First Layout - Doable?

[Barry]

Hey all,
Below you will find my first attempt at designing a layout. It is
HO scale and I plan on using Atlas Code 83 n/s flextrack and radiussed sections from 18-22".
I was thinking about getting a trainset kit at first and then expand the set to what you
see in the layout (or something like it that will work)! The train will be a modest freight set to start. I
would like to add a few different engines later, including a nice small steamer along with some
other cars (log car, ore car, etc...) but essentially just a small set with ~8 pieces. My son loves steam trains!
The era would be modern and based on a small wilderness town based on natural resources.
I think I have done enough research to at least make the first attempt at designing a layout
that I could learn and experiment along the way with.

I have plenty of experience with model making, woodworking and carpentry but this is my first
attempt at the train hobby world. I would go with basic DC for now, but I do have several joins
and switches in the layout. Switching could be manual, but I would like to wire them.

I would be very appreciative if some of you folks could critique my design.
Firstly, does the layout make sense or are there some things that make you cringe! ? ol
I have several junctions in there, a couple of which are on sloped areas...avoid this? possibly ok?
What power is sufficient for a layout like this?
Please recommend a good starter kit that I can expand with to get to this stage in the future.

I think that's enough questions for now, help me get started in the right direction!
Thanks!
Barry

 

[trailrider]

I'm sure you will get dozens of replies, but here is my two cents. Is there access to the layout from the 12-ft. side? If not, and your drawing is to scale, you may have some trouble reaching the center from the cut-out on the other side. Access will also depend on your height and the height of the table top, unless you use a Micro-Mark Topside Creeper.

I'm not sure what you mean by a "basic kit". While there are packaged trains that include an engine of some kind (diesel or steam) and have a minimal sized power pack, I would buy individual rolling stock, including the locomotive, and a power pack that would have a high enough wattage (or volt-amps) rating that would handle two engines. That would be somewhere in the 3.0 amp range or greater. If you think you might eventually go to DCC, you might consider investing in a Model Rectifier Corp (MRC), Tech6 6.0, which would give you the choice of DC or DCC, although not with the ultimate utility of a pure DCC power pack. I run primarily DC because I have over 50 locomotives that I've acquired over the past 60+ years, and am not about to afford or have the time to convert them. I have some DCC with sound on a few locomotives, so the Tech6 does me well. But, I would suggest starting with DCC, if you intend to run more than one loco at the same time. (I have difficulty walking and chewing gum at the same time, and operate primarily alone, so usually run a single train at a time. Hope this helps some. Welcome to the hobby, and best of luck!

 

[Motley]

I like the track plan, it will give you long mainline runs. The over under loop on the lower left, you don't have enough track run to get 3 inches of clearance (top of railhead to bottom of bridge) on a 2% grade.

One thing that might work. Use a 2" pink foam base for the layout. And the lower track will have to go down into the foam about 1 inch, and the higher track will rise 2 inches. In order to get the 3 inches of seperation needed. Do not go over anything greater than a 2% grade, or you will have issues with locos pulling your trains up a steep grade.

 

[JimT]

Looks good enough barring the back "access" pretty ambitious too. I'm trying to re-enter the hobby after a fifteen year layoff. Your plan might be a little ambitious for me. Welcome to Model Railroading, its a great hobby.

 

[otiscnj]

Welcome to the forums!

A few comments on your design:
1)There are not industry or true passing sidings, to store extra trains/freight cars/etc, beyond the bypass loop, and mountain loop tracks and by the station. While the proportions of your table make be correct, using standard components (code 83 sectional track and switches, and/or flext track), your final product will only vaugly look like what you've drawn.

2)Try drawing your plan on a piece of paper, to scale, using a ruler and compass. That's the way I started, and I learned real fast what using 18" radius allowed me to do, and not do. Your loop around the mine area, won't have much more than a 3" section of straight track, in it, and the track around the farm field, won't have much more than a 3" straight section at the 'bottom' of the table, also.

3)Eventually, you may wish to get a second locomotive and train, and at this point, you'll probably have to make major changes to your track plan, and perhaps wiring, too, to allow 2 train operation.

4)Quality sets cost more money(ie sets with a better locomotive and 'powerpacks/transformers/controllers'). Although you make like the locomotive or freight cars that come with a certain, over/under/figure 8 set, many times, the locomotives are to weak to pull the train up the hill, and frequently derail coming down.

5)FWIW, I came up with plans like this years ago, when I first got into the hobby. If you were going to build the layout in N scale, you might be able to make it very similar to your drawing, and have it run reliably. If you're going to build it in HO, I doubt the final product will be able to include all the track and scenic features, as you've drawn, with much in the way of any type of reliable operations, no matter how hard you try. I wouldn't let that stop me, however. You are starting out with a very generously sized layout. Most people if they had that amount of space, might plan on using wider curves, as things will run more reliably, or switch scales to N, to be able to include all the scenic features, and track plan, as depicted.

As long as you're willing to learn what works and what doesn't, and your customer (child) is pleased with the progress, it should be a fun learning experience. If you child doesn't have much in the way of patience, and expects you to complete the whole thing in 1 night, then you might consider looking on the web for a trackplan, in the scale you want, for the space you have, that others have come up with, which will suit your needs, and will cause fewer headaches for you, your customer, and your financial officer, both in the long and short term. Remember, you can always modify an existing plan. Also, like anything else, unless you have deep enough pockets to pay someone to build it for you, like most things, model trains can be involving, fun life long hobbie, however can take time to get things right, or the way you originally envisioned them.

Good luck, and keep us informed as you progress.

Otis

 

[fcwilt]

The sections labeled "Bypass" - what purpose do they serve from the railroad point of view - think in terms of the business a railroad is in.

You might want to invest in one or more of the books that can teach you all you need to know about satisfying model railroad design.

Here are some of them:

http://www.kalmbachstore.com/modelt...g-special-issues-model-railroad-planning.html

There are also books of plans from which you can gather ideas:

This is one of the classics:

http://www.amazon.com/Hundred-Track-Railroaders-Railroad-Handbook/dp/0890245126

Then check out one of the many programs you can make designing a practical railroad much easier:

This one is free:

http://www.anyrail.com/index_en.html

This is the one I use but it is not free although there is a demo version:

http://www.eldoradosoft.com/

Using such a program can help prevent you from making common mistakes such as curves with kinks or too steep grades.

 

[otiscnj]

If your son is very young, you might just consider buying some sort of O-scale or O-gauge ("Lionel") set. They have several with steam engines, and the tracks can be laid on the floor, without the need for a table, and run very reliably. Why make things hard on yourself?


Yes, O train sets are more expensive, but they generally last longer than many of the 'toy train sets' in a smaller scale.

If your son remains interested, even after he realizes that 'all the trains do is run in a circle,' then you can add track and switches as you and he so desire, without the large outlay of funds to build a layout, before you know whether he's interested or not. Depending on his age, HO trains may be to small for him to reliably handle.

 

[Jim 68cuda]

I like the track plan, but agree that unfortunantly, the curves shown in the drawing are too tight of a radius to run trains on. I think that you'll be able to make it work but won't have the space you were hoping for to use for scenery. For example, the loop around the mine will likely mean eliminating the field and playground for the school and relocating the school itself. Also the " farm bypass" and "mountain loop" will likley mean eliminating or moving the lake, and the farm field will likely be bisected by the main line.

 

[Iron Horseman]

I would be very appreciative if some of you folks could critique my design.
Firstly, does the layout make sense or are there some things that make you cringe!

Yes, double cringe. The big "S" curve that goes from the back of the layout and then around the open pit mine in the front will not fit in 6 feet of space. I know 18" radius times 4 is six feet, but track is measured from the center line. Even accounting for the overlap in the middle of the "S" as designed with 18" radius the track would overlap the top and bottom by about 1/4". That doesn't even address the "S" curve problems (the second cringe). To work well this would need to be at least 7'.

I don't see any curves that look like they would be 22" most look closer to 15" which in HO scale is considered to be very sharp. I don't understand the purpose of the mountain loop or the farm bypass. Usually the point of having a large space is to let the trains stretch out and run, not to re-constrict them to the same circle they would have if the layout space was a 4'x4' board.

With this much space you could do some really cool things. We just need to know what the goals of the project are. This looks to me like the layout was designed for 1 train that will just run and take alternate paths, is that truly the goal? That is an OK goal but I think it can be done better. A small wilderness town can be worked into almost any track plan.

Here is a layout that is amazing to operate and the concept could easily be modified to fit your space. I even did a version in a 4x8 space for my son. Here the trains would originate in the front yard (small town) go out to the forest or mine to collect the timber or ore and then bring it back to the front yard to be made into lumber and milled.

http://www.atlasrr.com/Code100web/pages/10020.htm
or this one

What power is sufficient for a layout like this?

Power has very little to do with the track design and a whole lot to do with the trains that are run on it. Whatever power supply comes with the set will be sufficient for 1 train if wired properly.

Please recommend a good starter kit that I can expand with to get to this stage in the future.

Most sets are just toy trains so you have to be careful. Plus even the good sets often come with track one would really rather not have.

Atlas is a good brand. Unfortunately the sets come with "True-Track". Yuck. Oh well. Track is the cheapest part.
http://www.caboosehobbies.com/catalog/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=&products_id=185971

Athearn are good trains. Unfortunately they come with Bachmann EZ-track. Also yuck.
http://www.caboosehobbies.com/catalog/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=&products_id=92114

Bachmann makes a "top of the line" brand called Spectrum. A Spectrum set is worth considering (or one with the 2-8-0 locomotive as the 2-8-0 is a Spectrum). This example I found has the DCC controller so it is higher price than one with a normal power supply would be.
http://www.thefavoritespot.com/p-39...is-dcc-tsunami-sound-commander-c-o-01401.aspx
http://www.trainworldonline.com/catalog/bachmann/western-maryland-frontiersman-freight-set-01302

Walthers MIGHT be OK. I've have no experience with them directly.
http://www.trainsetsonly.com/page/TSO/PROD/931-870

Avoid sets by Lifelike, MTH, Model Power, regular brand Bachmann.

 

[Barry]

Thank you all for the wonderful replies!
I have a lot to digest and will get to each one asap.
Cheers
Barry

 

[logandsawman]

Welcome to the forums!

1) There are not industry or true passing sidings, to store extra trains/freight cars/etc

2) Try drawing your plan on a piece of paper, to scale, using a ruler and compass.

5) might plan on using wider curves, as things will run more reliably

Good luck, and keep us informed as you progress.

Otis

One thing I have learned from this website is that not the same things make everyone happy. Or, different things may be more important to different people.

The copied quotes may apply to just about everyone.

Having a place to park your train, and using some insulated joiners, you could park one train and run another with DC, simply and right off the bat. Wider track radius will creat a better looking layout and allow you to run a wider variety of stuff.

Have fun with your hobby!!!!!!! lasm

 

[Barry]

I'm sure you will get dozens of replies, but here is my two cents. Is there access to the layout from the 12-ft. side? If not, and your drawing is to scale, you may have some trouble reaching the center from the cut-out on the other side. Access will also depend on your height and the height of the table top, unless you use a Micro-Mark Topside Creeper.

I'm not sure what you mean by a "basic kit". While there are packaged trains that include an engine of some kind (diesel or steam) and have a minimal sized power pack, I would buy individual rolling stock, including the locomotive, and a power pack that would have a high enough wattage (or volt-amps) rating that would handle two engines. That would be somewhere in the 3.0 amp range or greater. If you think you might eventually go to DCC, you might consider investing in a Model Rectifier Corp (MRC), Tech6 6.0, which would give you the choice of DC or DCC, although not with the ultimate utility of a pure DCC power pack. I run primarily DC because I have over 50 locomotives that I've acquired over the past 60+ years, and am not about to afford or have the time to convert them. I have some DCC with sound on a few locomotives, so the Tech6 does me well. But, I would suggest starting with DCC, if you intend to run more than one loco at the same time. (I have difficulty walking and chewing gum at the same time, and operate primarily alone, so usually run a single train at a time. Hope this helps some. Welcome to the hobby, and best of luck!

Thanks for the info. I will have full access during the building phase, but plan to have it against a wall eventually. To reach things, I may have to modify during the build. I have a long reach, but not freakishly long! lol

 

[Barry]

I like the track plan, it will give you long mainline runs. The over under loop on the lower left, you don't have enough track run to get 3 inches of clearance (top of railhead to bottom of bridge) on a 2% grade.

One thing that might work. Use a 2" pink foam base for the layout. And the lower track will have to go down into the foam about 1 inch, and the higher track will rise 2 inches. In order to get the 3 inches of seperation needed. Do not go over anything greater than a 2% grade, or you will have issues with locos pulling your trains up a steep grade.

I have removed the mine loop with over/under bridge. I do plan on using 1 or 2 inch foam, probably 2 inch to accommodate the negative elevation of the mine.

 

[Barry]

Welcome to the forums!

A few comments on your design:
1)There are not industry or true passing sidings, to store extra trains/freight cars/etc, beyond the bypass loop, and mountain loop tracks and by the station. While the proportions of your table make be correct, using standard components (code 83 sectional track and switches, and/or flext track), your final product will only vaugly look like what you've drawn.

2)Try drawing your plan on a piece of paper, to scale, using a ruler and compass. That's the way I started, and I learned real fast what using 18" radius allowed me to do, and not do. Your loop around the mine area, won't have much more than a 3" section of straight track, in it, and the track around the farm field, won't have much more than a 3" straight section at the 'bottom' of the table, also.

3)Eventually, you may wish to get a second locomotive and train, and at this point, you'll probably have to make major changes to your track plan, and perhaps wiring, too, to allow 2 train operation.

4)Quality sets cost more money(ie sets with a better locomotive and 'powerpacks/transformers/controllers'). Although you make like the locomotive or freight cars that come with a certain, over/under/figure 8 set, many times, the locomotives are to weak to pull the train up the hill, and frequently derail coming down.

5)FWIW, I came up with plans like this years ago, when I first got into the hobby. If you were going to build the layout in N scale, you might be able to make it very similar to your drawing, and have it run reliably. If you're going to build it in HO, I doubt the final product will be able to include all the track and scenic features, as you've drawn, with much in the way of any type of reliable operations, no matter how hard you try. I wouldn't let that stop me, however. You are starting out with a very generously sized layout. Most people if they had that amount of space, might plan on using wider curves, as things will run more reliably, or switch scales to N, to be able to include all the scenic features, and track plan, as depicted.

As long as you're willing to learn what works and what doesn't, and your customer (child) is pleased with the progress, it should be a fun learning experience. If you child doesn't have much in the way of patience, and expects you to complete the whole thing in 1 night, then you might consider looking on the web for a trackplan, in the scale you want, for the space you have, that others have come up with, which will suit your needs, and will cause fewer headaches for you, your customer, and your financial officer, both in the long and short term. Remember, you can always modify an existing plan. Also, like anything else, unless you have deep enough pockets to pay someone to build it for you, like most things, model trains can be involving, fun life long hobbie, however can take time to get things right, or the way you originally envisioned them.

Good luck, and keep us informed as you progress.

Otis

1. There is a yard shown in green for storing cars/locos, just a rough idea.
2. Good info
3. I do plan to have 2 or maybe 3 loco's. But plan to run one train at a time.
4. N-Scale would be too small for my son I think, he is almost 6 by the way.
We love doing projects together and he is actually very patient with things like this.
We can do temporary layouts on the table or floor anytime which will be fine.

Thanks!

 

[Barry]

The sections labeled "Bypass" - what purpose do they serve from the railroad point of view - think in terms of the business a railroad is in.

You might want to invest in one or more of the books that can teach you all you need to know about satisfying model railroad design.

Here are some of them:

http://www.kalmbachstore.com/modelt...g-special-issues-model-railroad-planning.html

There are also books of plans from which you can gather ideas:

This is one of the classics:

http://www.amazon.com/Hundred-Track-Railroaders-Railroad-Handbook/dp/0890245126

Then check out one of the many programs you can make designing a practical railroad much easier:

This one is free:

http://www.anyrail.com/index_en.html

This is the one I use but it is not free although there is a demo version:

http://www.eldoradosoft.com/

Using such a program can help prevent you from making common mistakes such as curves with kinks or too steep grades.

The bypass is just an attempt to incorporate some variation to avoid boredom. Thanks for the links!

 

[Barry]

If your son is very young, you might just consider buying some sort of O-scale or O-gauge ("Lionel") set. They have several with steam engines, and the tracks can be laid on the floor, without the need for a table, and run very reliably. Why make things hard on yourself?


Yes, O train sets are more expensive, but they generally last longer than many of the 'toy train sets' in a smaller scale.

If your son remains interested, even after he realizes that 'all the trains do is run in a circle,' then you can add track and switches as you and he so desire, without the large outlay of funds to build a layout, before you know whether he's interested or not. Depending on his age, HO trains may be to small for him to reliably handle.

An O-scale Lionel set is definitely an option, that was the first place I looked based on the recommendation of my boss.
Expensive to expand though....but you never know! They look awesome.
Why make things hard on myself?? I like a challenge and new projects. I am just finishing up two guitar builds
from scratch, time to find another challenge! lol

 

[Barry]

Yes, double cringe. The big "S" curve that goes from the back of the layout and then around the open pit mine in the front will not fit in 6 feet of space. I know 18" radius times 4 is six feet, but track is measured from the center line. Even accounting for the overlap in the middle of the "S" as designed with 18" radius the track would overlap the top and bottom by about 1/4". That doesn't even address the "S" curve problems (the second cringe). To work well this would need to be at least 7'.

I don't see any curves that look like they would be 22" most look closer to 15" which in HO scale is considered to be very sharp. I don't understand the purpose of the mountain loop or the farm bypass. Usually the point of having a large space is to let the trains stretch out and run, not to re-constrict them to the same circle they would have if the layout space was a 4'x4' board.

With this much space you could do some really cool things. We just need to know what the goals of the project are. This looks to me like the layout was designed for 1 train that will just run and take alternate paths, is that truly the goal? That is an OK goal but I think it can be done better. A small wilderness town can be worked into almost any track plan.

Here is a layout that is amazing to operate and the concept could easily be modified to fit your space. I even did a version in a 4x8 space for my son. Here the trains would originate in the front yard (small town) go out to the forest or mine to collect the timber or ore and then bring it back to the front yard to be made into lumber and milled.

http://www.atlasrr.com/Code100web/pages/10020.htm
or this one

Power has very little to do with the track design and a whole lot to do with the trains that are run on it. Whatever power supply comes with the set will be sufficient for 1 train if wired properly.

Most sets are just toy trains so you have to be careful. Plus even the good sets often come with track one would really rather not have.

Atlas is a good brand. Unfortunately the sets come with "True-Track". Yuck. Oh well. Track is the cheapest part.
http://www.caboosehobbies.com/catalog/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=&products_id=185971

Athearn are good trains. Unfortunately they come with Bachmann EZ-track. Also yuck.
http://www.caboosehobbies.com/catalog/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=&products_id=92114

Bachmann makes a "top of the line" brand called Spectrum. A Spectrum set is worth considering (or one with the 2-8-0 locomotive as the 2-8-0 is a Spectrum). This example I found has the DCC controller so it is higher price than one with a normal power supply would be.
http://www.thefavoritespot.com/p-39...is-dcc-tsunami-sound-commander-c-o-01401.aspx
http://www.trainworldonline.com/catalog/bachmann/western-maryland-frontiersman-freight-set-01302

Walthers MIGHT be OK. I've have no experience with them directly.
http://www.trainsetsonly.com/page/TSO/PROD/931-870

Avoid sets by Lifelike, MTH, Model Power, regular brand Bachmann.

Great info and advice, thanks! The Bachmann Spectrum set and the other locos looks great.

 

[Barry]

Here is a modified layout, version 1.2 lol.
Removed the loops, opened up my curves quite a bit.
I could modify to have a modified figure-8 similar to the
first layout posted by Iron Horseman...
Maybe this is something I can work with? If so, next step is
to do a properly scaled layout and see what I come up with.
B

 

[Iron Horseman]

Here is a version of your layout done to scale. I could have followed your sketch a little closer, but it is getting late and I thought this at least gives some idea of real sized curves. Smallest radius is 18", but I tried to do easements with 22". I put sidings into your loading areas. I'm working one that I think captures some of the flavor of your original. I cannot remember how to tell this software to fill in the track.

 

[Barry]

That looks great, thank you!