Would you buy Walthers Proto 1000/2000 locos?

[Y3a]

Being a "Collector" is pretty BORING. Model Railroading is becoming a non-builder hobby, with too many people 'proud' of having minimal skills, but a big wallet.

 

[Charles Smiley]

The biggest "collector" era was when brass was king. Lots of famous people were collectors too - even Mel Torme, the singer, was in brass magazine ads.

When I was in the 8th grade I had a school friend, and his father must have had 300 brass locos on 7-foot high shelves in every room in the house. Not one was painted and likely never saw track voltage. More locos were in all the closets -- still in boxes. No room left for a layout! I haven't seen anything like it since.

Gee, could that be why they lived in a run-down poverty part of Emeryville, CA in a 1900-era house? Just sayin'...

 

[Espeefan]

Being a "Collector" is pretty BORING. Model Railroading is becoming a non-builder hobby, with too many people 'proud' of having minimal skills, but a big wallet.

Not to collectors it isn't

To each his/her own. I have a fairly extensive collection of brass. Most of it has been painted, remotored, decodered, and sees layout service, some models more than others. A very valued customer of mine has an extensive collection of models he does not run, though he has them detailed, painted and kept in running condition, and on display. He researches each model and gives me a package with photos and in all cases I duplicate a specific locomotive at a specific time for him. His money spends as well as the operators I paint for. From a commercial viewpoint it does not matter, and he seems to enjoy his collection and his hobby as much as any MMR I know enjoys theirs.

Just sayin...

 

[Charles Smiley]

Hey I was just envious. All I could afford was an Athearn Hi-F drive, rubber band driven plastic diesel -- if I cut the lawn about 10 times.

 

[riogrande]

I don't collect for the sake of collecting, I want to be able to run my toys and with purpose but fortune hasn't smiled on me and I have't had a place to build a layout, and may not for another year or so cause of the high cost of living here and high child expenses. Y3a, if you have a place to run your trains, count your blessings.

 

[Espeefan]

Hey I was just envious. All I could afford was an Athearn Hi-F drive, rubber band driven plastic diesel -- if I cut the lawn about 10 times.

Tell me about it! I was way past the age where anyone paid me to mow a lawn when I bought my first brass model! I was a third grader when I saw my first one, in a hobby shop. It was $50.00, an astronomical amount of money for a kid in the early sixties.

 

[tootnkumin]

I've just bought 2 more new P2K GP38-2's from an eBay (US) seller that are costing me about $AU115 each (incl P), which I consider still to be a good price as they would have been more than that on special at any LHS. I have already got another one that I bought about 5 years ago at a buy&sell for $50 that had never been out of it's box.

Then there are 2 Alco PA&B powered sets bought from Walthers around the same time.

I love them, they have the best DC starting/slow running capability and smoothness of any of my other brand engines and the level of detail on the GP38-2 is better than Athearns DCC/ready RTR's and only minimally less than their Genesis's.

As far as getting parts for them, I know that they were available for the PA's when I bought them but doubt they would be now.

I don't think the move to more highly detailed models is entirely in response to a demand from "cashed up" collectors as much as a move to by manufacturers to create demand and boost flagging sales. Personally I'm glad they did because I don't have the time or steadiness of hand to make and fit such things as the tiny lifting rings that this P2K GP has.

 

[Iron Horseman]

Being a "Collector" is pretty BORING. Model Railroading is becoming a non-builder hobby, with too many people 'proud' of having minimal skills, but a big wallet.

That is your opinion. Collecting can be very exciting. I don't know anyone who is proud of having minimal skills, but they might be proud of their collection. There is a whole different skill set to researching a certain product and getting a full collection of that item. Doesn't mean they aren't a model railroader. Just a different type.

 

[Iron Horseman]

I personially buy things that are "non-prototypical" (think off colored cars or cars that are painted in one road scheme and labled for another)

Did you get one of the Beaver Valley cars? I saw a bunch on e-bay I didn't get the first one for $35 and decided I should have bid. The next one went for $40 then $45 then $65 etc. The last one they had sold for over $250.

 

[PaulB]

Well, I don't yet have a heritage 0-8-0, so it is entirely possible I will get another walthers loco. Should they do an updated run of SW-1's or a Whitcomb 65 tonner, I might get more.

I don't find the parts issue to be a worry. The same applies for most brands. I have found the walthers parts people easy to deal with, though parts aren't always avaliable. Of the P2K locos I have, one is marked for sale and the other will get NWSL and Mashima replacements when the time comes.

What I like about the walthers P2K locos is the nice detailed shells. It is quite possible to swap to a different chassis if the first breaks down, if one doesn't want to rebuild the chassis.

 

[steveL&N]

THANK YOU for this thread. When lifelike first introduced the proto lines I was hesitant due to no other maker using that design style or body tooling. I also had examined at some shows the inside setup and that was not easily worked with either as far as redesign or kit bashing.

Even so, I ended up with some of these because they looked so dam good. Then I was given a pair of Proto 2000 E6s ( A & B) and was so happy UNTIL IT WAS REALIZED THAT THE TRUCK SIDE FRAMES HAD ISSUES. In fact on one side of each unit, an entire side frame assembly missing.

SO, I was thinking how hard can this be? Trucks are trucks. OH NO not with these. People do not realize why LL went into bankruptcy: it was due to replacement of defective units. All the people using China as a supply source are killing the industry as that nation has not export item quality control. Even KATO now is using China (shame on the Japanese). Since these proto items are so maker unique......

you can not do a truck swap or parts swap. Now I guess all the old school guys with their gazillion Rivarossi EMD, E series tooled engines are laughing hysterically. Those bodies interchanged freely, and the drives were replace able/upgradable.

I replaced more than one Rivarossi steam engine drive with a can one. So I am left with 2 body flawless Seaboard Airline E6s that are side frame naked. NOT SO PROTO AFTER ALL in my little model RR land.

Walthers has basically cornered the market and the prices are unreal. I will tell you though, I have been stocking up on Bachmann Plus dog nose Fs. I had a couple in Seaboard citrus and they ran so quiet & smooth I was blown away. I had $50 invested in an A/B set of those. I have been urging their management to start a line of E units and this was received favorably in the fax I got back.

Meantime, those protos E6s are in the perverbial scrapyard just like the real ones. Maybe I am prototype after all. I will take an Athearn PA (an alltime classic) over the proto one any day just due to faith in Athearns dependable drive systems and better parts sources.

 

[bnsf971]

THANK YOU for this thread. When lifelike first introduced the proto lines I was hesitant due to no other maker using that design style or body tooling. I also had examined at some shows the inside setup and that was not easily worked with either as far as redesign or kit bashing.

Even so, I ended up with some of these because they looked so dam good. Then I was given a pair of Proto 2000 E6s ( A & B) and was so happy UNTIL IT WAS REALIZED THAT THE TRUCK SIDE FRAMES HAD ISSUES. In fact on one side of each unit, an entire side frame assembly missing.

SO, I was thinking how hard can this be? Trucks are trucks. OH NO not with these. People do not realize why LL went into bankruptcy: it was due to replacement of defective units. All the people using China as a supply source are killing the industry as that nation has not export item quality control. Even KATO now is using China (shame on the Japanese). Since these proto items are so maker unique......

you can not do a truck swap or parts swap. Now I guess all the old school guys with their gazillion Rivarossi EMD, E series tooled engines are laughing hysterically. Those bodies interchanged freely, and the drives were replace able/upgradable.

I replaced more than one Rivarossi steam engine drive with a can one. So I am left with 2 body flawless Seaboard Airline E6s that are side frame naked. NOT SO PROTO AFTER ALL in my little model RR land.

Walthers has basically cornered the market and the prices are unreal. I will tell you though, I have been stocking up on Bachmann Plus dog nose Fs. I had a couple in Seaboard citrus and they ran so quiet & smooth I was blown away. I had $50 invested in an A/B set of those. I have been urging their management to start a line of E units and this was received favorably in the fax I got back.

Meantime, those protos E6s are in the perverbial scrapyard just like the real ones. Maybe I am prototype after all. I will take an Athearn PA (an alltime classic) over the proto one any day just due to faith in Athearns dependable drive systems and better parts sources.

I have enough of those sideframes for a locomotive.These are the ones with the separate journals for the wheels, and they are grey in color. If you want them, shoot me an offer for them via PM, since I have no idea what they are worth, if anything.

 

[steveL&N]

I will pull those out tonight and make sure thats the ones you describe. If I remember it sounds right. The color is fine due to SAL kitbashing all sorts of E units in the 50s-60s. Will get back to you tomorrow evening. THANKS.

 

[Iron Horseman]

Walthers has basically cornered the market and the prices are unreal.

I don't know how you can say that. I see direct competition from Atlas, Genesis, Intermountian, BLI, and to a lesser degree Stewart, Athearn RTR, and Spectrum. I think the real issue is that ALL of them are demanding those high prices. Of course who am I to talk. I used to spend $60 for a locomotive and $295 for a sound unit such that the net price ended up being about the same.

And back to the original question.... Despite the stupid 14:1 gearing in passenger locomotives (which is another count against Walthers Proto), Yes, I will continue to buy Proto-2000 and Proto-1000 locos. I just ordered another ABBA set of F7s that are plated to go with the Super Chief set. I will probably order some of the GN passenger Fs in the simplified paint scheme. I just hope they get the color on the red Santa Fe units right this go around. The ones for the El Capitan where horrible.

 

[steveL&N]

I know model railroading was never exactly a poor mans (or kids) thing to really partake in, in any major way. I also see how myself and the rest of us have made up for those lost years and made this into a mans fantasy hobby instead of a kids one.

That is all GOOD AND BAD. I mean some of the stuff we are seeing like LED street signs and such were only daydreamed just 2 decades ago by many of us.

But I do think the making engines into techno pieces added to the maintenance and cost very much. It does to everything. TECH SIMPLY COSTS. I myself have taken the side that less tech is MORE TRAINS, and being the avid model railroad tycoon that I am......I am out for more trains.

Some of the greatest and most legendary layouts we ever knew were all straight dc. I know and love the dcc concept in many ways, but it has driven up prices at an alarming rate and driven the dc makers out of business. Im not sure there exactly is an answer, but I do know that I amassed a railroad monopoly by stockpiling super quality dc stuff at pennies on the dollar as so many guys basically chunked that to the scrap yards (metaphorically).

I have a passenger train fleet that would have made PENNSY & NYC COMPLETELY JEALOUS. I just applied what the actual prototypes did in the 1950s: I recycled, revamped, upgraded, and refurbished older stock into modern, functional, and dependable stock. Thats being proto in almost an absurd sort of way, but I LOVE MY COLLECTION.

 

[RCShadow]

I bought a Proto 2000 GP20 GM Demonstrator a month or two ago from MTS. Not my style...its pretty and all that but lacks the muscle I need for my type of railroading. I may sell it .

 

[railfan]

Can someone please explain the history and relationship between life-like and walthers? From my initial impression of life-like....I categorize it downward slightly with bachmann and model power. But I have some walthers N baggage cars I really like.....and occasionally see some life-like locomotives on ebay that look to be accurate reproductions.

 

[montanan]

I believe that Walthers bought out Life-Like. I am into HO, and years back would have never considered a Life-Like locomotive, but I did end up with a pair of NP Geeps a few years back, and they not only look good, but are excellent running locomotives

 

[RCShadow]

Can someone please explain the history and relationship between life-like and walthers? From my initial impression of life-like....I categorize it downward slightly with bachmann and model power. But I have some walthers N baggage cars I really like.....and occasionally see some life-like locomotives on ebay that look to be accurate reproductions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life-Like

 

[Iron Horseman]

Can someone please explain the history and relationship between life-like and walthers?

Well, going back further..... In the early to mid 1980s Life-Like determined to upgrade themselves from a toy train company to a real model railroader brand. As such they introduced the Proto-2000 line. Bachmann was doing the same thing in this time period with their Spectrum line. I don't remember if the BL2 or the Alco FA came first, but the running quality was definitely better than their toy trains and at least on par with Athearn BB probably better. One of the FA models set the world record for continuous running. The detail was way ahead of the Athearn BB. Slowly they started getting attention from the MR community and also continually improved the drive and details of the models. They had a few stumbling blocks such as the cracked gears (also a problem with Athearn models) and the 3 Amp start up motor in the early PA units. People really liked the units but they were getting too pricey with all the detail that was included, so in the 1990s some time they introduced the Proto-1000 line. In theory the proto-1000 had the good running drive train but not all the body detail, so they could be sold at a lesser price. This was the enticement to get toy train people to upgrade, and to provide MRs on a budget a good running unit at a lower cost.

I never heard that Life-Like was in trouble financially until a couple days ago! At the time it was out of the blue that I got an announcement that Walthers had purchased the entire Life-Like line. Seems like that was in the early 2000s. I figured the owners were getting old and just saw a big pay day and decided to get out (sort of like Athearn). At the time I heard Walthers wanted them because they wanted to get in to N-scale. Like-Like had that and Walthers didn't.

The changes were immediate. I had just gotten into the on-line Life-Like product database. It was way cool. One could look up any model and determine the exact year it was produced, pull all the manuals, get the specs, order the parts. When Walther's took over all that went a way. If you want to know when a Proto-2000 GP30 in KCS with road number y was made you are basically out of luck. What a shame. Likewise trying to get parts has become a nightmare. At first I was told that all the parts from Life Like had gotten all mixed up and confused in the shipping to I figured the owners just saw a big pay day and decided to get out. Milwalkee and they would have it sorted out soon. After 2 years that story got old didn't hold much water. I think they just want people to buy new.

Another of the immediate changes was the price. The first announcements of the Walthers Protos were almost twice the price of the former Life-like equivalence. This didn't go well and about 9 months later Walthers cut the price across the board. They've been creeping them back up through the years.

Walthers kept the good Proto-2000 name and just started calling it Proto-2000 by Walthers. They dropped the Proto-Heritage name for the steamers and just called them Proto-2000 too. A couple years later they standardized all the diesel gear ratios on the locos to 14:1 . I understand the stated purpose of doing this was so DC people can MU them better, but I think they just wanted to save costs by only manufacturing 1 axle gear. To me it makes no sense to cripple a model for the sake of an old technology. In Life-Like days the road specific detail had to be added by the modeler. Now Walthers is doing that at the factory. That can be good or bad depending on how you look at it. Having a fire cracker whip radio antenna on the GN Empire Builder F units from the factory resulted in 2 of them getting broken off before I could get them out of the box. There are some things that don't wrap well in plastic.