Undecided

[JoeJ]

I've managed to negotiate space for a first layout, and now I can't make up my mind what to do with it. I know that I want to model a real railroad (not freelanced), and I want an urban/industrial setting in the far west - California, Nevada, or possibly Arizona.

What I can't decide is which era to model; there are four that I really like:

1) Old west, ca. 1860-90. ("Urban" in this era would mean a mining boom town: Candelaria, Eureka, or Virginia City in Nevada, or Nevada City in California.)

2) Turn of the century, ca. 1900-10.

3) World War II, 1943-44.

4) Almost modern, ca. 2000. (Back when a lot of equipment was still painted for Santa Fe and Southern Pacific.)

The givens are:

- Layout will be on a 2' wide shelf along two walls of a bedroom that will also be doubling as... a bedroom (so very little chance of any further land grabs at this time). I've got 13' 8" available along one wall and 5' 8" along the other.

- At my core, I am a model builder, so no RTR unless I really REALLY need something that is not available as a kit and is beyond my ability to scratchbuild. (I'm new to model railroading, but I've been building military models since I was small.) I do want a layout that I can operate, but a good 75% of the fun will still be in building the models.

- HO scale or larger. (Any smaller and I start running into problems with poor eyesight and fat fingers.)


Reading books and looking at pictures of trains only increases the list of things I'd like to model, so that's no help. <sigh>

OTOH, I have got some structure kits. Maybe building a diorama or two will help me decide.

Joe

 

[hamltnblue]

Option 3 and 4 will give you the most availability of pretty much everything. The equipment in 1 and 2 is harder to come by, especially the 1800's stuff. You're pretty much Bachmann bound there.

 

[Beachbum]

Given HO and your real estate, sounds like a shelf switcher is in order. If you Google map LA, you'll see plenty of track you could model but you'd have to dig some to see what was ATSF vs. SP.

Maybe a layout based on a piece of the LAJ? Or maybe an ATSF layout with an SP interchange or vice versa? Maybe you could do parallel ATSF and SP lines but that might overwhelm your space.

Just a couple ideas off the top of my coffee craving head this AM...

 

[cajon]

Given HO and your real estate, sounds like a shelf switcher is in order. If you Google map LA, you'll see plenty of track you could model but you'd have to dig some to see what was ATSF vs. SP.
Maybe a layout based on a piece of the LAJ? Or maybe an ATSF layout with an SP interchange or vice verse? Maybe you could do parallel ATSF and SP lines but that might overwhelm your space.
Just a couple ideas off the top of my coffee craving head this AM...

My layout is the LAJ in the '60s right now & will be running their 7 ALCOs (5 S-2 & 2 S-4). The Santa Fe, PE, SP & UP all interchanged w/ the J so plenty of excuses to have their locos & cabooses on the layout! In '72 Santa Fe became the sole owner & by '74 CA AQMD air regs. outlawed the ALCOs. So they started using CF7s & by '86 they had 4 painted LAJ but still in Santa Fe B/Y Warbonnet. So there's alot of variety possible in modeling the J. Here's page 3 of my thread on my layout w/ the latest plan:
http://www.modelrailroadforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16567&page=3

 

[JoeJ]

I've got a back issue of Warbonnet that describes the LAJ, and it's definitely on the short list if I go with era 3 or 4. (It was created sometime in the 1920s IIRC.)

Eras 2 and 3 would allow me to include an electric streetcar line, even if I only have the space for a non-operating scenic element. OTOH, era 1 would give me an excuse to try some of the Carter Bros. and Kimball car kits from Rio Grande Models.

Joe

 

[Beachbum]

If you did a modern urban layout, you could sneak a light rail track in there like Denver, etc. Not a streetcar as such, but close.

 

[Charles Smiley]

Consider the Modesto & Empire Traction (Modesto, CA) for a industrial area switching road (has a loop too!) that interchanged with ATSF and SP. Any era from 1950 to 2000 would work.

http://www.metrr.com/sections/map

 

[JoeJ]

If you did a modern urban layout, you could sneak a light rail track in there like Denver, etc. Not a streetcar as such, but close.

Good point. I know the bay area has light rail, and I believe Sacramento does as well. L.A. has Metro Rail which, unfortunately, does not intersect the aforementioned LAJ, but does cross the BNSF Harbor Subdivision near Malabar yard (which, now that I think of it, is small enough that it possible to compress it into a layout).

Of course the Harbor Sub existed (at least in part) in all four of my eras, so if I'd still have to choose.

Joe

 

[dave1905]

1) Old west, ca. 1860-90. ("Urban" in this era would mean a mining boom town: Candelaria, Eureka, or Virginia City in Nevada, or Nevada City in California.)

2) Turn of the century, ca. 1900-10.

You don't have to limit it so some old John Wayne movie charicature. There were steel mills, the start of oil refineries, foundries, shipyards, mills, all sorts of heavy industry. The "old west" isn't all "Petticoat Junction".

3) World War II, 1943-44.

4) Almost modern, ca. 2000. (Back when a lot of equipment was still painted for Santa Fe and Southern Pacific.)

The earlier eras have less available so you HAVE to scratch and kitbuild more of your equipment. More cars were wood so its easier to scratchbuild.

Later eras have more ready built stuff. The 1940's-1950's have more craftsman kits, the more modern era, fewer.

- At my core, I am a model builder, so no RTR unless I really REALLY need something that is not available as a kit and is beyond my ability to scratchbuild. (I'm new to model railroading, but I've been building military models since I was small.) I do want a layout that I can operate, but a good 75% of the fun will still be in building the models.

So what do you want to build, wood cars or steel cars, riveted steel or welded steel? Do you want to build/detail steam, early diesel or modern diesel? Do you want clean equipment or do you want to cover it in graffiti?

Reading books and looking at pictures of trains only increases the list of things I'd like to model, so that's no help. <sigh>

making a somewhat generic urban area would allow you to model anything from the 1940's to 2000 with the same layout. Change out the vehicles and some details, use different equipment and you can model several eras.

 

[Chris Roy]

I've managed to negotiate space for a first layout, and now I can't make up my mind what to do with it. I know that I want to model a real railroad (not freelanced), and I want an urban/industrial setting in the far west - California, Nevada, or possibly Arizona.

What I can't decide is which era to model; there are four that I really like:

1) Old west, ca. 1860-90. ("Urban" in this era would mean a mining boom town: Candelaria, Eureka, or Virginia City in Nevada, or Nevada City in California.)

2) Turn of the century, ca. 1900-10.

3) World War II, 1943-44.

- Layout will be on a 2' wide shelf along two walls of a bedroom that will also be doubling as... a bedroom (so very little chance of any further land grabs at this time). I've got 13' 8" available along one wall and 5' 8" along the other.

- At my core, I am a model builder, so no RTR unless I really REALLY need something that is not available as a kit and is beyond my ability to scratchbuild. (I'm new to model railroading, but I've been building military models since I was small.) I do want a layout that I can operate, but a good 75% of the fun will still be in building the models.

- HO scale or larger. (Any smaller and I start running into problems with poor eyesight and fat fingers.)


Reading books and looking at pictures of trains only increases the list of things I'd like to model, so that's no help. <sigh>

OTOH, I have got some structure kits. Maybe building a diorama or two will help me decide.

Joe

I think I may have a prototype that could fit your needs and interests quite nicely. You mentioned Candelaria, which was served by the Carson & Colorado - what about focusing on the C & C a bit further south and a bit after the turn of the century, in the Owens Valley and under SP ownership. The "Slim Princess" was narrow gauge & steam served until the branch was closed in 1960 (though there was a diesel in the line's latter years as well), and interchange to SP's standard gauge Jawbone Branch was built at Owenyo in 1912. This is a historical line, but it served fairly heavy industry, not diminutive gold-rush style ore dumps. The industrial minerals extraction used extensive and large scale mines and facilities (which were still wooden and very 'modelgenic' in their construction), and the Jawbone Branch was built so that the SP could deliver construction materials for the building of the LA Aqueduct.
With your 'L' Shaped space, you could show some industry on one end (with the line appearing to continue on to Laws), model a portion of Owenyo and the narrow gauge transfer, and some standard gauge disappearing into staging on the short wall.
A lot of the equipment still exists at the Laws RR Museum and on display in towns across the valley, and the history of the area and the line is quite interesting. Also, the history of the aqueduct is rife with confusion, deception, rebellion and other such drama (even if you don't model the line, the book 'Cadillac Desert' is a great read focusing on the battles fought over water in the Owens Valley, as well as the importance and scarcity of water in the west in general).
As for equipment, it's a scratchbuilder's delight!!!

Here are a few links - there are many more:

http://www.owensvalleyhistory.com/carson_n_colorado/page50.html

http://www.carsoncolorado.com/pages/mining.html

http://abandonedrailroads.homestead.com/ca_sp_lonepinebranch.html

http://wsoweb.ladwp.com/Aqueduct/historyoflaa/constructionbegins.htm

http://www.owensvalleyhistory.com/ov_aqueduct1/page18.html

 

[JoeJ]

You don't have to limit it so some old John Wayne movie charicature. There were steel mills, the start of oil refineries, foundries, shipyards, mills, all sorts of heavy industry. The "old west" isn't all "Petticoat Junction".

When I mentioned "old west" boom towns I didn't mean to imply anything like Petticoat Junction. Eureka in 1878 had no less than sixteen smelters processing a total of 745 tons of ore per day. Virginia City at its peak was the second largest city west of the Rocky Mountains (San Francisco was the largest). Nevada City never got quite that large, but at its height it was the third most populous city in California. Hard rock mining was the high tech/heavy industry of that era, and the successful mining towns reflected that.

Joe

 

[JoeJ]

Chris, I mentioned Candelaria because I've always loved the C&C, and was Candelaria was the only location they served that could remotely be described as "urban" even by the standards of 1880s Nevada (and I'll admit it's still a bit of a stretch compared to Virginia City, or even Eureka).

I definitely want to include a busy, active city of some sort, regardless of which era I end up choosing, because:

a) model cities are more visually interesting than most other types of environments.

b) it'll make the layout look larger.

c) most importantly, building a bunch of highly detailed structures will provide many hours of modeling fun.

I've wandered through the Owens Valley a bit, including the wonderful Laws museum. It's a fascinating area, for a number of reasons, but there's nothing along the old narrow gauge route that could fairly be called a town.

Joe

BTW, the C&C also had a transfer trestle at Mound House, but unlike the one in Owenyo, it had the standard gauge cars going up on top to dump (coal IIRC) into the narrow gauge cars underneath.

 

[JoeJ]

Some good ideas in this thread, that have helped me think this through a little more. I've reluctantly decided to scratch the E&P, C&C, and NCNG off the list at this time. The narrow gauge locos from the 1870s and 80s that I've found are all a bit too expensive for right now. I've therefore narrowed down my list to three choices:

1) V&T, Virginia City, ca. 1875-80. This has the big advantage of easy research. Virginia City was very well documented with photos, drawings, and paintings. Also, many of the old buildings are still standing, and since it's only about a 45 minute drive from my house, I can photograph, measure, and/or draw them pretty much at will. The main drawback is that I've heard that most of the V&T locos available in HO scale run very poorly. If that's true, I would have to learn how to replace motors and/or gears before I can get running.

2) SP, Reno, ca. 1905-10. This has the advantage of diversity: Reno at that time boasted two standard gauge steam roads, one narrow gauge, and two electric streetcar lines. The first drawback here is lack of documentation. Reno was not documented nearly as well as Virginia City, and almost all of the old buildings are long gone (although the N-C-O depot, built in 1910, is still standing). A second problem is that I really don't know how I would operate it. Reno didn't have many industrial sidings back then, and I don't think I have room for hidden staging tracks to allow for through trains. (I did, briefly, consider including Reno and Virginia City on the same layout, but it looks like there's no possibility of acquiring enough space for them both.)

3) ATSF, Los Angeles area (esp. the ATSF Harbor Subdivision), three eras possible: 1900-10, 1942-45, and modern. This, again, has the advantage of diversity, with three Class 1 roads, electric streetcar and interurban railroads, and several short lines. On the negative side, early Los Angeles seems to be less well documented than Virginia City (although better than Reno), many of the older buildings were torn down years ago. Also, I can only get to Southern California a couple of times a year. For the modern era, of course, Google and Bing Maps would be a great help.

So those are the choices I'm researching. I just bought "Virginia & Truckee: The Bonanza Road", but I haven't had a chance to read it yet. I've also ordered Phil Serpico's book on the Harbor Sub. Hopefully, I will be able to make a final decision soon.

Joe

P.S., One thing that has helped greatly was the realization that I can still build a model of anything I want to, even if it won't fit on the layout. (I know that's probably bloody obvious to everybody else.)

 

[smiley]

From what you've mentioned so far I would suggest going with the V&T. Being able to see the visit the real thing will add a lot to the fun.

 

[JoeJ]

From what you've mentioned so far I would suggest going with the V&T. Being able to see the visit the real thing will add a lot to the fun.

You may be right. I was in Virginia City the other day taking pictures near the old freight depot, and it looks like it could be modeled on a narrow shelf, using flats for the more distant buildings farther up the hill. A few very recognizable buildings might need to be scratchbuilt, but that's certainly doable.

I've discovered that Rio Grande Models offers several V&T kits in HO scale. There might be others too that I haven't found. I may have to kitbash some of the passenger equipment, though (Which shouldn't be too huge a project - in 1880 the V&T only had 17 passenger cars. It was mostly a freight road.)

I also note that the track arrangement in Virginia City almost looks like it was laid out by a model railroader. The service tracks and roundhouse were separated from the depot area by a tunnel right in the middle of town! And the depot was directly across the tracks from the most important mine of the 1870-80 period, the Con Virginia.

I'm definitely seeing some possibility here. If done right, the V&T could make a spectacular layout. (And if done by ME it might still turn out okay.)

Joe