Model train layouts: Diesel VS Steam

[NP2626]

The only thing I can use, to form my opinion, is what I see in videos. I supposed that the steam engine not having been around for almost 60 years might have something to do with this. However, it sure seems to me that diesel has surpassed steam, as the choice of modelers. Manufacturers produce more diesels than steam locomotives by a fairly large percentage and now that we all have the opinion that we must have actual designed models for the road we model, makes steam locomotives a chancy investment for the manufactures. USRA designs pretty much pervade steam engine offerings. However, I'm of the opinion that today's modelers really aren't interested in modeling the steam or transition era, anyway!

What do you think?

 

[Selector]

Just like in real life, the diesels are somewhat simpler, at least on the outside. Inside, the mechanisms are essentially the same...a motor, gear tower and driveshaft, and geared driving axles. Outside, steamers have all the running gear, and it's delicate.

Steam was dropped on the last holdout, the Norfolk & Western Railway based out of Virginia, in early 1960. That's a few decades in the past. Also, railways in general are not salient any more. They are not so visible, and when they are, they're making people angry because they are holding up traffic at crossings. Diesel is what they see, so diesel is what they find fascinating if they wish to model.

However, I couldn't agree with your last statement. I read many times here and on about five other forums when the topic arises that young men love steam. Steam captivates people because of the noise, the smell, and the motion. This is not to say that everyone feels that way, but enough of them do that steam models will be around for the foreseeable future.

 

[tootnkumin]

The other factor of course is price, you can buy 2 or maybe 2.5 diesel models for what you pay for 1 steam. From my observation here in the clubs I visit, steam models are in good health, popularity wise. I would love to have at least one. The SP's #4449 GS4 Daylight, because it has visited MRL twice, maybe even 3 times at the head of the AAPRCO train. We also have quite a few British modellers in my main club and their focus is heavily towards steam. There is nothing quite so thrilling as the thrashing of connecting rods, pistons and valve gear at speed.

Here's something from NZ with it's 3'6" gauge and 4-8-4's with 4'6" drivers that really accentuate that attribute, video qualities not so good and you'll need 2 1/2 hours to spare. Hope you enjoy (and you get to listen to that great Kiwi accent as a bonus)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hA6_BwZhU-A

 

[montanan]

I do know some folks that are all steam modeling an era before diesels really became popular. George Sellios' Franklin & South Manchester was absolutely all steam when I got to visit his layout but I see that now there are a few diesels in service there.

I model the transition era because of the great memories I have from when I was a kid growing up with the railroad. I only got to ride on a couple of NP steamers, a Challenger and a Yellowstone as a helper over Bozeman Pass. Never saw any Milwaukee Road steamers out here in Montana but did see some in action further east when traveling by rail to Chicago.

The time period I chose was the summer of 1957. Steam was on its way out but by freelancing I can still have a few steamers in action along with diesels. Here a photo that show the engine servicing area with the loaling tower still in operation even though there is a train departing the yard with diesel power.



The next is a consolidation on a scratch built turntable that was donated to me. Couldn't pass it up. It is close to 50 years old powered by an old player piano motor.



Steam is cool and I really enjoy it.

Over the years my wife and I have ridden on many many steam railroads across the country in out travels. So what if it a couple of hundred mile detour. It's worth it.

The Virginia & Truckee is a regular stop for us as we usually drive down to Reno, NV a few times a year for national bowling tournaments and Virginia City is a quick ride.

Toot - Nice video.

 

[trailrider]

I grew up in the 1940's, '50's and 60's. When I was only 2 years old I was given a ride in a steam switch engine in Oklahoma. I vaguely recall being scared half to death! As a kid I rode the Burlington Zephyrs, and most of my memories of the motive power was passing it in the station on the way to the passenger cars. These were all E7's. As a young teen we moved to the suburbs of Chicago, and initially, the commuter trains were old heavyweight cars pulled by Pacifics and Ten-Wheelers, with an Atlantic (I think) thrown in. They broke down, they were late, and as soon as Ben Heineman took over the C&NW, he replaced the steamers with diesels and double-decker commuter cars. So, yes, I model diesel-powered passenger trains.

But...there is something fascinating about steam locomotives and their visible power, noise and mechanisms. So some of the first HO locomotives I built from kits were steamers. Later, I began to kitbash heavier steam from Mantua/Tyco kits and rtr. I have only recently gone to DCC with sound (no other reason than for the sound on my layout...a one-man operation), and initially I stuck to factory-equipped DCC/Sound diesels. But I am now starting to equip a few of my steamers with DCC and sound. Cost being what it is today, I won't convert them all...not with over thirty, many of which are way too small to put decoders in. But I do decry the demise of the old Mantua and Bowser steamers. I'm no youngster, so I'm not representative of the younger modelers today. But I would hope steam won't disappear from the hobby altogether.

 

[NP2626]

As far as predicting that steam power is eventually going to stop being modeled, who knows, it certainly might happen at some point in the future; but, that is not where I was really going with my opinions on Diesel vs Steam. I was only commenting on the fact that when I visit YouTube, Model Railroader Video Plus; or, the videos people post here at the Model Railroad Forums, it sure seems that diesels are more popular.

Myself, I model the transition era. This is the period of time (the 50s) when I was a young child. I have memories of steam locomotives doing their work along the drives my family took. Steam left it's mark on me and I will never forget watching it and hearing the sounds it made!

 

[NP2626]

Per Tootnkumin: "The other factor of course is price, you can buy 2 or maybe 2.5 diesel models for what you pay for 1 steam." At ModelTrainStuff, looking to compare apples to apples, I find Broadway Limited's Pennsy K-4 Pacific with a price of $319.99 and a SD 40-2 to have a price of $199.00. Going to Athearn Genisis I find a GP 39-2 Sound and DCC to have a price of $229.48 and and a Southern Pacific MT-4 4-8-2 to have a price of $314.99. Then if I look at Rivarossi, I find their sound DCC equipped two truck Heisler to sell for $263.99 and their GE U-25-C with sound and DCC to sell for $199.99!

I will agree that steam does cost more; but not by 2 to 2.5 times the cost of diesel, at least here in the United States. I have no idea what prices are in Queensland Australia.

 

[tootnkumin]

I'm a politician.

 

[new guy]

Diesels are a representation of "what IS" and Steam is a reminder of "what was". No choice for me but transition era.

"It's ALL good"! As long as there are model rails being sold, Steam Engines will be too!

 

[Sirfoldalot]

The hobby is getting ridiculously expensive for either one.

 

[Red Oak & Western]

The hobby is getting ridiculously expensive for either one.

Not sure I agree. In 1964, when I started modeling in HO, a McDonald's cheeseburger was $.11. Today, it's $1.00. I bought an Athearn SW1500 for $14.95 at the local hobby shop. If you apply the same inflation ratio (yes, an oversimplification, I know) an SW1500 today should cost $135.91. The actual (street) prices run $89.99 (TrainWorld) to $93.99 (MB Klein) with an MSRP of $124.99.

So it just seems that everything is ridiculously expensive, especially to those of us who remember $.25 a gallon gasoline and $5.00 dress shirts.

 

[Iron Horseman]

So it just seems that everything is ridiculously expensive, especially to those of us who remember $.25 a gallon gasoline and $5.00 dress shirts.

I agree. Toy trains not any worse than anything else. Good old inflation that our government insists is virtually non-existent. It is just hidden in all the taxes charged to businesses that just pass it on in the consumer products. Now we will raise the minimum wage to copensage and get a new round of price increases coming through. Seems congress never thinks these things all the way through. One patch after another. One unintended consequence after another.

But back to the point of the thread...
It is harder to have a desire to model something that is no ever present. Used to be steam trains were a way of life for everyone. Go to NYC, take the train. Paper boy have the papers thrown off the train to him. Order from Sears and wait for it to arrive on the express.

As someone else said trains have really fallen into the background, and there just aren't that many steam engines running, let alone front and center, to inspire any young people to model them.

Finally they are so unique compared to diesels. Diesels are a factory assembly line thing, while steam engines were pretty much all custom built things. Creating tooling for each railroads class of Pacific or Mikado is very expensive for a vendor vs cranking out another F or SD70e that many/most/almost all railroads use(d).

 

[Y3a]

For me model Railroading died when Bowser quit producing steam locomotive kits. The std 'plastic choo-choo's' were all to light to pull well. Most were poorly quartered so they rocked and easily binded going around curves. I would take (for example) a Bowser USRA 4-8-2 and re-quarter the drivers and either use an aftermarket drive (Helix Humpers) or swap in a NWSL 28:1 gearbox, and use a better can motor with flywheel. A Metal locomotive with strong smooth drive and parts that should last 10-15 years of regular use. They could pull 25 Athearn Blue box heavyweights, or 40+ freight cars up a 3% grade. Traction tires will eventually wear out, but Bowser didn't need them. I've built 10-20 of the 2-8-0 H9's 4 PRR2-10-0's, a Challenger (DAM!) and 10 or so 2-8-0 "Old Ladys" along with 3 USRA 4-8-2's and a PRR K4 that I converted to a N&W K3 also with Helix Humper motor. The ONLY thing that can pull like those Bowsers is rebuilt Brass models that have had the springs replaced with the most stiff, and the boilers were weighted including perhaps lead sheet in the cab under the roof. All my steam has been re-quartered.

 

[Selector]

I have always understood that those who claim that a hobby is too expensive are also admitting that they have more pressing demands on their discretionary income, and more responsibility to deal with that reality, than those who have not/yet to complain about the costs. It's a pastime. It's meant to use up your after-responsibility time and other resources, including money. I'm not swimming in money, but I can save up for four or five months, say about $50/mo, and then be able to get what I want. Most people will pay for the inflated price of a coffee with friends without giving it a second thought, but when it comes to hobby expenses, that seems to be off limits. Well, guess what...the people importing these things for you also have to live with inflation. Their costs of doing business rise with time, and so do their personal expenses at home.

 

[NP2626]

I'm a politician.

It shows; but, you are a good one! Good ones are in very short supply here in the U.S.

 

[NP2626]

So, I guess now that the discussion on both Steam and Diesel costs being ridiculously too high, the discussion on which is modeled more often today, is over? Did we agree that Diesel seems to have taken over?

 

[dave1905]

So, I guess now that the discussion on both Steam and Diesel costs being ridiculously too high, the discussion on which is modeled more often today, is over? Did we agree that Diesel seems to have taken over?

I don't know that I would phrase it that way. Contemporary models are almost always popular. Model railroading really took off in the 1950's when diesels were replacing steam in the real world. So from the standpoint of "taking over" that probably happened back in 1960-1965 when the first F units started being produced.

Having watched model railroading for the last 50 years, I would say just the opposite, that steam has made a resurgence. If you look back 30 years ago steam was pretty much dead. There are dozens of models available now.

 

[santafewillie]

I have to agree with Dave. I see more offerings in steam than I ever saw in 35+ years. When I go on the home layout tours associated with the local model railroad shows, I see mostly steam layouts. Many of the club layouts are primarily steam, although they do clear it off for the dieselers every once in a while. Only the "N" scalers seem to lean toward modern diesel, maybe because of the lack of quality steam equipment in that scale.
Willie

 

[NP2626]

I don't know that I would phrase it that way. Contemporary models are almost always popular. Model railroading really took off in the 1950's when diesels were replacing steam in the real world. So from the standpoint of "taking over" that probably happened back in 1960-1965 when the first F units started being produced.

Having watched model railroading for the last 50 years, I would say just the opposite, that steam has made a resurgence. If you look back 30 years ago steam was pretty much dead. There are dozens of models available now.

I was involved in the hobby back in the mid 1960s and can tell you that steam was very popular back then and there was no "taking over" of diesels going on back then. Certainly diesels where available back then and may have been every bit as popular as steam. Having been seriously involved in the hobby for 28 years, I've never thought that steam needed; or, experienced any type of resurgence. What has happened is manufacturers are offering very detailed plastic locos, in both steam and diesel choices.

My point with my comment: "So, I guess now that the discussion on both Steam and Diesel costs being ridiculously too high, the discussion on which is modeled more often today, is over? Did we agree that Diesel seems to have taken over?" was pretty much "Tongue in Cheek" and an attempt to get back to the original topic of the thread.

Dave H. Isn't it interesting how we all come away from things with different opinions on how they work? I'm good with your opinions and certainly feel you are entitled. Best wishes!

 

[NP2626]

I have to agree with Dave. I see more offerings in steam than I ever saw in 35+ years. When I go on the home layout tours associated with the local model railroad shows, I see mostly steam layouts. Many of the club layouts are primarily steam, although they do clear it off for the dieselers every once in a while. Only the "N" scalers seem to lean toward modern diesel, maybe because of the lack of quality steam equipment in that scale.
Willie

Since I have never gone on any layout tours I don't have an opinion on your statement. I based my opinions on videos I have viewed on the internet. Using this as where my information is coming from, I felt that Diesels layouts and even contemporary diesel layouts seem to be taking over.