When Will DCC become the standard?

[LoudMusic]

DCC is not new, as its pushing 20 years now since its first release. Lenz first demonstrated their new product in the late '80's at the NMRA conventions. With in a couple of years, Lenz gave their digital communication standards to the NMRA, which became the Standards for Command Control. I believe the first commercial units not made by Lenz, started coming out in 1991 or 92.

I'd say 20 years is pretty new by "model railroading" time ;D And besides, they didn't become reliable and affordable until the last 5 years, correct?

Each technology, DC & DCC has its place, and I've never denied it. But you are trying to make it more complicated than it needs to be. While there are more small layouts out there than big ones, still wiring a small layout for multiple train ops is a lot easier with DCC, and costs just about the same. It also can involve just the 2 wires to the track as with your basic DC. (Bachmann's E-Z Command is one of if not the most basic of DCC systems, can be had for $50, or less, esp if you go with a used system.) Now while "2 wires to the tracks", has always been the most basic of wiring, it has also always been a good idea to have supplemental feeders to the tracks, whether its wired for DC or DCC, to prevent voltage drop due to bad rail joiner connections and such.

But I'm also saying that as DCC becomes less expensive so does DC. And using the low entry prices based on used equipment isn't fair - by those standards there are boxes of DC power supplies that people are giving away.

Check the older magazines from even as far back as the 40's and 50's. On their small layout build articles, most no bigger than 4x8's, MR, RMC, Model Trains, (and probably a few others time has forgot over the years,) always stressed adding more than one set of feeders to the tracks for electrical reliability. I don't think that attitude has changed since then.

Now, I'm not advocating that a modeler with a simple point to point or loop layout, who only runs one loco at a time and no more, needs DCC, I never said that. Its just as soon as the modeler decides he wants to run more than that one loco, or even to run 2 at the same time, the wiring starts down a more complicated route. Even if its just adding a kill switch to a section of track, its still more complicated than the original 2 wires to the track in DC. With DCC it doesn't have to be. That's all I'm saying.

PS. I have to agree with the others, this IS a very interesting discussion!

I'm saying there are more people wanting to run trains that aren't wanting to get complicated to any degree. Look at Kato and Bachmann's track systems that include the roadbed. The bulk of people buying that probably don't even have interest in a semi-permanent layout - just something they can throw together on the floor or table and run trains for a few hours or a weekend, then box it up for another day. I just think there are a lot more people in that category than ones looking to build permanent layouts with multiple operators.

 

[LoudMusic]

I believe that in the last poll on this subject by MR, which was a couple of years ago, IIRC, DC was still in the majority. The reason being was that many of the DC layout's owners saw no reason to change, or viewed the change as too expensive, and too troublesome.

I don't believe that DCC is anywhere near being "the standard" yet. But I can see a day where it will be a majority. I believe that most people coming into the hobby sees what DCC can do, and wants it. But I also believe that day when it becomes a majority is still a long time off. Even longer to become a defacto standard.

This is where I go back to the original question and my original answer.

When will DCC become 100% "The standard"

Never. There are simply people who do not want it.

Now if you were to ask the question, ""When will DCC be more common than DC?", yeah that's probably not too far off. Five to ten years, maybe? DCC is better. People know it. It's getting more affordable all the time.

There's probably huge growth in new layouts, and not so much in converting old layouts.

 

[railflyermodel]

Our new dWiDCC is something you should take a look at.

It puts a Li-PO in the hood, the motors in the trucks where they need to be. You can control it though DCC, DC, or talk directly to it without going through a command station. You can also set up automation where the nodes talk to themselves.

This set up eliminates the costs associated with maintaining a track based signal and greatly expands the GUI and coolness.

So we can offer you an entire set-up in minutes just in the elimination of the traction wiring. Gives you more time to model...

Christopher Howard, CEO
Railflyer Model Prototypes Inc.
rti - Micron / rti - Model / rti - Wireless
www.railflyermodel.com

 

[railfan]

Our new dWiDCC is something you should take a look at.

It puts a Li-PO in the hood, the motors in the trucks where they need to be. You can control it though DCC, DC, or talk directly to it without going through a command station. You can also set up automation where the nodes talk to themselves.

This set up eliminates the costs associated with maintaining a track based signal and greatly expands the GUI and coolness.

So we can offer you an entire set-up in minutes just in the elimination of the traction wiring. Gives you more time to model...

Christopher Howard, CEO
Railflyer Model Prototypes Inc.
rti - Micron / rti - Model / rti - Wireless
www.railflyermodel.com

Those look like some amazing
innovations. I'll be watching to see how your company and products progress. Looks like you have a future as long as freedom has a future.....freedoms future having been in doubt the last four years.


Mike

 

[Midnught Special]

Ok I have a few locos that Im sure won't be able to be DCC ever due to there construction (but im gonna at least try) and a few that are, and honestly its a tossup for me, I like my older engines and my newer DCC/sound engines, I haven't started building my bench yet so I am gonna bite the bullit there and do DCC out of the gate, I also have decided to over time slowly chip all my trains and all that

I do have a little Bachmann GP30 which I will admit isn't the "best" out there its noisey as ill get out but I do love that it pulls as well as my Athearn GP38-2 and that I can lash them both on DC track and they run together very well!



i plan to keep my DC controller for the trains I can't run DCC but most I see now days are DCC ready heck I had a chance to buy a DCC ready loco for $25 a while back. so I do see it already as a "de facto" standard just like the knuckle couplers

 

[montanan]

I don't either, but here are my experiences.

I've had many formal op sessions, if that's what you mean, in both DC and DCC. While I have enjoyed both "types" immensely, I have enjoyed the DCC sessions more, as I could watch the trains a heck of a lot more than watching control panels, to know which and when to throw electrical switches to avoid shorts and the seemingly inevitable, "Who's got my train????".

As I have said, I agree that DC will never be completely replaced on the market. But I do believe that pure DC equipment, will eventually become harder and harder to obtain.

There are no clubs or layouts anywhere close to me. I of course operate DC, but I have visited many clubs and large home layouts in trips and have operated on DCC. I do bring my one and only DCC locomotive with me and did enjoy the operating sessions. At on large club I visited, we had 15 people kept very busy. For such large layouts, and with so many trains operating at once, I do see where DCC is quite and advantage. It was great. All throttles were wireless, and with the entire layout having operating signals, it was a real hoot !
For many of us with home layouts, we'll never have an operating session any where like this, and DCC, for myself, and probably many others is not a necessity. I have operated on large layouts "back in the day" flipping switches for blocks, and it really didn't bother me. On some DCC layouts I have operated on I found that shorts were a lot more common than on some DC layouts. Probably wasn't wired correctly, or could have been the equipment.

 

[Espeefan]

Couple things:

First, I see more DCC layouts at train shows than DC. I see more DCC layouts than DC in magazines like MR where layouts are showcased. The hobby shops in my area have loads of DCC stuff, far more than their selection of power packs. The face of the hobby is pretty much DCC. Still lots of DC around though. Newbs at their first train show are more likely to be exposed to DCC than DC.

Small layout cost comparison:

(prices from M.B. Klien's retail store, and this is all pretty basic stuff, nothing real fancy)

Let's call the wiring a wash on a 4 x 8 or shelf layout.

Bachman EZ Command: $89.99
Bachman Dynamis: $119.99
NCE Powercab: $149.99
Digitrax Zephyr: $169.99

MRC Power command DC Power Pack: $119.99
MRC Tech 4 DC Power Pack: $54.99

So $30.00-$50.00 for basic quality stuff or lower end stuff and that covers your power supply or command station.

Have only 1 or 2 locos? Basic decoders can be had for $16.00. That's $32.00 for 2. Add in costs for Atlas Selector, or good quality toggle switches and such. Pick a number. Let's call it $15.00 for the sake of argument. So you're in the + $60-65.00 range for choosing DCC over DC at the get go, or less than a quality passenger car or a couple of freight cars.

Not wanting it is a valid reason. Cost would not seem to be.

Again, I'm not advocating one or the other, but the cost difference is just not big money. If you're like me and want lighting effects, you can still find modules for these on the market, for Gyralights and such, but they are more expensive than decoders which control everything.

If you have sound locos and want to use something like a Tech 6, bingo! You're pretty much apples to apples.

Just a few thoughts

 

[Cjcrescent]

I'd say 20 years is pretty new by "model railroading" time ;D And besides, they didn't become reliable and affordable until the last 5 years, correct?

Actually, I think not. I don't consider anything 20 yrs old technology wise, as new. The reliability of the technology was very good back when I first got into it in the 1990's. All the problems I have ever had with the technology as always been related to problems I or others caused, (smoked a couple of decoders when loco derailed on bad trackwork, or during an installation).

But I'm also saying that as DCC becomes less expensive so does DC. And using the low entry prices based on used equipment isn't fair - by those standards there are boxes of DC power supplies that people are giving away.

I haven't seen that at all, the price drops. The price on electrical switches have pretty much stayed the same, or the more complex the switch, the price has even gone up. Yes, I've seen boxes of used power packs for sale at all kinds of train shows, but many don't sale at all.

I'm saying there are more people wanting to run trains that aren't wanting to get complicated to any degree. Look at Kato and Bachmann's track systems that include the roadbed. The bulk of people buying that probably don't even have interest in a semi-permanent layout - just something they can throw together on the floor or table and run trains for a few hours or a weekend, then box it up for another day. I just think there are a lot more people in that category than ones looking to build permanent layouts with multiple operators.

I don't disagree on this at all. But if those folks want to go to something more permanent more times than not, whether they research the subject on-line, or talk with a LHS, they get exposed to DCC, and many of these newbies go that route. I believe its the "bells and whistles" literally, that they can have with DCC.

Alan, I agree with what you said. Very good examples. The last layout I saw at a show without DCC of some type, other than the other modular club in town here, (they use the Aristocraft wireless system), comparable in price to a good DCC system, was a 5' x 40' monster, in Nn3.

He used Z scale locos mechanisms and Z scale trucks to model the Colorado narrow gauge in N scale. Every loco and car he had had been scratch built, except for the mechanisms. He said, when I asked, there was simply no way to put a decoder in anything. All the spare room was taken up by weight. It was absolutely amazing! IIRC, it was at a train show in St. Louis about 7 years ago.

 

[NYW&B]

Although this may come rather late in this discussion, I would like to pose the question of just who we are talking about when asking, "when will DCC become the standard?"

Are we speaking about the situation in the eyes of classic craftsman modelers, those folks that dominated the hobby in the past and except for a small minority are not at all well represented on the "popular" internet forums? They are rarely RTR enthusiasts, shunning that approach as it is in conflict with their building interests, and there is little evidence of their shift from DC operated layouts to DCC.

Or perhaps are we speaking of just the hobby segment made up of folks that have largely joined in over the course of just the past dozen years, or so? In many respects their viewpoints on the hobby have been fostered by what they read in Model Railroader magazine under the editorship of two tinplate enthusiasts. They repesent purchasers almost exclusively of high tech RTR equipment and not builders of much of anything themselves, rather like the traditional Lionel crowd seen in today's Toy Trains magazine (from which the last two editors of MR were in fact derived). These are also the folks one finds dominating the majority of on-line forums.

In all honesty, these are two separate hobbies with decidedly differing objectives and approaches. I can see how DCC would have a major appeal to the newcomers, but I question whether the still large but under represented traditional group (other than perhaps those with the rare basement-filling empires) see things the same way, or are willing/already changed to DCC.

So, since we are not talking about any truly homogeneous particpant base, I think it begs the question of just whom we are talking about when we responding to the OP's question...and which is more critical to that point now and in the future?

NYW&B

 

[montanan]

Although this may come rather late in this discussion, I would like to pose the question of just who we are talking about when asking, "when will DCC become the standard?"

Are we speaking about the situation in the eyes of classic craftsman modelers, those folks that dominated the hobby in the past and except for a small minority are not at all well represented on the "popular" internet forums? They are rarely RTR enthusiasts, shunning that approach as it is in conflict with their building interests, and there is little evidence of their shift from DC operated layouts to DCC.

Or perhaps are we speaking of just the hobby segment made up of folks that have largely joined in over the course of just the past dozen years, or so? In many respects their viewpoints on the hobby have been fostered by what they read in Model Railroader magazine under the editorship of two tinplate enthusiasts. They repesent purchasers almost exclusively of high tech RTR equipment and not builders of much of anything themselves, rather like the traditional Lionel crowd seen in today's Toy Trains magazine (from which the last two editors of MR were in fact derived). These are also the folks one finds dominating the majority of on-line forums.

In all honesty, these are two separate hobbies with decidedly differing objectives and approaches. I can see how DCC would have a major appeal to the newcomers, but I question whether the still large but under represented traditional group (other than perhaps those with the rare basement-filling empires) see things the same way, or are willing/already changed to DCC.

So, since we are not talking about any truly homogeneous particpant base, I think it begs the question of just whom we are talking about when we responding to the OP's question...and which is more critical to that point now and in the future?

NYW&B

I think you have brought up an excellent point. I guess I would be in what would the class of the old timers. I have been interested in model railroading all of my life having family that worked for the railroad and having had to opportunity to ride in the cabs of steam, diesel and electric locomotives. I was hooked at an early age. With nowhere to have a layout on board ship in the Navy, I finally had my first serious layout in N scale in the early 70's. Living in an apartment at the time, it was all I had room for. I finally moved back to Montana in 1977 and with a basement available, it was full steam ahead. I had incorporated my smmall N scale layout into a railroad that had about 16 scale miles of mainline. DCC wasn't even a dream back then.
Unfortunately at the time, N scale equipment was no where a good as it is today. The quality and running abilities back then was what I would call marginal, and the availability of road names that I was interested in were not available. I was helping a friend build a large HO scale layout in the early 80's, and enjoyed the better running locomotives, availability of equipment, and it sure was a lot easier to put a custom paint job on an HO scale locomotive. My N scale went to swap meet and I jumped into a new layout, in HO scale. I got started, havind benchwork up and and trains operating on all handlaid track. I'm glad that I didn't get too far along as the land baron (my wife) let me rip down a wall and the railroad expanded. Corrently I have well over 40 locomotives, and almost all have been custom painted. Even with more road names available in HO scale, I still couldn't find exactly what I wanted, so I built it myself.
Needless to say, absolutely nothing was DCC ready, an in many of these locomotives room under the shell is at a premium. No DCC available yet. I had chosen my time period,and worked on my equipment as the layout grew. Most of what I needed for my railroad equipment wise I had completed well over ten years ago. Manufacturers were really ramping up around this time and I did find a few locomotives that finally became available that would work for my time period, and did purchase a few, but still, none were DCC ready. I amfar enough along with my layout that I don't want to take the time, or spend the money to step up to DCC because I am a lone operator most of the time, and I don't feel that it is necessary.
In my travels I have met many great model railroaders and visited many layouts, both club and home layouts. Some are quite large, andhave many peopleoperating them. Here Ifind that DCC is an advantage. I will also agree that many who are really interested in DCC are the younger modelers. There are "old timers" also getting into DCC, but I found many die hards like myself sticking with DC. For myself, I don't care to spend the money and time to go to DCC because I don't need it.

 

[Charles Smiley]

I put off DCC until everything was basically done. Wiring for track, turnout controls and blocking for multiple throttles came first. The conversion to DCC was easy.

Now I can run two trains in any combination of direction and have timed meets - by myself! I tried that with old DC and it was more work than fun.

To me, that, and far smoother running, are the biggest attractions.

Don't forget the ancient debate over outside third-rail verses 2-rail DC in HO - long ago. The newer format always dominates - eventually.

 

[Cjcrescent]

Although this may come rather late in this discussion, I would like to pose the question of just who we are talking about when asking, "when will DCC become the standard?"

Are we speaking about the situation in the eyes of classic craftsman modelers, those folks that dominated the hobby in the past and except for a small minority are not at all well represented on the "popular" internet forums? They are rarely RTR enthusiasts, shunning that approach as it is in conflict with their building interests, and there is little evidence of their shift from DC operated layouts to DCC.

Or perhaps are we speaking of just the hobby segment made up of folks that have largely joined in over the course of just the past dozen years, or so? In many respects their viewpoints on the hobby have been fostered by what they read in Model Railroader magazine under the editorship of two tinplate enthusiasts. They repesent purchasers almost exclusively of high tech RTR equipment and not builders of much of anything themselves, rather like the traditional Lionel crowd seen in today's Toy Trains magazine (from which the last two editors of MR were in fact derived). These are also the folks one finds dominating the majority of on-line forums.

In all honesty, these are two separate hobbies with decidedly differing objectives and approaches. I can see how DCC would have a major appeal to the newcomers, but I question whether the still large but under represented traditional group (other than perhaps those with the rare basement-filling empires) see things the same way, or are willing/already changed to DCC.

So, since we are not talking about any truly homogeneous particpant base, I think it begs the question of just whom we are talking about when we responding to the OP's question...and which is more critical to that point now and in the future?

NYW&B

Very good points! Very good. I do consider myself in the craftsman section. You could call me an old fogey as well, as I've been in the hobby for over 50 years.

Not counting engines, majority is brass, I guess I own less than 10 RTR cars and no RTR structures. This is out of 440 cars layout ready and over 50 structures. I have built everything from kits to kit-bashing to some scratchbuilding, and have been an operation enthusiast since the 1970's. With operations, the less you have to deal with things like block selection the better.

Since my layout isn't ready for full operations yet, I operate mostly on friends layouts, and they are all DCC. Everyone of them are flawless in their operation equipment wise. Although I have operated on many layouts that are not DCC, it just isn't as much fun as being concerned with only drop off and pickups. (One layout was O scale and it was fun running trains that the cars in trains weighed over 100 lbs.) The DC layouts have some problems you just don't see in DCC, like too many too short blocks, or running into other blocks under some other throttle's control, or run into a reverse block that was left with the direction switch opposite of the direction you're running, and there isn't a local switch to correct. So you have to walk back to the main panel to throw it, or get someone near to do it.

 

[railfan]

One thing I like about DCC.....is my model RR friends tend to give me their old but nice MRC DC powerpacks for free when they switch to DCC. I have three of them.



Mike

 

[Espeefan]

Although this may come rather late in this discussion, I would like to pose the question of just who we are talking about when asking, "when will DCC become the standard?"

Are we speaking about the situation in the eyes of classic craftsman modelers, those folks that dominated the hobby in the past and except for a small minority are not at all well represented on the "popular" internet forums? They are rarely RTR enthusiasts, shunning that approach as it is in conflict with their building interests, and there is little evidence of their shift from DC operated layouts to DCC.

Or perhaps are we speaking of just the hobby segment made up of folks that have largely joined in over the course of just the past dozen years, or so? In many respects their viewpoints on the hobby have been fostered by what they read in Model Railroader magazine under the editorship of two tinplate enthusiasts. They repesent purchasers almost exclusively of high tech RTR equipment and not builders of much of anything themselves, rather like the traditional Lionel crowd seen in today's Toy Trains magazine (from which the last two editors of MR were in fact derived). These are also the folks one finds dominating the majority of on-line forums.

In all honesty, these are two separate hobbies with decidedly differing objectives and approaches. I can see how DCC would have a major appeal to the newcomers, but I question whether the still large but under represented traditional group (other than perhaps those with the rare basement-filling empires) see things the same way, or are willing/already changed to DCC.

So, since we are not talking about any truly homogeneous particpant base, I think it begs the question of just whom we are talking about when we responding to the OP's question...and which is more critical to that point now and in the future?

NYW&B

I don't beleive you can break this down into something like "The real model railroaders all use DC" or "DCC is a young mans game", or "a rich man's game". I can think of at least a half a dozen modelers, long time hobbyists who have earned their MMR through the NMRA's achievement program. Their skills are beyond question. They all moved to DCC on established layouts. One of them in particular who's layout I operated on in the early 1990's switched over from Dynatrol to NCE. Some of these guys are in their late sixties, a few in their mid to late seventies. I had another good friend who had a completed layout that worked fine on DC and a huge collection of locomotives, brass and others. He elected not to change over, and I agreed with his reasons.

I really don't buy into this theme that creeps into some discussions that "The real model railroaders build kits or scratchbuild, and the rest are just a bunch of guys with deep pockets and no real skills." That may not have been where you were going, but with e-mail you can start one place and get somewhere different than you intended without really trying! That's sort of how it read. It's unnecessarily divisive, and to boot, untrue. We're a small enough group already. Why subdivide us further? If I choose to buy an expensive model that can be plunked down after some weathering and run as is, in order to give me time to do something else, on a layout or a structure, or anything else, that does not make me any less of a model railroader than the guy who scratch builds everything. I envy him his time. I don't have it, so I make do. (lets all remember that John Allen was quite well off financially for that time, and his railroad basically was his job)

I also don't notice anything in the way of an overt tinplate influence at MR. There are less articles from outside contributors now than there used to be, but I still see about the same type of content. RMC is also a good magazine, I prefer it over MR, because there is more modeling in it, but I also see more DCC in it than DC when it comes to layouts and projects.

I have heard from more than one source that our average demographic is somewhere in the 50-60 age group, as that's where you have the disposable income and a home to build a layout in. I think that there is a fair amount of those on this forum. As for me. I'm 57. I've been in the hobby just a bit over 20 years, started with DC, and converted to DCC as a result of experience operating on layouts equipped with both systems. For me, the early Digitrax advertisement of "Run your trains, not your track" made sense. It was just plain easier to operate on DCC layouts, and I liked the walkaround throttle. I can also see why those with completed or nearly completed layouts would not want to be bothered. If it aint broke don't fix it! Cost is really not an issue, even for small layouts. It's an entirely personal choice, but I think DCC is gaining a bigger and bigger share of the demographic and I don't see that stopping. New entries into the hobby are definitely going to be exposed to DCC almost from the beginning, and if you choose it from the beginning you don't have to debate whether or not to change over.

 

[railfan]

I got a computer and high speed internet before most of my friends. They were protesting how the computer/internet constantly moves forward, "it's all just a scam to sell more stuff and charge ever increasing service fees". But it's a mirror of life really. Nothing in time stays the same. Kids don't stay babies forever, they need bigger clothes and different school books every year.

A couple of my friends still don't have computers or cell phones which is fine. I still have DC track power. Freedom to choose is the american way.....but so is innovation and progress.....and marketing.....and a huge selection of ever new technology.

 

[Cjcrescent]

...

I really don't buy into this theme that creeps into some discussions that "The real model railroaders build kits or scratchbuild, and the rest are just a bunch of guys with deep pockets and no real skills." That may not have been where you were going, but with e-mail you can start one place and get somewhere different than you intended without really trying! That's sort of how it read....

I didn't see that at all, Alan. I believe that he was just stating what is a fact that more and more modelers are getting into the RTR aspect and fewer are into the "must build everything", like I am. Plus there are many of the "craftsman types" that do not come on to the general forums, or even the more specific forums, dedicated to craftsmanship. I'm generally on here a couple times a week, and will go weeks between posts.

I've also seen the changes at our LHS, where although if you want a kit he'll order it, but more and more of the "everyday" stock has gone over to the RTR. This is for one reason, he ain't selling many kits, of any type.

Many of the new railroaders here are not people of our age, but Fathers and Mothers buying things for the family. I've got two new friends over the past six months whose kids, who are the primary driving force in the families for the hobby, are 10 & 11 years old. I'm advising the families on what and what not to buy, at their request, of course. One of the kids is even in to the SRR, in Steam no less! Before I even met them he already owned 2 steamers and were waiting on another to arrive.

However, I do agree that just because "everyone else" is doing it is no reason to change what you're doing, esp if it satisfies you. Be it DC wiring and control, DCC, RTR, or just kits. There's room for all here.

 

[kbkchooch]

Wow, and to think I've missed out on this thread til now! I've been reading the whole thread, yes all 14 pages, sometimes with complete confusion, sometimes with amazement, and a little disgust. Confused by contradictions, amazed at the clarity of thought, and disgusted by a little pig headedness.
For what it's worth, I've been doing this almost as long as CJ (though I am not quite as old). I've wired a club layout with 20 12 position rotary switches and I've also wired several simple 4x8 layouts with multiple blocks and DC. I've been though the early days of CTC control with a Mann-Made Command Control System and in 1992 I threw caution to the wind and went DCC, back when a base NCE system was 400 bucks and cheap decoders were 35 bucks. Why, I HATE WIRING! There, I said it!!
Sorry if I offended some, but thats it in a nutshell. For my wants and needs, DCC does all I need and more! Buss wiring is Uber easy compared to block wiring.
How did I rationalize it financially? Simple,
Was I willing to give up purchasing 4 Atlas engines in order to get the most out of the ones I had? Yes, it took me a few years to convert most of the fleet, but I did it, and now slowly, they are getting sound.
But that is what worked and why it worked for me.

Everyone's situation is different.

When will DCC become the standard? In a lot of ways, it already is. Look at all the engines that are at least DCC ready. It doesn't mean they have to have a decoder, but its nice to know its ready if you are. And now DCC engines with sound are getting cheap. I recently got a bachman S2 with DCC and Sound, cost $49.95. I dont care who you are, thats cheap!
For the small, say 4x8 layout, or casual, around the Christmas Tree camp, it may never be standard, but then again, they don't require it.

A similar discussion might have taken place somewhere in Detroit 50 - 60 years ago, guys wondering, "when will the automatic transmission become standard?" They still havnt settled that one!!

Your mileage may vary

 

[Espeefan]

I didn't see that at all, Alan. I believe that he was just stating what is a fact that more and more modelers are getting into the RTR aspect and fewer are into the "must build everything", like I am. Plus there are many of the "craftsman types" that do not come on to the general forums, or even the more specific forums, dedicated to craftsmanship. I'm generally on here a couple times a week, and will go weeks between posts.

SNIP

However, I do agree that just because "everyone else" is doing it is no reason to change what you're doing, esp if it satisfies you. Be it DC wiring and control, DCC, RTR, or just kits. There's room for all here.

OK fair enough, that's why I asked. Still there are plenty of ctraftsman types that have gone DCC, so being among the "old guard" does not necessarily mean you refuse to give up your block wiring Kits are going away not so much because folks don't want to build them anymore, but (just my own opinion here) many of us are working longer hours and have less and less hobby time. I remember when Roy Stewart kept telling me that I should build a resistance soldering outfit instead of buying one. My response was "Roy I'm struggling to get a layout built here, and it will never happen if I have to build the tools! I'm building less and less rolling stock kits, and this is giving me time to build the structures I want. I think it all balances out in the end!

 

[diburning]

I started out doing DCC so it's not really a pain for me to outfit my fleet. It's rather simple for me, buy locomotive, buy decoder, install, done! Hard wiring is not difficult at all.

Locomotives are DCC ready, why? It makes installing a decoder easier, without the costs to the manufacturer to actually put a decoder in. Atlas has tried and failed. Their excuse was that people wanted to use their favorite brands; which is kind of true. Although I will use any brand of decoders, some people swear by Digitrax, NCE, or TCS. I tend to use Digitrax decoders because they are less expensive and do what I need them to do.

It also satisfies the people who don't use DCC. Even if the locos have factory installed DCC, DCC decoders are "backwards compatible" with DC. DCC locomotives will also operate on DC.

By making locos DCC ready with an 8-pin or 9-pin plug (some of Athearn's boards can have both), the manufacturer can get away with catering to both crowds while saving money.

 

[NYW&B]

I don't beleive you can break this down into something like "The real model railroaders all use DC" or "DCC is a young mans game", or "a rich man's game". I can think of at least a half a dozen modelers, long time hobbyists who have earned their MMR through the NMRA's achievement program. Their skills are beyond question. They all moved to DCC on established layouts. One of them in particular who's layout I operated on in the early 1990's switched over from Dynatrol to NCE. Some of these guys are in their late sixties, a few in their mid to late seventies. I had another good friend who had a completed layout that worked fine on DC and a huge collection of locomotives, brass and others. He elected not to change over, and I agreed with his reasons.

I really don't buy into this theme that creeps into some discussions that "The real model railroaders build kits or scratchbuild, and the rest are just a bunch of guys with deep pockets and no real skills." That may not have been where you were going, but with e-mail you can start one place and get somewhere different than you intended without really trying! That's sort of how it read. It's unnecessarily divisive, and to boot, untrue. We're a small enough group already. Why subdivide us further? If I choose to buy an expensive model that can be plunked down after some weathering and run as is, in order to give me time to do something else, on a layout or a structure, or anything else, that does not make me any less of a model railroader than the guy who scratch builds everything. I envy him his time. I don't have it, so I make do. (lets all remember that John Allen was quite well off financially for that time, and his railroad basically was his job)

I also don't notice anything in the way of an overt tinplate influence at MR. There are less articles from outside contributors now than there used to be, but I still see about the same type of content. RMC is also a good magazine, I prefer it over MR, because there is more modeling in it, but I also see more DCC in it than DC when it comes to layouts and projects.

Alan - My post of yesterday was not about who are the "true" model railroaders, but rather was to point out that traditional hobbyists - those dominating the hobby from its inception through the end of the 1980's - have a totally different outlook on what model railroading is all about. These folks were truly creative craftsmen. Their ilk was also reflected in the editorial staff of magazines like MR and RMC, as well as the magazines' content.

Beginning in the mid to late 1990's the hobby saw a noticeable influx of new blood. The bulk of these were seemingly much more interested in simply running their trains than in the traditional model building aspect, just as had been the Lionel enthusiasts of earlier years. Likewise, the younger element within this new group was deeply interested in electronic/computers and applying variations of these to their newfound hobby. They have also come to dominate the internet forums.

During this period, although MRC's content remained true to the traditional side of the hobby, MR acquired a totally new editorial staff, headed it up with two consecutive Lionel enthusiasts and changed the direction of its content. The content of the magazine dramatically shifted from page after page of modeling and historical articles to being dominated simply by pretty layout pictures and urges to buy-this, buy-that. Compare any 1950-1985 MR with a 2000-2010 issue and the contrast will be clearly illustrated to the reader. All these points are facts easily checked and demonstrated.

This brings me to the basic premise of my earlier post which is not about who is a true model railroader, but instead that the hobby began drawing a decidedly different group of people into it beginning in the late 1990's who approach to it, together with their new sort of buying habits, resulted in a dramatic change in direction and dividing the hobby into two distinct subgroups. For the newcomers, more open to the electronics end and doing more running with less personal ingenuity and foregoing most traditional model building projects, DCC fit right into the scheme.

Now I certainly don't contend that ALL traditional model railroaders shun DCC, only that by percentage they are far fewer and much slower buying into the supposed advantages of DCC (which are much more in the eye of the beholder and his particular approach to the hobby than anything else). I too know some traditional hobbyists who have been into the electronics end of the hobby for years and embraced DCC. But my personal observation has been that they are distinctly in the minority. Far and away the bulk of old-timers I know are still into DC.

A piece in MR a year or so ago claimed that DCC usage had finally reached 50% ACCORDING TO THEIR OWN POLL. However, with the dramatic alteration in content that the magazine had seen in the past decade it had lost a very large portion of its traditional hobbyist readership. If one doubts this just read the endless threads on all the forums during the 2000's about longtime hobbyists dropping their subscriptions to MR. So...it follows that MR's polling would not have been of any true cross section of hobbyists, but likely heavily influenced by the views and practices of the newcomers. I must then ask, just where does that honestly leave DCC's usage today among all hobbyists and what does it say about it in the future?

NYW&B