Dynamic Scenery

[Rich_Ros]

Hi; I'm brand new here and have no idea how and where to post this, I'd
appreciate a little help.....

I'm a retired engineer and just for the fun of it I've developed several
applications for the model railroaders. All my designs involve micro-
processors. I’ve completed an RR Crossing Flasher that I believe is
superior to anything out there, it’s inexpensive but it’s a ‘stick built’ kit.
I have working models that're still un-tested:
Motorized turnouts with multiple controls and LED indication,
Motorized crossing gates with flashers and track detectors,
and a Bell synthethizer.
Oh yeah, the crossing gate motor can drive any number of gates and the
little guys can raise and lower the boom without damaging anything.....
Remember, they are the future of model railroading!

Static scenery is nice, but flashing lights and moving stuff really
catches the eye.

I've browsed the net and looked at what's being offered at horrible prices
and seem to be antiquated technology. I've traveled around to a few of
the Model RR Swap Meets (?) and it looks like there's two kinds of
responses: "Mine's better because it cost a LOT more!" and "If you'll
do all the work for me and install it in my layout I'll look at it!" I gave
away a dozen of my 'Flasher' kits and only one gave me his critique,
he tore me up on my grammer and spelling but said nothing whatever
about the performance or the adequacy of my intructions. The rest
didn't even say thank you, I won't give any more away......

I'm not doing this to finance my retirement, I just want to cover my costs
and eventually recover my investment. I don't want to spend my time in
'Marketing'. I have someone that's willing to do the packing and shipping
for a fee. Over the past year we've probably shipped out just a little over
a dozen and haven't heard back from anyone. Frankly, I'm about ready to
quit.

It seems as though the Clubbies have an unlimited budget and aren't even
interested in anything but 'authentic' brass replicas for a specific era
and rail line. They can do as they wish, but what about the one's that
have a home layout and after spending hundreds on a locomotive can't
afford to spend another hundred or so to put up a working crossing gate
or motorized turnouts with indicator lights. Imagine paying over $40 for
a flasher circuit for an RR crossing crossbuck that you operate with a
switch. That doesn't include the switch nor the crossbuck!

I'll probably get blocked if I post the URL to my web-page, If you know
a way to show it please let me know. I’d really like to show you what
my designs look like.

I can't give this stuff away, but I desperately need help from some that
are willing to try this stuff out and offer suggestions and criticisms.
They'll be inline for free samples of new products for test and eval.

Any help will be greatly appreciated.

Rich

 

[jwb]

Is there some string we can google on to be sure to get to your page?

 

[Rich_Ros]

Is there some string we can google on to be sure to get to your page?

Hi jwb; Great idea! Just google railroadmicro

I just tried it and most of the hits are mine! That's almost
as much fun as doing a patent search on my name....

Rich

 

[montanan]

I put my 2 cents in too. I am also interested.

 

[rzw0wr]

Looks promising, I love kits.

 

[logandsawman]

I like your ideas but am not sure I understand how they work.

Here is the link: http://railroadmicro.com/

I am into low budget that looks real, but need to understand how it works before I buy. Don't worry, I am not going to steal your ideas.

lasm

 

[Selector]

Rich, our hobby has two main camps, or populations. Those who like to do a lot of work to make things look authentic, and those who just have fun in their own way, often with a hodge-podge of stuff that seems to look alright. I am more-or-less in the latter camp. I'm not a stickler for details, and I don't like sitting for hours detailing kits or scratchbuilding things. It's not to say I don't understand or appreciate all that goes into the research, the design, and then the actual manufacture of just 'bout anything railroading....I really do, it's just that I have no hankering after it. I wanna run stuff.

It would be instresting, if not impossible, to find out what type of person took you up on your offer, and then didn't have the decency to at the very least ship it back with one word...."Meh." But, to retain them and not follow up with their part of the bargain sez to me that you were dealing with freeloaders who hoard and who probably never did actually place them on a working railroad. I can't imagine the character of a person who would go to all the pains of erecting a nicely detailed layout, look for things that solve problems for them, and then not thank the senders of those solutions in some small way. It boggles my mind. In fact, I don't think many such people exist, and that is why I think you may have had freeloaders and lurkers take you up on your offer, people who don't actually ever complete anything of value.

Aahhh...I feel better with that off my chest.

Signals and anything more complicated than simple layout wiring are more involved than many of us want to be. I don't know if you'll ever get much of a market unless these things came with wiring leads attached, they were durable and inexpensive, and eaily hooked up to a layout bus. I don't honestly know, because I have no history or data, but if one modeller in 10 goes to the extent of putting in detection blocks and signals on his/her layout, I would drop dead of a heartattack. I have exactly two signal towers with LEDs, and have yet to install them. They won't be linked to detectors, either...just a resistor.

Finally, I feel badly for stories like yours...and for everything you have done and not found any reward or much interest for that would maintain your own creativity and enthusiasm. Those who criticise grammar really don't have much else going for them, clearly, and the proof would be the return rate of useful feedback...or even that 'Meh." I do wish you luck. Many of us would blow our trains through a signalled crossing at speeds approaching the speed of a commercial jetliner as it rotates on takeoff. Not much realism there.

 

[ianacole]

Rich,

I'd love to help you out ... I worked with a laser cut modeling company after being the first to purchase a newly produced kit that had a few errors in design and instructions. I'm a technical writer by trade, technically adept, and have done a number of instructional guides to include photos and detailed steps. I don't mind paying, and nobody's ever accused me of withholding my opinion

Like Crandell, I'm not interested in a lot of the complexities that CAN come with model railroading, like block detection, signalling, etc., but I do enjoy the idea of working crossings and other visually appealing details that bring interest to a layout. I'm not a master builder, but I'm no slouch either You can see an example of my work here: http://www.wasabiraceteam.com/gallery/TrainPics/trainpage.html.

Again, I'd be happy to help, and if you'd like to chat, give me a PM and I'll send you my phone number.

Ian

 

[tootnkumin]

It is unfortunately true that we now live in a "plug and play" world and as you have tried to get people to try your products out without success in getting the desired feedback or promotion I would suggest a change in tactics (which is why you've decided to try here no doubt, and a good idea too).

I had a look at your website and while it's good to see the items in their packet so you know what you're getting, you need to show it's benefits, i.e. working examples using the products that you say are available and which your kits can power. Maybe do a/some videos and put them on youtube or a photo/vid hosting site so prospects can click on a link. (the one on the club layout would be or would have been a good start)

You say you don't want to get into "Marketing", but even if you put an item up on say, ebay for instance, that in itself involves marketing, or it should (positive, upbeat, chatty but honest). What you've done by posting here is marketing, and to be critical and I'm not being nasty, not good marketing. I liked what you said in answer to a question about semaphores, (that was upbeat) you obviously know your stuff, but it needs to be seen in action.

What you are offering is defenitely aimed at a "Nitche market" within a nitche market, so don't expect it to "Boom". You will have to generate the demand.

 

[Graff]

Very interested! Especially when you get signal/block system ready!

 

[trailrider]

I must agree with Tootnkumin that what you present here and on your website is "marketing". Having visited your website, very briefly, I must say that I would have liked to see your product "in action" (especially the crossing gates, including maybe an illustration of how the multiple gate mechanism works. (I would personally like to see a way to realistically actuate crossing gates where there is no room under the surface of the layout to mount a slow-motion motor!)

One thing you need to assess and show is how your products differ (are better, both in terms of detail, reliability, simplicity and cost) from your competition. I have utilized products from both Azatraks and MTR, for grade crossing flashers and crossing gates. Both manufacturers' products utilize IR detectors. Block occupancy detection can also be done utilizing various components available from them. (With one exception I simply utilize an Azatrax module to indicate where the front and rear of a train is located for clearance of turnout fouling distances on a semi-hidden siding.)

As I am also an independent entrepreneur in a totally different field, I am aware of the problems of designing, developing and marketing of (custom) products. Hopefully, my comments will help you.

Happy New Year!

 

[GenSet]

Those LEDs look pretty large for HO scale or smaller. And it's quite a bit of modeling to go from bare LEDs to a scale-appearing railroad flasher assembly. Your website is critical of manufacturers who offer decent scale-appearing models for a price. It's easy to be critical of others.

Please show us video of your finished models in action so that we may compare with other commercial offerings. A bag of parts isn't much to go from.

 

[Rich_Ros]

I like your ideas but am not sure I understand how they work.

Here is the link: http://railroadmicro.com/

I am into low budget that looks real, but need to understand how it works before I buy. Don't worry, I am not going to steal your ideas.

lasm

Another interested party made a similar inquiry on my web-page and I gave him some performance details.
I don't think anyone is interested in theory or numbers. As to how it works, there's an infrared LED shining
a narrow beam of light into a photo-transistor. The transistor conducts heavily in the presence of strong
infrared light and not at all in darkness. I developed a method of mounting the two red flasher LEDs so
the they could be mounted in even the cheapest of the crossbucks and controlled with only two very small
wires. I seem to be the only one that's able to do that two-wire control. Everything else takes place
inside the micro.

As a train approaches the crossing and blocks one of the IR sensors the flashing will start. As long as
there's something blocking either sensor the flashing will continue. As the train continues through and
blocks the second sensor we know that the train is exiting. The flashing will continue as long as either
sensor is blocked. When the first sensor is no longer blocked and then the second becomes clear it is
assumed that the train has left the area, but flashing will continue for 4 seconds just to be sure. In the
case where a train enters the area and does not pass the opposite sensor and then clears the first sensor
it is assumed that it has either backed out or has stopped with neither sensor blocked. There's no way of
knowing which, the flasher will continue for 30 seconds and then stop.

It is possible for a train to completely enter the crossing zone and stop with neither sensor blocked.
The flasher will quit after 30 seconds. If that's a major problem for you then we should get our heads
together and work out a solution. One thing we could do is use a bigger micro with more pins and add
more sensors. Another solution would be as I suggested to the other inquiry, mount the LED and sensor
pairs so that the beam crosses the tracks at a shallow angle and will be blocked by anything on the
tracks. Yes, the light beams can cross one-another without interfering.

I hope this answers your questions. You're welcome to elaborate further, maybe between us we'll come
up with something we could do to make it better.

Rich

 

[Rich_Ros]

Rich, our hobby has two main camps, or populations. Those who like to do a lot of work to make things look authentic, and those who just have fun in their own way, often with a hodge-podge of stuff that seems to look alright. I am more-or-less in the latter camp. <snip> .

H. Crandell and thanks for commiserating with me. Actually, it gets even worse. In two instances daddy brought his
kids to the show. There was only one or two booths with anything actually happening, other than mine. I'm sure the
little guys were interested in seeing the little train running around the portable layout and all the nice scenery, mountains,
tunnels, bridges, etc. But they'd either soon get bored or daddy would want to move on. The rest of the place was full
of tables that were eye lever to them (the layout too, but that made it much more interesting for them!) All they could
see was a bunch of boxes, they couldn't look down into the boxes..... It was probable pretty boring for them.

When they came to my table it was different. I asked daddy if I could show them my flasher and he said OK. I got down
on one knee and showed him my portable display. I explained that "Here's a railroad crossing and way down here is an
invisible light beam. Down there's another, can you see it?" When he nodded "Yes" I teased him "No, you can't really
see it, it's invisible, right?" Then I showed him how you can block the light beam with your finger and start the flashers.
"Then as your little finger-train passes through and blocks the second beam it'll stop flashing after 4 seconds." When I
said "Now you try it." he was thrilled. When he blocked the second and stopped the flasher he loop up at daddy with a
great big smile. He played with it for a few more minutes and then daddy took his hand and led him away. At another
show the same scene was repeated except daddy had a little boy and a little girl. The boy stepped right up while the
little girl held back but looked on utterly fascinated. Finally I told her that she can do it too. She looked up at daddy
and he gave her the OK. Both of them were so proud of themselves that they were able to make it work without actually
touching it. Then daddy made them move on. Daddy didn't buy a flasher kit.

That's a long story, but guess what. I'll bet daddy went over to talk with his buddies and they all complained that kids
just don't seem to be interested in model trains these days. Can't you just see him shelling out big money for a remote
control locomotive that's too complex for little kids? How about a computer controlled layout and all that expensive
scenery that's too delicate for kids to touch? No small wonder that the only ones left are the old guys!

I put together a kit of parts for a flasher. I don't try to tell you how to build it. I show you how I built mine, but you can
build it any way you want. I show you a wiring diagram (schematic), but you can wire it any way you want. I include all
the parts, but you can use your own parts. I supply the pre-programmed micro, you can't get that anywhere else, but
you can program your own if you'd like. When you're done, YOU built it. It's YOUR design. You can be proud of it. Show
your grand-kids "What I made!" Let the kids play too!

Thanks for letting me get that off my chest too!

As far as the second part, I understand your point about a much bigger market with plug together modules and I know
you're right, but........... The whole idea here is that you build this IN your layout. It's not a module that you can
just set in place and plug it in. You have to come up with clever ideas on how you can arrange and hide the IR LEDs and
the photo-sensors. You have to come up with your own crossbucks and chances are you'll want to mount your own LEDs.
Then you have to route the wiring so that it's hidden, and you really don't want to bore holes and crawl around under
your layout. That's why the wire is so small and why there are so few wires that you have to run, you can do all this
above board and hide the wires under the edge of the roadbed or cover them with ballast. You can hide the little micro
with a piece of shrubbery, you can hide the sensor inside a building so it can peek out a small hole or look out through
a window. It's a custom made flasher, there's just not a whole lot else I can do. Of course I could come down and wire
it up for you, but my labor rate and travel expenses are pretty steep.

Of course, if your layout is anything like what I saw on Montanan's video's I might do it just to see it up close! I
couldn't help but think as I watched it pass through all that marvelous landscape and through all the beautiful model
buildings, etc. wouldn't that be something if lights started flashing and things were happening as the train passes
through. Can't you just imagine how that diner would look with interior lighting? As it is, it's almost like time was
standing still as the train passes through. How about if you were to dim the lighting and the lights came on all over
town? We're not talking about a lot of money, just lots of skill, craftsmanship, know-how, taste, etc.. You guys
have all of that. A little know-how and the right materials and you could really bring your layout to life. I'll help all I
can with the electrical end and the materials.

Hey, I'd better quit before this gets too big for the page.

I'm looking forward to working with you and maybe chatting now and then

Rich (Indiana)

 

[logandsawman]

. As to how it works, there's an infrared LED shining
a narrow beam of light into a photo-transistor... there's something blocking either sensor the flashing will continue. Rich

This is all I needed to know to understand what was going on. And it takes just two small wires and you provide the lifting mechanism for the arm and the flashing lights?

For my setup, if you provided some plastic molded signs with the flashing lights that we could custom paint, and the mechanism for the arms that raised; I could add my own wood and paint that. This would be easy enough.

As far as wiring, is it just the power that comes off the tracks, or would we have a dedicated line that would always provide current at 12 to 18 volts DC to power that.

I hooked my streetlights up to 9v batteries and that is easy because I didn't have to run a lot of extra wire or worry about the lights dimming when the train stopped.

More later, lasm

 

[Rich_Ros]

It is unfortunately true that we now live in a "plug and play" world and as you have tried to get people to try your products out without success in getting the desired feedback or promotion I would suggest a change in tactics (which is why you've decided to try here no doubt, and a good idea too). <<Snip>>

I must agree with Tootnkumin that what you present here and on your website is "marketing". Having visited your website, very briefly, I must say that I would have liked to see your product "in action" (especially the crossing gates, including maybe an illustration of how the multiple gate mechanism works. (I would personally like to see a way to realistically actuate crossing gates where there is no room under the surface of the layout to mount a slow-motion motor!) <<Snip>>

Those LEDs look pretty large for HO scale or smaller. And it's quite a bit of modeling to go from bare LEDs to a scale-appearing railroad flasher assembly. Your website is critical of manufacturers who offer decent scale-appearing models for a price. It's easy to be critical of others.
Please show us video of your finished models in action so that we may compare with other commercial offerings. A bag of parts isn't much to go from.

Hi guys;

Sorry to be so slow in responding, I understand where you're coming from and I agree
with you to an extent. However, I tried to convey that “I’ve completed an RR Crossing
Flasher” and “I have working models that're still un-tested” in the second paragraph
of my initial posting. The “Flasher” is a circuit, not a model. I can’t introduce any
of the other circuits until I can get some reviews of the flasher, but the only interest I
see here is for the crossing gates! What kind of video is needed for a flasher? It
just flashes, nothing else moves. The header on my web-page is a ‘video’ of a real
flasher, mine flashes just like that one. The track detectors are intended to be
hidden and so is the circuit, I’m don’t have an ‘RR Crossing’ to take a picture
of, you have to supply that. If you’re modeling something really big, even a 10
foot crossbuck, let me know and I’ll send you an add-on that’ll handle automotive
type headlights!

I didn’t intend to criticize anyone’s model manufacturers, I know there’s some incredible
looking stuff available, for a price. I will, however, criticize their prices for the
electronics. Leafing through my Digi-Key catalog I find more than 50 pages of LED’s.
How many model railroad people have the time and background to wade through all
those pages to find the size, shapes, current, color, price, etc. that they need? There’s all
kinds of specs that you have to wade through. How many have the background in
electronics to design the circuitry and how many are equipped to program and debug
micro-computers? That’s my job and that’s what I’m offering. You guys are the
modelers, I offer suggestions and try to design something that you can use, but you
bring it to reality on your layout. I do what I can, I shop for parts and figure out a
way that you can build the circuit and wire everything up. I’m not a modeler and I
don’t even have a layout. I just do electronic design and computer stuff.

If you want, I can site some specifics. I just spotted one ‘manufacturer’ that offered
a really low-priced flasher circuit that included a printed circuit board that you
stuffed and four red LEDs for your crossbucks, all for $9.95. Then I see that he
had you wire the pairs of LEDs in parallel…… that’s a no-no. For that price you
flip a switch and make the lights flash, nothing more. No track sensors nor
any means of connecting them, you had to supply power to start flashing and
remove it to stop. Another offers a board that’ll flash several pairs of LEDs for
5 times that price. It’s a complete circuit board and can be interconnect with
track detectors that they also sell, etc. It’s pretty big, you’ll have to mount it
under your layout, and it has screw terminals so you can attach all the wiring.
By itself, it just flashes LEDs (not included).

Do you want a comparison? Look under the ‘Flasher’ tab on my web-page.
There’s 11 ways that my circuit is superior. The schematic is available for
download near the bottom of the page. It’s loaded with pictures. If you have
problems with the docs, let me know and I’ll do what I can to make it clearer.
Do you have some ideas? Let me know and I’ll pass it on for others. (I hope
the ‘others’ will pass their ideas on to share them with you.) Doesn’t that
constitute item #12 on the list?

I have a locomotive and 6 feet of track on an 8 foot 1x4. I’ll be mounting
the embedded reflective type IR sensors and a pair of crossbucks and see if
I can get a video of the flashing lights for you sometime soon.

By the way, the reflective IR sensor really looks good. The sensor that I’m using
measures .22 x .4 in. and is just over .5 in. in height. I carved out a piece of
roadbed between the ties, lifted the track and finished carving with a knife
to fit the sensor. I routed out a little in the table to make room for the wires
and then routed the wiring under the roadbed. They’re almost invisible, they
sit beween and just below the ties. ( I just looked at mine and had a hard
time spotting it. I had to look for my pencil mark.)
So far they look good with my automatic compensation technique. I’ve been
testing them on my 6-foot track. They pick up my loco and 2 freight cars
unconditionally, even sensing the couplings. To the extend that the cars
cast a shadow, even a 100W incandescent bulb a foot above won’t interfere
except when it has to detect the couplers. Raising the light to three feet is
marginal, the signal will flicker. Beyond four feet or at an angle down the
track the signal is solid. Fluorescent or LED lighting should be no problem
at all.
We could rig up a ‘deluxe’ system with three sensors on either side of a
crossing and then think up superior logic to measure velocity, direction,
etc to know what’s happening and thereby do a superior job of controlling
lights, gates, etc. The cost would be just a couple dollars more than a
basic two-sensor system.

First, we need to have a few responses to the flasher circuit. Until that becomes
a viable product I’m unwilling to proceed. I’ve already spent too much time
and money trying to help the modelers. I enjoy doing the design work, but
I need help from people like you to evaluate the product. If I get at least a
handful of people to evaluate the flasher circuit and make whatever changes
are needed I can submit it to the magazines and see if they’d do an article.

Rich

 

[GenSet]

So basically you are offering a bag of parts to build an untested (your words) circuit that doesn't include the right LEDs for modelers in HO or smaller scales. You don't offer crossbucks or crossing signals or instructions for making them. But you want consumers to buy your product to help you test them and to help fund your future business.

Good luck with that. Those of us who might be able to do all the engineering to build a satisfactory crossing signal and provide useful testing feedback can already source the parts ourselves and use one of the many free flasher circuits available on the Internet ... and aren't motivated to help you build your business. The majority of modelers might build a crossing signal kit if you included the actual HO model components and LEDs appropriate for the scale. But they will be disappointed if they buy your "kit" and find that it's just a bag of electronic parts with nothing included to build the crossing signal itself.

Not to mention that knowledgeable modelers might buy one of your kits to get the schematic and then source the rest of the parts themselves to build many copies for all the signals they need. I'm not sure that your business model is viable, but that is your call.

 

[Rich_Ros]

So basically you are offering a bag of parts to build an untested (your words) circuit that doesn't include the right LEDs for modelers in HO or smaller scales. You don't offer crossbucks or crossing signals or instructions for making them. But you want consumers to buy your product to help you test them and to help fund your future business. <<Snip>>

Hi Genset;

Let's take this all in order.....

"Untested". I've tested them myself quite thoroughly and my partner in this venture has had them in his
layout for some time now. I've heard back informally that the dozen that I gave out all worked, but none
gave me any kind of review.
I don't make crossbucks. I have some from Walthers that are under a buck apiece. If you poke out their
little red lens then my 3mm LED's are a perfect fit. If that doesn't meet DOT specs then I'm sorry. Tell
Walthers and see what they say. Myself, I don't think I'd spend a dollar more to get one that's just a little
smaller.
Did you read what's on my web-page? Did you download and look at the 'RR-Crossing-Details.doc' file?
The instructions are there for you to view, along with detailed suggestions for making the circuit and retrofitting
the Walthers crossbucks with LEDs and for making the circuit. I've had only one review of the docs and that
only corrected the grammar. I'm looking for a few people that would help by evaluating the docs as well as the
circuit. If the instructions aren't clear then I'll do whatever is needed to do it right.
You're welcome to buy your own components and build your own circuit. Feel free to copy my design. If you
think that the 1970's technology that's available free is satisfactory then go for it. That's your call. You seem
to have no idea what my circuit is all about. I'm sorry for you.

Both of your responses are negative without foundation. I'm not much interested in your business and I don't
believe you speak for the majority of the modelers. I'm much more interested in helping those who would like
this type of thing for their layout without breaking their budget. I'm not here to create a business, although I
would like to recover my investment. There's some nice people here and I'm looking forward to working with
them.

Rich

 

[tootnkumin]

Rich, if you're wondering why you're not getting the sort of response to your thread you desire and your proposals aren't being accepted with enthusiasm, you might like to read this thread, also on here, which may give you a clue.
http://www.modelrailroadforums.com/forum/showthread.php?33141-RailFlyer

 

[Rich_Ros]

Rich, if you're wondering why you're not getting the sort of response to your thread you desire and your proposals aren't being accepted with enthusiasm, you might like to read this thread, also on here, which may give you a clue.
http://www.modelrailroadforums.com/forum/showthread.php?33141-RailFlyer

Hi, and thanks for your honestly. That goes a long way towards explaining the hostility from another poster, and
possibly why my posts don't seem to get approved now. With this kind of policy nothing new has a chance.

Rich