dead track
- Thread starter Goat
- Start date
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I have to agree with you fcwilt. I don't see the great benefits that this is supposed to provide. I have several expensive brass locomotives, and until the problems with battery overheating, possible exploding, removal to charge etc. I can do without all that.
The main problem is still battery life. The battery technology, IMHO, is still years behind the rest of the technology. When or if the batteries catch up to the rest of the technology, I may take a closer look. But for now, I'm not interested.
I understand the battery power will work for some people. But as soon as you add current sensing occupancy detection the majority of the track wiring is going to be that same as for DCC.
And when you add in turnout motors, signals, uncouplers, lighting the wiring you might save with batter power is not that great.
I think it is grand that there are many ways to run trains on a layout but battery power holds no interest for me. Why fix something that is not broken?
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Well, it's not dead track, but at one of my clubs (oddly enough the foot dragger as far as DCC was concerned) has got RC on the DCC section, and I've been able to use my Pro-Cab-R on it, 'tis great, you're never out of contact with your train, unlike the other club (dedicated DCC layout) which is yet to advance past the tethered cabs, where it's easy to forget to reconnect while moving around.
Your question, of course, is about receivers within each loco with battery/capacitor power, and yes, it sounds exciting to have that extra freedom from the reliance on track power, but it seems there is still some way to go technically.
Your question, of course, is about receivers within each loco with battery/capacitor power, and yes, it sounds exciting to have that extra freedom from the reliance on track power, but it seems there is still some way to go technically.
gregc
Apprentice Modeler
doesn't this really require 3 things: battery/cap (as already mentioned), receiver electronics in addition to decoder and transmitter electronics in addition to controller/throttle
it seems a expensive (both space and $$) solution if the problem is dead (unreliable) track in a few spots of a layout.
it seems a expensive (both space and $$) solution if the problem is dead (unreliable) track in a few spots of a layout.
What Goat is talking about is having no power applied to the track and the power supplied from rechargeable caps or batteries in the locos and radio control. I know at the outdoor layout at one of my clubs this is already in use in the larger scales, O and larger, but there may be some way to go before it fully challenges track power in HO and smaller. Length of running time between charges which load would impact on as to the spacing between recharging stations. Maybe someone could come up with a method like the prototype steam engines used (troughs between the rails) to replenish water, but that would be like going back to 3 rail track wouldn't it.
gregc
Apprentice Modeler
what if a station siding tracks are powered and the loco must stop to recharge (how quickly?) just as the prototype had to stop for water?
Dead Rail
There is a Yahoo Group Forum called "Dead Rail Society": https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/DeadRailSociety/
One big advantage of dead rail is with locos powered by batteries/capacitors there no more track wiring required. It can also be used w/ DCC.
There's a video on the internet showing a steam train derailing completely but keeps running til it finds another track & still keeps on running!
Rail Line Forums also has a Dead Rail section: http://www.railroad-line.com/forum/forum.asp?FORUM_ID=98.
As Dead Rail becomes more popular can see it showing up on more MR forums as a separate section. For Ho scale, NWSL Stanton Drives cab be used & the space used by motors & gears etc can be used for batteries.
There is a Yahoo Group Forum called "Dead Rail Society": https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/DeadRailSociety/
One big advantage of dead rail is with locos powered by batteries/capacitors there no more track wiring required. It can also be used w/ DCC.
There's a video on the internet showing a steam train derailing completely but keeps running til it finds another track & still keeps on running!
Rail Line Forums also has a Dead Rail section: http://www.railroad-line.com/forum/forum.asp?FORUM_ID=98.
As Dead Rail becomes more popular can see it showing up on more MR forums as a separate section. For Ho scale, NWSL Stanton Drives cab be used & the space used by motors & gears etc can be used for batteries.
Often the idea is advanced that with battery power you no longer need track wiring. That is not always true.
If you need block occupancy detection you are still going to need something to provide that feature. IR and magnetic detectors can be use in some cases but they are "point" detectors in that they only tell you that something is activating the sensor at the sensor location. Current sensing occupancy detectors naturally will report when anything is drawing current anywhere in the block.
Regardless of the type there is significant wiring involved.
If you want remote turnout control you are going to have yet more wiring.
If you want signals you are going to have a good deal of wiring.
And so forth.
On my layout the wiring to provide DCC power to the track is a small part of the overall wiring.
The "savings" in wiring would in no way be a factor for me in using battery power.
If you need block occupancy detection you are still going to need something to provide that feature. IR and magnetic detectors can be use in some cases but they are "point" detectors in that they only tell you that something is activating the sensor at the sensor location. Current sensing occupancy detectors naturally will report when anything is drawing current anywhere in the block.
Regardless of the type there is significant wiring involved.
If you want remote turnout control you are going to have yet more wiring.
If you want signals you are going to have a good deal of wiring.
And so forth.
On my layout the wiring to provide DCC power to the track is a small part of the overall wiring.
The "savings" in wiring would in no way be a factor for me in using battery power.
Had a read of all those systems, unfortunately they all appear to advise plug-in charging, or battery removal/swapping and the probability of tender or accompanying car for the batteries, which will require handling or removal of the loco/s from the track. The use of existing DCC decoders without the need for a base station is a plus (for those who haven't already bought one). Internal space requirements when it comes to hood type diesels looks to be a difficulty (dummy loco spoken about). So still quite a way to go yet before this will become mainstream and fully user friendly. Certainly advantages in no reverse loop or frog wiring needed, but disadvantages in the case of derailments where the loco/s will keep going until the operator realises it's happened. (no instant short circuit shutdown). Wiring will still have to be installed to operate turnout motors. signals, occupancy detectors etc.
A much better solution would be to leave the track powered, for charging onboard batteries and occupancy detection only, and have everything related to running a locomotive in the locomotive itself. Dirty rails would only become a problem if they were so dirty the batteries could not be charged.
There doesn't seem to be a lot of favour from the makers of these systems for recharging from the track, which from the modeller's point of view would be the best and most prototypical in operation to have the recharging stations at refuelling depots, or at actual station/switching stops. One even mentioned putting the batteries in a cup, because of an explosion risk while recharging. Dun'no if I fancy an exploding cup either 
. Or a loco. Powered rails becoming dirty quickly is usually associated with the effect of the transfer of current between track and wheels as much as a build up of dust on them. Any build-up is going to cause rough running though, so cleaning track is still likely to be a chore, but maybe not so often and make a track cleaning car's job easier.
One maker said their system worked well with Tsunami decoders, but I wonder what the extra current draw of a sound decoder (5-7V to get the sound going) on the batteries charge life would be.
. Or a loco. Powered rails becoming dirty quickly is usually associated with the effect of the transfer of current between track and wheels as much as a build up of dust on them. Any build-up is going to cause rough running though, so cleaning track is still likely to be a chore, but maybe not so often and make a track cleaning car's job easier.One maker said their system worked well with Tsunami decoders, but I wonder what the extra current draw of a sound decoder (5-7V to get the sound going) on the batteries charge life would be.
Goat,
Your issue with dead track sounds a lot like one of those ever expanding QZ's - QUIET ZONES !! - Lol. that we Bi.. / Complain about the noise from the Diesel horns..
My posts ...
1- QZ's .... http://www.modelrailroadforums.com/forum/showthread.php?35123-QZ-s&highlight=
2- More on QZ's .... http://www.modelrailroadforums.com/forum/showthread.php?35706-More-on-QZ-s
BCK RR
Your issue with dead track sounds a lot like one of those ever expanding QZ's - QUIET ZONES !! - Lol. that we Bi.. / Complain about the noise from the Diesel horns..
My posts ...
1- QZ's .... http://www.modelrailroadforums.com/forum/showthread.php?35123-QZ-s&highlight=
2- More on QZ's .... http://www.modelrailroadforums.com/forum/showthread.php?35706-More-on-QZ-s
BCK RR
Being of the K.I.S.S. persuasion don't need much less want all those complicated things anyway. Have thought about charging loco batteries as don't want to be constantly handling them either. Going to find a way to "park" them for charging. Maybe by running them into some kind of plug to do that.
I have several good rail cleaning cars and simply have no problem with dirty track. Now the layout is in a finished, conditioned basement and all the HVAC units have HEPA filters but I don't imagine that is uncommon.
To me this is a solution in search of a problem, at least when it comes to indoor N and HO scale layouts.
Battery power makes sense in, say, a RC plane or helicopter - you can't very well run wires to such a device. But when you have metal rails that can carry power I really don't see the "killer" benefit of battery power.
To me this is a solution in search of a problem, at least when it comes to indoor N and HO scale layouts.
Battery power makes sense in, say, a RC plane or helicopter - you can't very well run wires to such a device. But when you have metal rails that can carry power I really don't see the "killer" benefit of battery power.
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Cjcrescent
Master Mechanic
I have to agree with you fcwilt. I don't see the great benefits that this is supposed to provide. I have several expensive brass locomotives, and until the problems with battery overheating, possible exploding, removal to charge etc. I can do without all that.
The main problem is still battery life. The battery technology, IMHO, is still years behind the rest of the technology. When or if the batteries catch up to the rest of the technology, I may take a closer look. But for now, I'm not interested.
Have learned alot from reading the questions & replies on the Dead Rail Society Yahoo Group Forum. All the concerns you guys have brought up have been answered there many times over. Having done enough wiring on other layouts & mine really do not want to go thru all that grief ever again!
I understand the battery power will work for some people. But as soon as you add current sensing occupancy detection the majority of the track wiring is going to be that same as for DCC.
And when you add in turnout motors, signals, uncouplers, lighting the wiring you might save with batter power is not that great.
I think it is grand that there are many ways to run trains on a layout but battery power holds no interest for me. Why fix something that is not broken?
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