MTH SD70ACe BNSF 9370

[UP2CSX]

BT, you certainly have an amazing ability to predict the future given two weeks experience with a company's product. However, Atlas, Athearn, MTH, and the rest of the RTR locomotive companies have nothing to fear from each other. They should all fear China. They are all doing tremendous technology transfers with China in return for getting a cheap price and good margin on their products. The Chinese are willing to do this until they have successfully reverse engineered the technology, with enough changes to evade patents. They will then begin to produce model railroad products made by and marketed by Chinese companies for 30% less than they will charge any US company to produce their goods. They will make products as good or better than what's being made today, since we have given them the technology to do so. Imagine that same MTH locomotive with a Chinese brand name and selling for $150 or so. MTH and (insert any other company or companies you want) will fold like a house of cards.

Motorola found out, to its regret, that having the Chinese produce portable two-way radios for them for $100 and selling them here for $600 didn't turn out to be a very good deal at all. After about five years, the Chinese were able to reverse engineer the product and, using the technology transfer provided for free by Motorola, produce a radio that is equal to or superior to the quality and features of Motorola portables and they sell them for about $200. They are kicking Motorola's butt worldwide with these radios and there's not a thing Motorola can do about it. I see no reason why that will not also be the ultimate fate of model railroad companies.

 

[BNTorsney]

F u n

Well I'm glad you enjoy the loco.

As for them taking market share from Athearn, or Kato or anyone else, not until they quit trying to force DCS on everyone. Especially now that Athearn has dumped MRC and is using Soundtraxx Tsunamis in their models. It is good to have choices and competition, it expands the market place for all of us. Like I said in an earlier post, MTH is a pretty polarizing company. They seem to drive people to opposite ends of the spectrum. Mike's penchant for lawsuits has offended many in the hobby. They have yet to come out with anything I'd consider buying, but who knows what the future will bring.

Time will tell, now the Koreans are doing to the Japanese auto makers what they originally did to our auto industry. I don't know whither you have noticed, but the India is starting the same thing with the Chinese. Bottom line, COMPETITION among ANY business is good for the consumer and quality of the product.
When I start my Athearn locomotive, the sound either is on or off. With this MTH there are a couple of engine starting sequences AND engine shut down ones. Would you rather just turn the sound on and off, or listen to this MAMMOTH diesel engine attempting to start up and wind down?
The only thing I completely forgot to mention in this post is a very simple one - F U N! This MTH product MAY not have the perfect SIZE headlamps, but I don't care, it is MUCH more F U N to operate than ANYTHING else Atlas/Kato, Athearn, Walthers or any other have produced to date.
The only slight disappointment I have with MTH, is the choice of what locomotives they choose to build; for 2010 in HO there are two diesels available. Because of the quality and FUN I'm having with my two new locomotives, I have extended the size of my layout to accomodate passenger service; I have two of their Alco PA diesels on pre-order. UNTIL the other companies catch up, I want one or two, or perhaps even three of whatever MTH is producing.

 

[BNTorsney]

With All Due Respect

BT, you certainly have an amazing ability to predict the future given two weeks experience with a company's product. However..........................

With all due respect UP2CSX, it didn't take me than long. After having this MTH locomotive on the track for only a couple of minutes, I KNEW I had something special. As I stated in a previous post, this is the best thing to hit HO since DCC. I have most MAJOR manufactures in my locomotive roster, simply put, they can't come close to what this MTH product has or does.
For all Athearn fans, I have an F45 Genesis, BN 6628, locomotive on my roster. It is less than one year old and has VERY little time on the tracks. I paid over $200 for the unit, anyone interested give me $100 plus postage and it's yours. It will be delivered to your door with ALL original packaging and paperwork.

 

[Espeefan]

When I start my Athearn locomotive, the sound either is on or off. With this MTH there are a couple of engine starting sequences AND engine shut down ones. Would you rather just turn the sound on and off, or listen to this MAMMOTH diesel engine attempting to start up and wind down?

True, for last years Athearn models. I have an MP-15 with that same MRC decoder in it and it's junk. Many in our club have taken these out and replaced them with Tsunamis. Current Athearn models are being equipped with the Tsunami and have the startup and shut down sequences and so forth, so you're comparing last years Athearn with this years MTH.

Athearn changed suppliers to give the customers what they wanted.

When I go shopping for a model I look first and foremost for prototype fidelity, a good drive mechanism, nice paint and lettering, and good DCC hardware/software.

I don't care if it talks or can make a train wreck sound, and I'm not into smoke. I also expect to be able to use all of the features it comes equipped with.

The MTH models get good grades on drives, paint & lettering, overall quality, and pulling power. They get average grades on prototype fidelity, and a failing grade on usability. I won't pay $250.00 for a model I can't consist with my other models, or can't speed match with anything, can't control individual sound volumes, and so on unless I buy their widget to do this. That has to be added to the model cost, which makes them non competitive. I think that's their biggest problem. It looks like they're finally going to fix it. I hope so.

If they fix that, I'll consider their products, if they get around to offering anything I'd be interested in buying.

 

[Cjcrescent]

...When I start my Athearn locomotive, the sound either is on or off. With this MTH there are a couple of engine starting sequences AND engine shut down ones. Would you rather just turn the sound on and off, or listen to this MAMMOTH diesel engine attempting to start up and wind down?
...

Uuhh, If this is one of the things that you consider "superior" and "innovative", BLI diesels with QSI sound units have had this feature since they have been out. That's been several years now. Don't believe me? Talk with Rexhea. He has several and they all have the startup/shutdown sequence. He's owned them for years.

 

[hamltnblue]

That's correct, the BLI's also have a startup sequence with the motors. The difference I see is that if you don't want to run sound with the MTH units, you can simply run the loco and not hit F3. The startup is simply for the sound.
Today I sucessfully consisted my MTH SD70ace with my BLI paragon AC6000 using old style consist. I of course did a speed match prior to consisting.
Something else I learned in the process:
1. Acceleration and Deceleration momentum for MTH works exactly backwards than the standard. MTH does momentum by scale MPH increase and decrease.
setting CV4 to 1 for instance slows the loco down by 1 scale MPH. Setting it to 25 slows at 25 Scale MPH. Standard DCC is 0 for no momentum and 255 for max momentum. So before consisting you have to set CV3 and 4 to 25 to get the near 0 performance of standard.

 

[diburning]

BNTorsney, How much is MTH paying you to shill their products?

 

[hamltnblue]

He's probably the owner of MTH
But after messing with the SD70 for a few days i'd say that it's on par with the the major HO makers. I'd put it even with BLI blueline with DCC. Both are a pain in the butt to work with other engines. They need to do a few simple things to make their product top notch. 1. Individual sound levels in dcc. 2. Speed steps in DCC, at least a minimum of min/max speed scales. 3.fix compatability of momentum so that 0 is none. 4. Fix CV29 so that basic programming such as NCE's will work when changing settings. If you cant make basic changes with nce of digitrax controllers, it isn't going to fly. 5. Add advance consist.

That aside I do like my Ace and will be picking up a twin in the near future. MTH did a good job with it. I just hope they get off of their high horse and realize that they are the betamax in HO trains and need to get with the standard.

 

[ChevelleSSguy]

And stop it with the constant lawsuits. They have alienated many prospective customers with this tactic.

Im wondering if Mikes big battle against Union Pacific back in 06 got to his head and now this is his line of thinking with his company with these lawsuit tactics.

Ill gladly admit, he helped out the hobby by going to bat for (us). That was a pretty big accomplishment to get them to not only see what they were trying to do was a mistake. But he actually got them to open their eyes and realize it was just that. At least thats how I read it in the issue in MR that covered the story. Just pulled that issue out a week or 2 ago looking for a different article. Skimmed through it as I hadnt read it the first time.

Anyways, it must be a pretty good feeling to accomplish something like that.

If you go their DCS system, you will be completely at their mercy, using only what they provide you, and having no access to all the free software that makes running DCC a lot easier. Your choice, but I won't support a company like this, even if they come out with engines that will shine my shoes for me.

However, while MTH makes great performing locos, due to their "toy train shortcuts" they have taken on each loco, their control system thats not compatible with any other, and their (Mike's) business practices, means that I will never own anything from them.

The product so far seems to be good quality and has the potential to compete with the other top brands but they also have to stop trying to shove their proprietary DCS down everyone's throat.

Until MTH stops putting "toy train" details, and "toy train" effects on their models, and they stop trying to shove DCS down our throats, MTH will never be anything more than a minor player in the HO market.

Any engine, no matter how nice it is otherwise, is a disaster in this day and age if it can't do simple DCC functions.

All of these comments are exactly how I feel. It baffles me on how a company that appears from the sound of it. To be making a pretty dang nice locomotive but with the lack of full DCC compatability is just rediculous. There is no way that DCS system is going to compete long term with the other DCC systems that are all compatible according to NMRA standards. What MTH needs to be doing is offering a locomotive with a connector inside that the modeler can install a DCC decoder into and not have to be short changed on effects. Im sure most of us could guarantee they will sell a lot more product. Especially if they run and pull as well as some of the testimonys I am reading here.

But as long as they have this stupid DCS system and I dont get all the effects that most other DCC equipped locomotives have. I wont be considering thier products. Another system that has no compatibility with anything else, like a NMRA standard for that matter, is just stupid marketing and makes no sense to me. No matter how nice the product looks or works.

 

[BNTorsney]

Thank you MTH

............comparing last years Athearn with this years MTH.

What am I suppose to by a new Athearn just to compare it? My locomotive isn't old by any means, if MTH's locomotives are SO superior after just one year, it gives me more incentive to buy another; which I'm planning on. Athearn has a lot of catching up to do before they will ever get any more of my money again.
I agree with what you say about MTH, but I find there locomotive so superior to anything else out there, that I'm willing to put up with it.
If I'm able to UNLOAD lasts years Athearn model, you can bet it will be another MHT diesel that replaces it.
After I get another couple of MTH locomotives, I'm definitely going to purchase their DCS system. Like in the past, when I purchased a newer MRC, I left them both hooked up; in the future it will by my Prodigy for all the older stock and the DCS for MTH.
Any company that is this far advanced over the competition is going to get my business exclusively!

 

[Espeefan]

What am I suppose to by a new Athearn just to compare it? My locomotive isn't old by any means, if MTH's locomotives are SO superior after just one year, it gives me more incentive to buy another; which I'm planning on. Athearn has a lot of catching up to do before they will ever get any more of my money again.
I agree with what you say about MTH, but I find there locomotive so superior to anything else out there, that I'm willing to put up with it.
If I'm able to UNLOAD lasts years Athearn model, you can bet it will be another MHT diesel that replaces it.
After I get another couple of MTH locomotives, I'm definitely going to purchase their DCS system. Like in the past, when I purchased a newer MRC, I left them both hooked up; in the future it will by my Prodigy for all the older stock and the DCS for MTH.
Any company that is this far advanced over the competition is going to get my business exclusively!

Or course not, I was just making the point that your sound issues with the Athearn product no longer exist, and when we compare products ot technologies we should compare current offerings, not last years vs this years.

The perception of your original posts is that you are completely gaga over MTH. OK fine, just remember that the gaga factor wears off after a while, and if you hitch your wagon to their star and go DCS, and lo and belold some other manufacturer makes something you want, you'll be stuck, or have to buy/maintain equipment for two separate operating systems.

It's your railroad dude, buy whatever you want, hell buy stock in the company if you like! .

 

[Espeefan]

Im wondering if Mikes big battle against Union Pacific back in 06 got to his head and now this is his line of thinking with his company with these lawsuit tactics.

Ill gladly admit, he helped out the hobby by going to bat for (us). That was a pretty big accomplishment to get them to not only see what they were trying to do was a mistake. But he actually got them to open their eyes and realize it was just that. At least thats how I read it in the issue in MR that covered the story. Just pulled that issue out a week or 2 ago looking for a different article. Skimmed through it as I hadnt read it the first time.

Anyways, it must be a pretty good feeling to accomplish something like that.

FWIW, This is another little piece of fiction about MTH. Mike Wolf did not single handedly save us from the evil UP lawyers, even though MRN reported it that way. Phil Walthers and our good friends at Atlas had much to do with settling that lawsuit, they just didn't get any press for it, and being a pretty classy guy, Phil hasn't made a stink about it, he's just happy the whole thing is behind us.

 

[BNTorsney]

Or course not, I was just making the point that your sound issues with the Athearn product no longer exist, and when we compare products ot technologies we should compare current offerings, not last years vs this years.

The perception of your original posts is that you are completely gaga over MTH. OK fine, just remember that the gaga factor wears off after a while, and if you hitch your wagon to their star and go DCS, and lo and belold some other manufacturer makes something you want, you'll be stuck, or have to buy/maintain equipment for two separate operating systems.

It's your railroad dude, buy whatever you want, hell buy stock in the company if you like! .

Stock I'm no so sure about, I had very good luck with the stock market once, which put me in a position not to worry TOO much about $300.00 DCS operating systems. The of the reasons I chose HO over O were the cost factors, my luck with the one stock transaction didn't translate into model O railroading; I wish it had Dude!
My first DCC system lasted me twelve years. When I switch to DCS in the near future it will probably be the last operating system for me. I don't need the latest and newest, I'm certain these products I will be happy with for a very long time. I don't know wither you own one, but they are so superior, particularly at slow speeds, you ought to try one.
If it weren't for the disappointment with Athearn, the had my new F45 Genesis for close to three months right after I purchased it, I probably would have purchased their SD70 locomotive. Now that I found MTH, I will not looking at other companies new products, I'm VERY happy with what I now have.

 

[UP2CSX]

First, MTH is a privately held corporation, so you can't buy stock, even if you want to. Second, what makes you think MTH will survive for a very long time? They are a small company compared to giants like Walthers, Atlas, and Horizon hobbies, owners of Athearn. Since they are a privately held company, I can't examine their balance sheets, but I know all model railroad companies have been under considerable financial stress the last two years. If a company like Atlas goes under, their products will work with other company's DCC systems forever. If MTH goes under, DCS goes with them, and no other company will support the system. No matter who good the system, they all eventually have problems and all eventually break. There will be no technical support and no replacement parts available. You are hitching your wagon to a star that may either be on the ascendancy or about to crash to Earth. Only the folks at MTH know how they are doing, and they are not about to tell you. There were people lined up to buy Delorean cars also, because they were supposedly a superior product. That didn't work out so well for the people who got stuck with them. Don't let your current love affair with a few engines blind you to the long-term and fairly expensive risks you are about to take.

 

[Laidoffsick]

Lets not forget that MTH is primarily an O scale company. They are MAJOR competition for Lionel in the 3 rail business and Atlas and everyone else (not many) in the 2 rail O scale business. MTH isn't going anywhere!

How many times has Lionel filed for bankruptcy and changed ownership?

They both have their own systems and support only their own systems. MTH is new to the HO market, they don't care if thier DCS system works with DCC. They want you to buy more MTH equipment!

 

[Cjcrescent]

Lets not forget that MTH is primarily an O scale company. They are MAJOR competition for Lionel in the 3 rail business and Atlas and everyone else (not many) in the 2 rail O scale business. MTH isn't going anywhere!

How many times has Lionel filed for bankruptcy and changed ownership?

They both have their own systems and support only their own systems. MTH is new to the HO market, they don't care if thier DCS system works with DCC. They want you to buy more MTH equipment!

Athearn and Atlas have both been around since the 1940's and Walthers since the 1930's, so I don't think they're going anywhere either. MTH has a long way to go to even begin to challenge them.

Since just about all of us here are modeling in either HO or N scale, what MTH does in O scale has no bearing whatsoever on the subject at hand. The number of times Lionel has declared bankruptcy also has nothing at all to do with a discussion about current HO products.

It has been said more than once here, by more than one poster, if MTH wants to be more than just a MINOR player in the HO market, they had better start caring about working fully with DCC.

DCC is the Standard for digital control, as stated by the NMRA's S-9.1;DCC Electrical Standard and S-9.2 DCC Communications Protocol, which can be read at; http://www.nmra.org/standards/sandrp/consist.html

This is what allows a NCE Decoder to be controlled by a Digitrax, MRC, or Bachmann control unit or a NCE controller to control the other's decoders. Until MTH understands this, MTH HO will either stay a poor cousin to the rest of the HO world, or it will eventually go away.

 

[Cjcrescent]

Carey,

I think I have a P2K PA shell up here that is orphaned. It's lettered for St Louis & Southwestern, and painted Daylight (what else?); I'll look & see if I can turn it up. If I can, want it? I'll be sending the Captain one of his locos back with a sound install & can tuck the shell in the same box. It has the removable skirts and I think the PA-4s had no skirts. Not sure, you tell me.

Let me know.

Did you get my PM? If not, then yes!!!

PA-4's, at least the 5 on the SRR, did not have the skirts.

 

[hamltnblue]

Well, as of a couple of hours ago I successfully performed an advance consist using my MTH SD70ace, a BLI AC6000 paragon, and an Athearn SD60i. It's a little complicated and also bed time but I'll post it tomorrow . Right now I have the couplers off of it to change over to Kadee. The automatic ones are trash. Oh, and I can tell you whomever said that MTH has an upcoming upgrade to make current product more DCC compatible is full of BS.

 

[ChevelleSSguy]

FWIW, This is another little piece of fiction about MTH. Mike Wolf did not single handedly save us from the evil UP lawyers, even though MRN reported it that way. Phil Walthers and our good friends at Atlas had much to do with settling that lawsuit, they just didn't get any press for it, and being a pretty classy guy, Phil hasn't made a stink about it, he's just happy the whole thing is behind us.

Alan. I have to correct myself because your right and I knew that. I completly missworded my previous post and should have made that more clear. It was Mike that took it on all by himself. He just took center stage as the guy to stand up for the model railroading hobby.

Kind of like what Dee Snider of the metal band Twisted Sister did back in the late 80s when he went in front of congress to stand up for rock music.

 

[BNTorsney]

Optimistic

First, MTH is a privately held corporation, so you can't buy stock, even if you want to. Second, what makes you think MTH will survive for a very long time? They are a small company compared to giants like Walthers, Atlas, and Horizon hobbies, owners of Athearn. Since they are a privately held company, I can't examine their balance sheets, but I know all model railroad companies have been under considerable financial stress the last two years. If a company like Atlas goes under, their products will work with other company's DCC systems forever. If MTH goes under, DCS goes with them, and no other company will support the system. No matter who good the system, they all eventually have problems and all eventually break. There will be no technical support and no replacement parts available. You are hitching your wagon to a star that may either be on the ascendancy or about to crash to Earth. Only the folks at MTH know how they are doing, and they are not about to tell you. There were people lined up to buy Delorean cars also, because they were supposedly a superior product. That didn't work out so well for the people who got stuck with them. Don't let your current love affair with a few engines blind you to the long-term and fairly expensive risks you are about to take.

I read ONE story how this guy started the company in his basement and I was impressed. Why was Ford Motor Company the ONLY American company NOT to take a government handout? It HAS to be the people in control.
Any company that can produce quality like this in this economy, I take a chance on. I think MTH will survive and do well - time will tell.
I canceled the MTH Alco locomotive and passenger cars, deciding to say with freight. In it's place I ordered a third SD70ACe, the EMD Demonstrator. They are coming out with a new HO catalog in the spring. When I get enough of them on my layout, I'll take a chance and purchase their DCS system.