I've had some trouble with the new stuff that supports the higher functions. The DCS50 was great, with no trouble. I got a DCS 51 and things went downhill fast from there. My old UT4 works great, but my new DT402 has given me problems.
Do you use DCC?
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I've had some trouble with the new stuff that supports the higher functions. The DCS50 was great, with no trouble. I got a DCS 51 and things went downhill fast from there. My old UT4 works great, but my new DT402 has given me problems.
False. DCC works fine on handlaid track.
I have a friend in another state that had to do quite a bit of electrical work on his layout when he changed over to DCC because of problems. The problems weren't too serious, but required a lot of trouble shooting and a lot of time. All of his layout was hand laid. After a bit of time and effort, he finally got it working properly.
Maybe he didn't wire it properly in the first place. Two of my friends have had very easy conversions to DCC with handlaid track, but they had the feeders and gaps correct for multicab DC to begin with.
But at least your friend has it right now. My friends with handlaid track love DCC and would never go back to DC.
So your blanket statement of "DCC doesn't work on handlaid track" is another myth busted. You are welcome.
I have to agree with this. If the track is first wired using DC wiring rules, there is absolutely no problem with a conversion to DCC. Except for what will be hidden track, and staging yards, all of my track is handlaid. I wired it as I built it, using DC rules. I've cut no additional gaps other than what was called for in the rules.
So far the only problem I've had with DCC is when a 100' pine tree in my backyard got hit by lightning several years ago and fried my DCC system & the surge protector it was on, along with my neighbors TV, nothing else has occurred.
All I know is that my friend did have some problems in his conversion to DCC. I wasn't present when he made the change over, but he did have problems in some rather complicated trackwork. After many hours of troubleshooting, he did resolve the problem by adding a few gaps. Hand laying track leave so many opportunities to build trackage that could never be done with store bought turnouts but can be a headache when it comes to electrical work. I was shown the area where he had the problems and I can understand why he could have had a problem. He told me tha during the troubleshooting, shorts only occurred when a certain number of switches were in a certain position. I wish I had a picture of this particular birdsnest of track, but it drove him crazy for about a week until he got it figured out. These shorts did not occurr whe he was operating DC and appeared when he changed over. The track work is a masterpiece of track laying where the problem was finally found.
I'm still not interested in changing over. Still not interested in spending over $1000 and taking the time to convert numerous locomotives.
In a situation like this, no you don't. I believe that when you're a lone operator, and always will be on that layout, the expense of DCC is uncalled for. The biggest advantage with DCC is, IMHO, ease of wiring for multiple operators. By that I mean more than 2 operators at a time.
Using DPDT switches to wire a DC layout for 2 operators, is relatively easy and inexpensive. Trying to wire it for more than 2 can get you into the realm of complicated multi-tiered rotary switches, which aren't cheap!
I have done exactly what you said for 2 operators. I have two boxes of DPDT switches stashed away. I operate 2 walk around throttles, but almost never use more than one at at time except possibly when the grandkids are over or an occassional visitor. Works like a charm for me.
Power routing turnouts and gap placement are just about always the problem here! (Carey...Larry Deagon's layout...Arrrggghhhhhh!!!!)
That wasn't the real problem with Deagon's layout Alan. The real problem was everytime he added a new control system to the layout, instead of removing the older system's wiring, he would just add the new system on top. Trouble is he never removed anything from the older wiring scheme. He never needed to add anything above the regular DC wiring, but he would, jumpers where they were not needed, removing gaps where they were needed, etc. When the club removed the old wiring this past year and replaced it with proper wiring, Larry S. told me that there were signs of 7 complete wiring systems on the layout, all different and all not needed above the old DC system. If when he would add a new control system, he would just wire it in where one of the old DC cabs were, there wouldn't have been a problem. Deagon wouldn't do that. He would read the instructions for the new system, wire in some changes, but not remove the older system, thus causing all the problems we eventually were having on that layout, like the phantom shorts, the welding of complete trains to the rail, plastic diesel bodies melting onto chassis, etc.
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I've had some trouble with the new stuff that supports the higher functions. The DCS50 was great, with no trouble. I got a DCS 51 and things went downhill fast from there. My old UT4 works great, but my new DT402 has given me problems.
False. DCC works fine on handlaid track.
montanan
Whiskey Merchant
I have a friend in another state that had to do quite a bit of electrical work on his layout when he changed over to DCC because of problems. The problems weren't too serious, but required a lot of trouble shooting and a lot of time. All of his layout was hand laid. After a bit of time and effort, he finally got it working properly.
Maybe he didn't wire it properly in the first place. Two of my friends have had very easy conversions to DCC with handlaid track, but they had the feeders and gaps correct for multicab DC to begin with.
But at least your friend has it right now. My friends with handlaid track love DCC and would never go back to DC.
So your blanket statement of "DCC doesn't work on handlaid track" is another myth busted. You are welcome.
montanan
Whiskey Merchant
It could just have been the way it was first wired for DC. The layout had been in operation for over 20 years and operated flawlessly. I had operated on it numerous times. It was a bit of a problem troubleshooting the problem, but he did say he had to add some gaps in a few places and finally got everything operating properly after using numerous choice words and now everything is fine.
For me it's the expense and the time as I wouldn't get a starteR system, but would get something that wouldn't need upgrading some time down the road, plus the time and money to install decoders a numerous locomotives. Most of my locomotives are older locos and some would require a lot of work as there is really no place to install decoders without having to cut out quite a lot of the weight for installation. I have had out of state friends visit and to do a conversion properly, they estimated a cost of well over $1,000 to get everything up and running.
Being that I am a lone operator, DCC is not a necessity.
For me it's the expense and the time as I wouldn't get a starteR system, but would get something that wouldn't need upgrading some time down the road, plus the time and money to install decoders a numerous locomotives. Most of my locomotives are older locos and some would require a lot of work as there is really no place to install decoders without having to cut out quite a lot of the weight for installation. I have had out of state friends visit and to do a conversion properly, they estimated a cost of well over $1,000 to get everything up and running.
Being that I am a lone operator, DCC is not a necessity.
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WigWag Workshop
Active Member
I finally was able to purchase a Digitrax DCC starter set.
Cjcrescent
Master Mechanic
I have to agree with this. If the track is first wired using DC wiring rules, there is absolutely no problem with a conversion to DCC. Except for what will be hidden track, and staging yards, all of my track is handlaid. I wired it as I built it, using DC rules. I've cut no additional gaps other than what was called for in the rules.
So far the only problem I've had with DCC is when a 100' pine tree in my backyard got hit by lightning several years ago and fried my DCC system & the surge protector it was on, along with my neighbors TV, nothing else has occurred.
montanan
Whiskey Merchant
All I know is that my friend did have some problems in his conversion to DCC. I wasn't present when he made the change over, but he did have problems in some rather complicated trackwork. After many hours of troubleshooting, he did resolve the problem by adding a few gaps. Hand laying track leave so many opportunities to build trackage that could never be done with store bought turnouts but can be a headache when it comes to electrical work. I was shown the area where he had the problems and I can understand why he could have had a problem. He told me tha during the troubleshooting, shorts only occurred when a certain number of switches were in a certain position. I wish I had a picture of this particular birdsnest of track, but it drove him crazy for about a week until he got it figured out. These shorts did not occurr whe he was operating DC and appeared when he changed over. The track work is a masterpiece of track laying where the problem was finally found.
I'm still not interested in changing over. Still not interested in spending over $1000 and taking the time to convert numerous locomotives.
Burlington Bob
Well-Known Member
I am starting over after over 20 years away from the hobby. When I last had an operating layout, DCC was something still on the horizon for most modelers. Then, I had to make sure that all blocks were set properly for trains to run smoothly. Things could get a little hectic on occasion and truly realistic operation was just not possible. As they say, I was busy running my track.
This time I decided that I was going to go with DCC after reading as much as I could about it. I went with a Zephyr Extra and installed a decoder in the first loco I bought. WOW! I couldn't believe the improvement in performance that DCC could make, not to mention the ease of operating more than one train on the same track.
Needless to say, currently I only have a small temporary layout to play on. I am planning a much bigger layout this time due to the ease of DCC operation and wiring. As I buy a new loco a decoder is purchased at the same time. I install them whenever I have the time and/or interest. So far, there have not been any "trick" installation skills required for any of them. I just pay attention to what I am doing and so far I have been 100% successful.
Montanan, I understand your reluctance to convert to DCC, as it will require an investment in time, money and education as you learn the new ways of operating that will be available to you.
However, the conversion could be made rather slowly over time. If you are a lone wolf, you would not need a top of the line system to get the most out of your trains. I have had eight locos operating at the same time, some consisted and a couple of others running separately. Granted, this is N scale with new locos that have a small amp draw but I would think something similar could be achieved with good quality HO equipment. I'm not exhorting you to make the switch, I just don't want you to possibly miss out on a whole new world of operations that could be available with DCC. If you have had an opportunity to operate on a DCC layout you will understand what I mean. Good luck with any choice you make and I respect your decision to "just say no".
This time I decided that I was going to go with DCC after reading as much as I could about it. I went with a Zephyr Extra and installed a decoder in the first loco I bought. WOW! I couldn't believe the improvement in performance that DCC could make, not to mention the ease of operating more than one train on the same track.
Needless to say, currently I only have a small temporary layout to play on. I am planning a much bigger layout this time due to the ease of DCC operation and wiring. As I buy a new loco a decoder is purchased at the same time. I install them whenever I have the time and/or interest. So far, there have not been any "trick" installation skills required for any of them. I just pay attention to what I am doing and so far I have been 100% successful.
Montanan, I understand your reluctance to convert to DCC, as it will require an investment in time, money and education as you learn the new ways of operating that will be available to you.
However, the conversion could be made rather slowly over time. If you are a lone wolf, you would not need a top of the line system to get the most out of your trains. I have had eight locos operating at the same time, some consisted and a couple of others running separately. Granted, this is N scale with new locos that have a small amp draw but I would think something similar could be achieved with good quality HO equipment. I'm not exhorting you to make the switch, I just don't want you to possibly miss out on a whole new world of operations that could be available with DCC. If you have had an opportunity to operate on a DCC layout you will understand what I mean. Good luck with any choice you make and I respect your decision to "just say no".
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montanan
Whiskey Merchant
I am fortunate enough to have the time to travel and while traveling visit numerous model railroading friends. Many do have DCC equipped model railroads. When traveling I do bring a brass Z-5 Yellowstone that I have installed DCC and sound in. I call it my traveling locomotive.
With multiple operators, DCC is definitely the way to go. I have enjoyed many operating sessions using DCC.
I am a lone operator. My layout is built as a switching layout, with an occasional through train. The main line is not particularly long as the track only goes through any scene only one time. Instead having the track cross the layout numerous times, I chose to use the real estate to try to model detailed towns allowing for numerous industries to switch on this point to point layout.
For my purposes I really don't see the need for DCC as when you're busy switching, you don't really have the time (or attention span for an old guy) to try to run a second or third train when operating by yourself.
With multiple operators, DCC is definitely the way to go. I have enjoyed many operating sessions using DCC.
I am a lone operator. My layout is built as a switching layout, with an occasional through train. The main line is not particularly long as the track only goes through any scene only one time. Instead having the track cross the layout numerous times, I chose to use the real estate to try to model detailed towns allowing for numerous industries to switch on this point to point layout.
For my purposes I really don't see the need for DCC as when you're busy switching, you don't really have the time (or attention span for an old guy) to try to run a second or third train when operating by yourself.
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Cjcrescent
Master Mechanic
In a situation like this, no you don't. I believe that when you're a lone operator, and always will be on that layout, the expense of DCC is uncalled for. The biggest advantage with DCC is, IMHO, ease of wiring for multiple operators. By that I mean more than 2 operators at a time.
Using DPDT switches to wire a DC layout for 2 operators, is relatively easy and inexpensive. Trying to wire it for more than 2 can get you into the realm of complicated multi-tiered rotary switches, which aren't cheap!
montanan
Whiskey Merchant
I have done exactly what you said for 2 operators. I have two boxes of DPDT switches stashed away. I operate 2 walk around throttles, but almost never use more than one at at time except possibly when the grandkids are over or an occassional visitor. Works like a charm for me.
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J
james-trainmaster
Guest
I run the old mrc dcc system with the turn dial on the control .seems to handle the 7 engines very well.1 analog and 6 dcc
Power routing turnouts and gap placement are just about always the problem here! (Carey...Larry Deagon's layout...Arrrggghhhhhh!!!!)
Cjcrescent
Master Mechanic
That wasn't the real problem with Deagon's layout Alan. The real problem was everytime he added a new control system to the layout, instead of removing the older system's wiring, he would just add the new system on top. Trouble is he never removed anything from the older wiring scheme. He never needed to add anything above the regular DC wiring, but he would, jumpers where they were not needed, removing gaps where they were needed, etc. When the club removed the old wiring this past year and replaced it with proper wiring, Larry S. told me that there were signs of 7 complete wiring systems on the layout, all different and all not needed above the old DC system. If when he would add a new control system, he would just wire it in where one of the old DC cabs were, there wouldn't have been a problem. Deagon wouldn't do that. He would read the instructions for the new system, wire in some changes, but not remove the older system, thus causing all the problems we eventually were having on that layout, like the phantom shorts, the welding of complete trains to the rail, plastic diesel bodies melting onto chassis, etc.
The Captain mentioned four wiring systems, though I do remember weird gap placements and the night an entire train got welded to the rails during an operating session. There were also those weird shutdowns nobody could ever figure out. I'm glad that layout is getting some TLC
blue92rs
Cheaper than therapy!
I built several medium sized layouts for myself and used DC and block wiring on all of them. After becoming tired of poor slow speed control of power packs, I tried my hand at building a DC handheld with a small pulse. Better but still not what I wanted, I purchased a DC pulsed throttle with memory for walk around ability. It was great until it went south on me. Finally I decided to go DCC. I chose the NCE Powercab which I found new on ebay for $148, shipped! Sound decoders for my four diesel locomotives have been $50 - $60 apiece. I will be upgrading the speakers eventually. I am so happy with the NCE I will never go back! I had been holding out all this time because of cost... Then I sat back and did a little math. I had spent more on DC throttles, project boxes, switches, electronic parts, power supplies and wiring than a DCC starter set and three sound decoders!!!
Bruette
Well-Known Member
I am a novice HO railroader and not really qualified to put in my 2 cents with all these experienced experts but it has never stopped me before so here it is.
I am primarily an O-gauge guy, but I have had HO Christmas trains since 1974 and they are great, but now I am building a 4X8 HO layout for my grandsons and I to play with and we are going with DCC because it is just so easy to run 3 separate trains! The cost when compared to Lionel's Legacy system is cheap.
On my O gauge layout I have invested $700 in a Lionel ZW-L transformer and so far I have 1 TMCC Locomotive $400 and 1 Legacy Locomotive $450 and I still need the Legacy control System $340 and another legacy locomotive $450+ for me and my 2 grandsons. Because O-gauge Lionel locomotives can run so fast that they fly off the layout with conventional power(I know from experience) I can't let one of my grandsons use it. He thinks the throttles should always be wide open.
I bought an NCE DCC Twin and Pro Cab $225 and 3 DCC locomotives $55-$65 each and we are ready to go as soon as I finish the HO layout. A great value if you ask me and if my grandsons run a locomotive off the HO layout I wont be out $450 or more.
Now I am upgrading all my DC locomotives and having a ball doing it! The cost to add DCC to a DC locomotive is about $25 or a bit more depending on the decoder. To add TMCC to a O gauge conventional Lionel is $100 or so, Legacy is not yet available as an upgrade.
I will complete my Lionel legacy system, but not until I have my HO layout up and running.
In the mean time my grandsons are playing with a Lionel O gauge conventional powered figure 8 floor layout
I am primarily an O-gauge guy, but I have had HO Christmas trains since 1974 and they are great, but now I am building a 4X8 HO layout for my grandsons and I to play with and we are going with DCC because it is just so easy to run 3 separate trains! The cost when compared to Lionel's Legacy system is cheap.
On my O gauge layout I have invested $700 in a Lionel ZW-L transformer and so far I have 1 TMCC Locomotive $400 and 1 Legacy Locomotive $450 and I still need the Legacy control System $340 and another legacy locomotive $450+ for me and my 2 grandsons. Because O-gauge Lionel locomotives can run so fast that they fly off the layout with conventional power(I know from experience) I can't let one of my grandsons use it. He thinks the throttles should always be wide open.
I bought an NCE DCC Twin and Pro Cab $225 and 3 DCC locomotives $55-$65 each and we are ready to go as soon as I finish the HO layout. A great value if you ask me and if my grandsons run a locomotive off the HO layout I wont be out $450 or more.
Now I am upgrading all my DC locomotives and having a ball doing it! The cost to add DCC to a DC locomotive is about $25 or a bit more depending on the decoder. To add TMCC to a O gauge conventional Lionel is $100 or so, Legacy is not yet available as an upgrade.
I will complete my Lionel legacy system, but not until I have my HO layout up and running.
In the mean time my grandsons are playing with a Lionel O gauge conventional powered figure 8 floor layout
Bruette
Well-Known Member
Thank you very much Karl, I did not know that!
I bought the NCE stuff, hooked it up to my HO test track I use to test the locomotives I rebuild It was very cool to see 3 locomotives running around the track all at different speeds! Then I put it back in the box until I complete my HO layout.
I just have cheap entry level Bachmann DCC Diesels and I don't think they can go fast enough to jump the rails. I like DCC so much that I will get some better ones with sound even in the future. I would bet I will need your advice on those dual motor with flywheels locomotives! Will be great to control my grandsons speed then! My youngest grandson is fine, he likes to watch them lug about, stop and start, but my oldest grandson is another story.
I bought the NCE stuff, hooked it up to my HO test track I use to test the locomotives I rebuild It was very cool to see 3 locomotives running around the track all at different speeds! Then I put it back in the box until I complete my HO layout.
I just have cheap entry level Bachmann DCC Diesels and I don't think they can go fast enough to jump the rails. I like DCC so much that I will get some better ones with sound even in the future. I would bet I will need your advice on those dual motor with flywheels locomotives! Will be great to control my grandsons speed then! My youngest grandson is fine, he likes to watch them lug about, stop and start, but my oldest grandson is another story.
Louis,
Not to mention also that with DCC, you can limit the voltage going to the locomotive's motor through the decoder. So try as they might, the grandsons can't make them fly off the track!!
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