjust your track accordingly.

Another consideration will be the wiring of track power. With block detection using Digitrax or other brands modules that use current sensing, each block feed must be wired back to a detection module seperately. If you use Hall effect sensors, photocell, reedswitches, this won't be necessary but will require wiring considerations.

Trust me, I speak with experience on how not to do it. I planned my layout without signals and I am paying for it now. I am using Digitrax signal boards and all of my busing is now being replaced by individual block runs. I also had to make many track changes/additions to allow a logical squence for the signals.;) :)

Don't let this change your mind. Signals are really great to have and the more you get into this facet of MR, the more exciting it will be. This is very true if you like to design sequential events based on external inputs.
Click to expand...


I'll be using the MRC prodigy express as my DCC control.

My main thing is I'd like to use the in-track sensors coupled to signals independently, such that 1 (the first sensor the train comes upon) trips the signal to red, and the end of the block has 2 (second sensor) that keeps the signal red until the train finishes crossing it, turns the signal to green.

Obviously I'm missing something or thinking it's way too simple, but that's what I want it to do, basically. I'd been thinking of wiring some signals accordingly to some switches as well, but I think it'll be easier to wire 'em to a switchboard which lights up accordingly (easier to run trains like that anyways)

I'm going to review that site and see how feasible my plan is. I've still got a LOT of track and switches to buy, so it's probably good that I'm planning this now! haha.
.
Okay, after looking at that site, it looks like I'm wanting ABS.
 
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You can make the signals simple or very complex and that choice is yours. If all you want is to have a red for block one while the train is in block two, then it can be done very easily and by wiring. If you want a 3 signal light system where the train in block 3 has a green, block 2 a yellow, and block 1 a red then it gets interesting with the use of relays or software. I will have Railroad&Co. signal software to control mine, but there is a freebee software that is very good called PanelPro. You can find it and info at http://jmri.sourceforge.net/

One thing to keep in mind: track sensors using photocells or reedswitches will only give a signal when the loco is in line with them, giving you a momentary signal only. If you buy a sensor that has a receiver unit, then it should have an equivilant holding or delay circuit to keep the light on until reset again. Otherwise, you will get into a wiring mess with relays.

Go to the Digitrax website and take a look at what is offered for signal control. Also, if you download some of the manuals for these items they have good explanations and descriptions of signal control.
 
at this point, I'm thinking, the simpler the better.

As you said, red signal for block 1 while train is in block 2, and green for the rest.

So...I went to digitrax's website, and that all seems a bit too complicated for what I need. Is there anything simpler out there?

also the fact that I won't be using a digitrax DCC unit, too.
 
Yes, there are some very simple circuits available to do what you want. Go to the walthers site or catalog and look up signals and find block detection ckts. Then go to that companies website for more info. It's all fairly expensive, but again it is fun and worth it.
FYI: Right now I am controlling homemade dwarf signals for turnout direction by using the contacts on the Tortoise machines and a supply voltage. This is mainline only.
 


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