DC operators

[cuyama]

the technology called packet switching,

Yes, the control data is organized into packets. There is not the complexity in routing of typical data packets that one would find in an X.25, Frame Relay, MPLS, or TCP/IP network. As others noted, the spec is on-line.

Anyway, I agree with someone who said he likes to listen to the normal DC setup to hear if there are any derailed wheels/trucks, etc..

DCC doesn't necessarily mean sound, just as DC doesn't necessarily mean non-sound. Either control scheme may be used with sound-equipped locomotives -- there is just typically more control with DCC.

Partly because I'm just getting started in model trains, and being interested in layout construction, switches, simple switch control, landscaping, scenery, trestle building, hand made structures, roadways/vehicles, and the diorama aspect, there is just so much more that seems to take priority over bells, whistles, and engine noises....for the for-see-able future.

DCC isn't only for "bells and whistles". Controlling two or more locomotives on a single track requires either lots of blocks (each with gaps and feeders and electrical switches) with DC, or it requires DCC.

Most folks who use DCC today don't use it to control the track switches. And probably most don't have sound. Rather, most chose DCC to make wiring for multiple engines running at once to be simpler.

There are a lot of misconceptions about DCC. As I said before: DC is fine, DCC is fine. But it's always good to operate on facts rather than hearsay.

 

[cuyama]

to do the same job 2 $5, 20 minute-to-install toggle switches do.

You have a unique situation and it seems your dead spurs do what you want. But strictly speaking, those two toggle switches are not doing the same thing DCC would do.

You may only operate only one locomotive at a time with a dead spur(s) holding the other(s). With DCC, any or all could operate simultaneously anywhere without flipping switches.

If you were starting from scratch and had no or a few locomotives, the cost and time difference could be minimal. More and more locomotives are offered with dual-mode DC/DCC decoders from the factory, so DCC is "free". For others, the cost of adding DCC is not so bad -- around $20 for a fleet decoder that plugs into a provided socket in the locomotive.

DC can work well, DCC can work well. I just think it's always important to make apples-to-apples comparisons and use real-life current information on costs and complexity.

 

[railfan]

Yes, the control data is organized into packets.

DCC doesn't necessarily mean sound, just as DC doesn't necessarily mean non-sound.

DCC isn't only for "bells and whistles". Most folks who use DCC today don't use it to control the track switches. And probably most don't have sound. Rather, most chose DCC to make wiring for multiple engines running at once to be simpler.

Thanks for the info and you make good points. It's true bells and whistles was an over-simplification. Now that you mention it the simpler wiring for multiple engines really makes sense. Having not studied much on routing power to the rails through turnouts and what issues are involved....wondering if DCC makes that easier too? (which we may have to move to a different topic/thread but just thinking/rambling outloud....)

Mike

 

[railfan]

Railfan;

For info on the DCC Standards and Recommended Practices, might I suggest that you go here:

http://www.nmra.org/standards/DCC/standards_rps/DCCStds.html

This will have all the details. Just click on the PDF symbols, to open what you interested in. You must of course have Adobe Reader.

Thanks Carey, I looked at the PDF's. That definitely answered the question.

And I just noticed that H44/Mark asked a couple questions at the beginning of this topic so.........my layout fills the perimeter of a 36" x 80" HC door. I have an MRC tech4 280 dual throttle unit (generously donated by another MRRF member), also an MRC tech2 1500, and an MRC tech2 2500 is my most powerful controller which really makes my N scale trains rocket around the track.

Mike

 

[Doughless]

You have a unique situation and it seems your dead spurs do what you want. But strictly speaking, those two toggle switches are not doing the same thing DCC would do.

You may only operate only one locomotive at a time with a dead spur(s) holding the other(s). With DCC, any or all could operate simultaneously anywhere without flipping switches.

If you were starting from scratch and had no or a few locomotives, the cost and time difference could be minimal. More and more locomotives are offered with dual-mode DC/DCC decoders from the factory, so DCC is "free". For others, the cost of adding DCC is not so bad -- around $20 for a fleet decoder that plugs into a provided socket in the locomotive.

DC can work well, DCC can work well. I just think it's always important to make apples-to-apples comparisons and use real-life current information on costs and complexity.

Thanks for pointing that out.

Said another way.... to operate my layout the way it always does, I could buy a DC power pack, the Aristo Craft Basic Train Engineer, 2 toggle switches, and 50 DC locos (or about 47 more than I need)..or...a wireless (noninfrared) dcc system and 50 dcc capable locos. The DC option is less expensive (primarily because I'm buying 47 more locos than I need, but what's new, huh). But, there are always more things to consider than cost.

Speaking of dual mode decoders... My situation causes me to approach the issue much differently than most. I like the lighting effects that the BTE allows with DC locomotives, but it does not work well with newer dual mode decoders. I often read where dcc modelers "rip out" the worthless factory light board in order to install a proper decoder. However, when I buy a locomotive with a dual mode decoder, such as an Atlas, I am in the unique position of having to rip out the decoder and replace it with a $6 light board. I figure the decoders fetch about $15 a piece.

Its interesting how much variety there can be in this hobby.

 

[cuyama]

to operate my layout the way it always does, I could buy a DC power pack, the Aristo Craft Basic Train Engineer, 2 toggle switches,

Yes. And the way you operate your layout with that equipment is still not the way DCC works. DCC would allow independent control of each of the locomotives anywhere on the layout simultaneously.

In your situation, only one locomotive runs at a time. Fine for you, not what a lot of folks want. They want multiple locos operating independently and simultaneously. That requires multiple blocks, multiple power packs (cabs), and cab selectors (electrical switches) with DC -- or DCC with decoders in the locos.

 

[Burlington Bob]

By cuyama:

Most folks who use DCC today don't use it to control the track switches. And probably most don't have sound. Rather, most chose DCC to make wiring for multiple engines running at once to be simpler.

That's my case exactly! I'm just starting over after about a 22 year absence from the modeling aspect of the hobby. All of my locos are DCC and I have a Digitrax Zephyr Extra to operate with. I will hopefully be starting construction of a 1960-1965 era CB&Q set in the Midwest this fall. I have no intention of having any sound units or operating turnouts by DCC. I'm only interested in the ease of wiring and the realistic operating potential it offers.

 

[trailrider]

By cuyama:
That's my case exactly! I'm just starting over after about a 22 year absence from the modeling aspect of the hobby. All of my locos are DCC and I have a Digitrax Zephyr Extra to operate with. I will hopefully be starting construction of a 1960-1965 era CB&Q set in the Midwest this fall. I have no intention of having any sound units or operating turnouts by DCC. I'm only interested in the ease of wiring and the realistic operating potential it offers.

Just as long as you don't go past 1969-1970. I just can't stand that green, black and white color scheme the BN adopted after the (choke) "merger". (Not that the three railroads weren't really one before 1969.) All kidding aside, best of luck with your layout.

I wasn't going to use DCC on my current layout, as I have about 55+ locos from about 58 years, off and on, of model railroading. But I still remember lying in a sleeping car berth and listening to the deep, sonorous sound of an E7 horn as the train rumbled through the Illinois countryside on the way from Chicago to southern Illinois, circa 1944-1950, to visit my Mom's folks. I sure wasn't going to try to convert all that motive power, but I just had to have at least one silver E-unit that could whistle for a grade crossing. So, I bought a Proto2000 E6, converted it to a Q E5, and added an MRC Tech 6, 6.0, and just to keep things straight (in my head), bought a Tech 4 260, and hooked both to a selector switch on my control panel. Easy to see which way the selector is pointing, and keep it on DC except when I'm running the E5A and an E8A with it.

Trailrider,
President of the Grashhook, Galesburg & Western Division, CB&Q, c. 1942-1958 or so.

 

[Burlington Bob]

Rest assured, trailrider, I won't make that mistake again! I'm NOT going to make the same mistake TWICE! Blackbirds and Chinese red along with silver or gray beats Cascade green anytime!

Still waiting for some pictures of your layout. Hint, hint.

 

[trailrider]

I actually took some photos, using a digital camera. But I'm not satisfied with the lighting, depth of field, etc. Plus, I just haven't had time to figure out how to publish them here. I'll try to borrow my son-in-law's 35mm digital SLR, and see if I can fit the pinhole disk I used in my old film camera. Got a bunch of black & white pictures I took on my previous layout about 30 years ago. Much of the rolling stock and locos are the same. But if I can find the prints, I may try to scan them into my confuser, and sign up for Photobucket.

 

[Trussrod]

Hi Mark
I've always used straight 'DC' with blocks and still am and have no plans on changing. I'm about one third of the way to getting all my hand laid track down on my 10x21ft C&S Short Line RR which is around the wall with a loop at either end which I walk between to enter the large C shaped layout. I'm using a Troller 2.5 Amp transformer for the main power but purchased an Aristo-Craft Basic Tran Engineer that is Radio controlled five or six years ago and really enjoy the ability to freely move along with the Loco and train and adjust the power as needed when climbing my steep grades of slowing it down when coming down grade. While sound can be interesting and can be installed even in a DC Loco tender or car I imagine it can become a bit annoying after awhile too.

I had an interesting experience awhile back as I had purchased a new MDC/Roundhouse Early 2-8-0 Consolidation that is now made by Athearnm, I believe, which has NS tires on it where my other MDC 2-8-0 has Brass tires on it and gets better traction. So I had the newer 2-8-0 pullinng three shorty passenger coaches up my 6 to 8% grade and it reached a spot where it couldn't get traction. It just happened to be in the beginning of a block so I killed the power there and brought the older 2-8-0 up behind end business coach and coupled up as I came to a stop. I turned on the block power and increased the power with the BTE hand throttle and the helper did indeed provide enough push to complete the climb up to the Ridge Crest area. That was a lot of fun and so realistic even though the lead engine did have wheel slip to it that's about as realistic as it gets!

Straight DC with the Walk-around Radio controlled hand throttle is just fine for me!

 

[Doughless]

Yes. And the way you operate your layout with that equipment is still not the way DCC works. DCC would allow independent control of each of the locomotives anywhere on the layout simultaneously.

In your situation, only one locomotive runs at a time. Fine for you, not what a lot of folks want. They want multiple locos operating independently and simultaneously. That requires multiple blocks, multiple power packs (cabs), and cab selectors (electrical switches) with DC -- or DCC with decoders in the locos.

Hmmm...maybe I miswrote something upstream, but I think most readers got the gist of my point. This isn't a DC or DCC comparison thread. I was only comparing what type of equipment it would take for my layout to accomplish the same thing in DC or DCC.

Yes, in addition to controlling each of my locomotives simultaneously and independently of each other all over the layout, there are also other features of DCC that would allow me to do many more things with my layout, that I also have no desire to do, easier and maybe more cost effective than DC.

Prior to the current era of double heading locomotives on even short trains, real shortlines or class I or II branch lines rarely operated multiple locomotives simultaneously over the same 15-or-so mile rural stretch. So, choosing such as a theme for a layout renders the ability for a layout to have multiple locomotive movement almost pointless. So its not just a DCC issue. In addition to DCC; DC blocks, multiple cabs, and selectors, all become equally irrelevant. Since diesel era shortlines have almost no use for ever turning an entire train, reverse loop and turning wye wiring become irrelevant as well.

Having a layout that renders both the technological evolution of operating systems and complicated wiring irrelevant is very liberating. But those are my feelings based upon my interests and level of satisfaction needed from the hobby. After all, what one person finds enjoyable, another finds boring; and what one person finds engaging, another might find to be a complicated mess.

 

[NYW&B]

A point that seems consistently lost on DCC enthusiasts in any of these threads is the fact that probably 95% of all model railroads today are run by just a single operator. And, even if the hobbyist does run more than one train at a time it is nearly always with the additional train(s) running on a closed loop while he is solely controlling operations in a yard, etc. Thus, the supernumerary trains can just as easily be powered with DC, or DCC, because no real operator control is necessary once the additional train(s) is in motion. Therefore, there really is no additional benefit to one method of control over the other in that a situation.

I would surely agree that for a large, multi-operator layout, DCC is clearly more beneficial, but that isn't truly reflective of the hobby's real world situation per se and, as a single operator, I'll be sticking with DC forever.

NYW&B

 

[cuyama]

A point that seems consistently lost on DCC enthusiasts in any of these threads is the fact that probably 95% of all model railroads today are run by just a single operator.

That's certainly not true around here. Maybe we're just more gregarious than some, John.

Edit: By the way, I'm not saying everyone should do DCC, far from it. DC is fine. DCC is fine. I've designed layouts for clients who planned to run them with multiple DC blocks and cabs.

I only post on these threads to clear up what I perceive to be misconceptions. And I certainly won't post on this one again, it seems my input is unwelcome.

It's clear that some people posting on the myriad DCC vs. DC threads have never wired any layout for mulitple simultaneous train control with either technology.

Many folks I've met using DCC today built and wired a DC layout previously. The reverse is not often true.

Carry on.

 

[Cjcrescent]

Rest assured, trailrider, I won't make that mistake again! I'm NOT going to make the same mistake TWICE! Blackbirds and Chinese red along with silver or gray beats Cascade green anytime!

Still waiting for some pictures of your layout. Hint, hint.

Bob,

These ought to do you heart good then!

SW-1500, converted into an SW-1000

Nickle plated Aeolus S-4 4-6-4 I restored for a friend.

Brass CB&Q 45 tonner

 

[Doughless]

It's clear that some people posting on the myriad DCC vs. DC threads have never wired any layout for mulitple simultaneous train control with either technology.

C'mon Byron, why does it matter, as long as long as the person doesn't say that dc installation is easy, or that DCC systems eliminate complexity? I've never said either, anywhere.

Its not necessary to have wired a multiple train all over the layout, DC model railroad to understand it is a PITN. The myriad of dc or dcc thread responses often come from the premise that independent simultaneous control of multiple trains is what modelers want. That is the major misconception that occurs. How the OP operates his train(s) is hardly ever revealed before the DCC'ers start committing to a recommendation. I know you don't do this but have seen plenty who do.

But the fact is, most everybody controls only one train at a time. Some people happen to do it while another operator is operating another train simultaneously as their own, on the same layout, as in a club (or someone's club-in-a-basement layout) and the rest of us control one train at a time alone by ourselves. DCC is best for the former, maybe not any better for the latter.

Its nice to see others who like lone wolf one train at a time model railroading and believe that dcc provides little enhancement to the layout.

*******************************************************
Back to the Op's topic...Since loco manufacturer's are bifurcating their products into DC and DCC/Sound, the cost difference of a new DCC capable locomotive and its DC locomotive sister is now running about $100. Although I think most DCC systems allow you to run a DC locomotive on setting '0', or something like that, that's a lot of features and power to buy to get the same one locomotive DC running capability. The price difference in locos is now is cementing me into DC for a long time, I'm afraid. Reducing the cost by installing the decoders into DC locomotives helps. Nevertheless, if I ran DCC, I would be cornered and committed into buying more expensive locomotives to get the same one locomotive running capability as if I stay with DC.

********************************************************

Carey, nice 45 (?) tonner. Great detail.

 

[Burlington Bob]

Thanks Carey! A perfect way to end the day.

Another plus for DCC, at least for N scale, is the added low speed control that the decoders offer. The difference before and after installing the decoders is very noticeable.

 

[railfan]

I have to agree with you Doughless on just about everything. The price difference between DCC equipped and non-equipped locomotives is more like $50 on M.B. Klein for the ones I like.....but that is plenty enough to keep me satisfied with DC.

And in general, just because I prefer DC doesn't make the DCC guys wrong.....and vice versa.

 

[Doughless]

I have to agree with you Doughless on just about everything. The price difference between DCC equipped and non-equipped locomotives is more like $50 on M.B. Klein for the ones I like.....but that is plenty enough to keep me satisfied with DC.

And in general, just because I prefer DC doesn't make the DCC guys wrong.....and vice versa.

Yes, its difficult to explain one's own opinion without implicitly criticizing the alternatives. That's not my intention.

I'll stop typing now...

 

[NYW&B]

That's certainly not true around here. Maybe we're just more gregarious than some, John.

Perhaps that's the answer, Byron. But nevertheless, single-operator, one-train-at-a-time, layouts are the overwhelming majority in my part of the country based on my experience and this has been true as long as I've been in the hobby (5 decades).

NYW&B