Considering Digitrax, MRC, and NCE Systems...Your Preference?

[Nscale]

I’m looking to buy a DCC starter set, and I think I’ve narrowed it down to either a Digitrax Zephyr, MRC Prodigy Express, or NCE PowerCab. In summary, here’s what I’d like from the system.

- The ability to control a relatively small N scale layout with 4-5 locomotives.
- The ability to control turnouts through stationary decoders.
- The ability to control the DCC system from a computer.

As this will be my first purchase of a DCC system, I just thought I’d see if I could get some thoughts or these opinions on these three systems, or just any comments on personal preference (overall build and quality, intuitiveness of the interface, etc.) of one manufacturer over another.

At the moment, I think I’m leaning toward the NCE PowerCab. The display on the PowerCab just seems like it can show much more information than the Zephyr’s quad 7-segment display. Also, NCE does offer a USB adapter for their system which is available for under $40.

Finally, by buying one of these “starter” models, am I limiting myself to certain functionality which is available in the more expensive models, or is the current rating/power output the main difference in these starter sets vs. the more expensive models?

Thanks to anyone who might be able to help!

 

[kbkchooch]

Without getting overly technical, I'll just get to a few quick tidbits that I believe are true.

MRC= limited in expandability and function.

Digitrax= power, computer interface(JMRI), full functions, yet the leap from Zephyr to a larger system is a huge jump.

NCE= power, computer interface(JMRI), full functions, and a Powercab can be easily incorporated into a Procab system. Plus more user friendly in the higher function areas, huge "geek" factor with Digitrax.

One other thought. Over the last 10 years or so, I have seen or helped convert several layouts from Digitrax to NCE, but I have never heard of anyone going from NCE to Digitrax.

 

[diburning]

Digitrax and NCE are your best bets. Some people prefer one to the other for various reasons, but I use Digitrax.

 

[Pete V]

I am well pleased with digitrax with two remotes. If I tried to operate more than three engines at once my head would explode so the Zephyr has everything I will ever need.

 

[Espeefan]

Without getting overly technical, I'll just get to a few quick tidbits that I believe are true.

MRC= limited in expandability and function.

Digitrax= power, computer interface(JMRI), full functions, yet the leap from Zephyr to a larger system is a huge jump.

NCE= power, computer interface(JMRI), full functions, and a Powercab can be easily incorporated into a Procab system. Plus more user friendly in the higher function areas, huge "geek" factor with Digitrax.

One other thought. Over the last 10 years or so, I have seen or helped convert several layouts from Digitrax to NCE, but I have never heard of anyone going from NCE to Digitrax.

Agreed. The system prompts you though the programming process...in English, and you get to pick from a list you can read. All messages are in english. No dots or symbols. And you can understand the manual!

 

[Cjcrescent]

...

One other thought. Over the last 10 years or so, I have seen or helped convert several layouts from Digitrax to NCE, but I have never heard of anyone going from NCE to Digitrax.

Well here it is. We have a modeler here that tried to wire an NCE system into his layout. He was doing it by himself, and it was a disaster! As I understand it, he said he spent more time on the phone to tech support. I don't know if it was the way his layout is wired or what. I know that the ratio of NCE/Digitrax users here is about 1 to 99.

He asked for help from our club, and within two weeks we had him up and running on a Digitrax system. His layout is approx. 30'x20' and had been powered by a PSI command control system. He has kindly offered our club the use of his layout so the members in the club who don't have their Dispatchers Certificate from the NMRA can get it.

Alan, you know him, it's Larry Deagon.

One thing that you need to check on is to see if you can find the ratio of NCE to Digitrax users in the area. I would go with the group that has the most users. This would give you a "built in" database of users that can help you on any installation and troubleshooting problems you may have.

 

[kbkchooch]

Well here it is. We have a modeler here that tried to wire an NCE system into his layout. He was doing it by himself, and it was a disaster! As I understand it, he said he spent more time on the phone to tech support. I don't know if it was the way his layout is wired or what. I know that the ratio of NCE/Digitrax users here is about 1 to 99.

He asked for help from our club, and within two weeks we had him up and running on a Digitrax system. His layout is approx. 30'x20' and had been powered by a PSI command control system. He has kindly offered our club the use of his layout so the members in the club who don't have their Dispatchers Certificate from the NMRA can get it.

Alan, you know him, it's Larry Deagon.

Wow, there was one!! Gives me hope for finding a Pegasus or Sasquatch!!

seriously,

I know enough about electricity to be a danger to myself, but when we initially planned my layout it boiled down to 5 power districts and 2 reversing loops. (20x25)
Something that would work with any bodies system.
Must have been an execution issue on his end. Every system I have heard of or seen converted over wasnt because of the system per se. It was due to the interface with the operators.

 

[Cjcrescent]

Yep and in a few weeks we're going to have a yeti there as yardmaster!

 

[kbkchooch]

. 30'x20' and had been powered by a PSI command control system. .

Wow, sounds like what our club had back in the stone age, a Mann-made CTC16 system

 

[Alcomotive]

I’m looking to buy a DCC starter set, and I think I’ve narrowed it down to either a Digitrax Zephyr, MRC Prodigy Express, or NCE PowerCab. In summary, here’s what I’d like from the system.

- The ability to control a relatively small N scale layout with 4-5 locomotives.
- The ability to control turnouts through stationary decoders.
- The ability to control the DCC system from a computer.

As this will be my first purchase of a DCC system, I just thought I’d see if I could get some thoughts or these opinions on these three systems, or just any comments on personal preference (overall build and quality, intuitiveness of the interface, etc.) of one manufacturer over another.

At the moment, I think I’m leaning toward the NCE PowerCab. The display on the PowerCab just seems like it can show much more information than the Zephyr’s quad 7-segment display. Also, NCE does offer a USB adapter for their system which is available for under $40.

Finally, by buying one of these “starter” models, am I limiting myself to certain functionality which is available in the more expensive models, or is the current rating/power output the main difference in these starter sets vs. the more expensive models?

Thanks to anyone who might be able to help!

digitrax has a computer module hookup called PR3 uses USB for your info...

 

[Cjcrescent]

Wow, there was one!! Gives me hope for finding a Pegasus or Sasquatch!!

seriously,

...
Must have been an execution issue on his end. Every system I have heard of or seen converted over wasnt because of the system per se. It was due to the interface with the operators.

It was a wiring issue. His layout went through several rewirings for his control system through the years, but he always wired the new system on top of the old! He currently has the layout wired for DC, using common rail, but with less than half the gaps needed even on this system. His DC control panel is still connected to the layout. Then it was wired for PSI, which required some additional wiring. We've had to "debug" the layout to get anything to work right, without having a short that ended several op sessions we had there in the past. He used some great big 20amp transformers to supply all the power to the layout. IIRC

One time a train, with metal bodied cars, was accidentally parked with one wheel across a gap. By the time the circuit breakers, set for 8 amps due to the PSI system, tripped, that entire train had its wheels welded to the rails. Another time, the body on an Atlas GP-7 melted completely down in the middle of the loco, because of a short thru the PSI receiver.

IIRC Alan was there for the train welding, and I was there when the loco melted.

 

[Espeefan]

Well here it is. We have a modeler here that tried to wire an NCE system into his layout. He was doing it by himself, and it was a disaster! As I understand it, he said he spent more time on the phone to tech support. I don't know if it was the way his layout is wired or what. I know that the ratio of NCE/Digitrax users here is about 1 to 99.

He asked for help from our club, and within two weeks we had him up and running on a Digitrax system. His layout is approx. 30'x20' and had been powered by a PSI command control system. He has kindly offered our club the use of his layout so the members in the club who don't have their Dispatchers Certificate from the NMRA can get it. Alan, you know him, it's Larry Deagon.

Yep, I remember Larry and the layout well. And because it's that layout, you don't get to use it for comparison. It was a half a$$ed conversion from DC block to PSI Dynatrol, which he then tried to convert to DCC. As you'll remember the Dynatrol worked poorly at best. I remember several sessions where we waited a considerable amount of time while Larry fussed and figured out what was wrong, losing a good chunk of the session. I don't know what Larry did besides be totally lost and refuse help until he was desperate, but I can tell you from installing both systems that there is little to no difference in how they hook up to the railroad. The big difference is the Human/Machine Infterface, and after using both systems, I still find NCE easier to understand. From many years of observation: computer geeks like Digitrax. Guys who just want to run trains tend to favor NCE. We have both here in Milwaukee, and there are exceptions to this, but by and large, that's how it shakes out.

 

[TrinityJayOne]

I'll give a +1 to the PowerCab. I haven't done any of it, but from what I've read the upgrade process is very straight forward and NCE have done it in such a way that your PowerCab unit won't ever become obselete just because you added a new component. It's a 2amp system and for 4-5 locos this will be fine, probably even if they all have sound. I've run 6 locos at once (lights but no sound) which only used up .5amps, and that was running the trains flat out at unrealistic speeds.

One limitation of the PowerCab and the JMRI is that it apparently can't send acknowledgement to the JMRI software. For example you can use JMRI to manually change a signal aspect, but the PowerCab can't send through information on track occupancy to change them automatically. My understanding here is very limited so others will probably know more about it and whether or not it is a hardware limitation or a software limitation that might be patched out later.

 

[Espeefan]

Our club is just now getting into signalling, and if your layout is that complex, you probably won't be using a Powercab anyway. The Power Pro systems don't have this limitation.

 

[kbkchooch]

I'll give a +1 to the PowerCab. I haven't done any of it, but from what I've read the upgrade process is very straight forward and NCE have done it in such a way that your PowerCab unit won't ever become obselete just because you added a new component. .

What NCE has done is made sure a Powercab is never obsolete. Powercabs can function as Procabs when used on the 5 and 10 amp Powerhouse Pro system. Worked out really well for some of our club members. They got Powercabs for thier small home layouts, but they can use the same cab at the club. The more the members bring, the less the club has to furnish.

As far as JMRI, I dont know if there will ever be compatability with Powercabs. I must admit, I never checked into it. I just plugged my PHP into my computer though a serial data cable! No hardware/adapters required!

 

[Cjcrescent]

...I haven't done any of it, but from what I've read the upgrade process is very straight forward and NCE have done it in such a way that your PowerCab unit won't ever become obselete just because you added a new component...

(emphasis is mine)

Digitrax has been like this pretty much from the beginning. They make sure that their newer components have complete backwards compatibility with their older components. There may be one exception, and that would be with their very first system, the Genesis or Challenger, (I forget which was first,) system from the start of the company.

Yep, I remember Larry and the layout well. And because it's that layout, you don't get to use it for comparison. It was a half a$$ed conversion from DC block to PSI Dynatrol, which he then tried to convert to DCC. As you'll remember the Dynatrol worked poorly at best. I remember several sessions where we waited a considerable amount of time while Larry fussed and figured out what was wrong, losing a good chunk of the session. I don't know what Larry did besides be totally lost and refuse help until he was desperate, but I can tell you from installing both systems that there is little to no difference in how they hook up to the railroad. The big difference is the Human/Machine Infterface, and after using both systems, I still find NCE easier to understand. From many years of observation: computer geeks like Digitrax. Guys who just want to run trains tend to favor NCE. We have both here in Milwaukee, and there are exceptions to this, but by and large, that's how it shakes out.

Alan.
Are you calling me a GEEK???? At my age???? Actually, I too love to run trains, and do so quite easily with my Digitrax. I've had absolutely none of the so call "difficulties" with the system that people have kept harping on for years. I don't even know where my manuals for the system are. I haven't even picked them up since I installed the system on the layout years ago. While I do most of my programming on my computer, simply for the convenience, I can and do program easily with the 402 throttle if necessary. But back to the discussion at hand....

Of course, you're absolutely correct in the description of the wiring. It is completely "half-a$$ed". I was trying to be nice. I do disagree that its not a fair comparison. How many layouts have you seen that have had wiring that was wrong, in some aspect. I'm seen quite a few, and most of these were wired after all the track was installed, which Larry did, and not as each area of track was laid. I think that since the DC controls were installed using a common rail system, I do believe that the Dynatrol wasn't designed to operate on common rail, where DCC can be operated in the common rail environment. To show this, just look at Digitrax's signal system. I believe that it has to have common rail wiring to operate properly.
However, since the basic system has been installed, there haven't been any disasters like the ones I've described earlier and there haven't been any "mysterious" shorts with the trains they have run. No magic blue smoke has been released from any of the components either. One of the restrictions that Larry had put on us was the wiring couldn't be changed. (Which was completely against our advice, as it needs to be simplified if only to make the troubleshooting easier.) But I believe that the guys have added some "discrete" gaps needed to cut down on the shorts and freeze ups.

 

[kbkchooch]

Of course, you're absolutely correct in the description of the wiring. It is completely "half-a$$ed". I was trying to be nice. I do disagree that its not a fair comparison. How many layouts have you seen that have had wiring that was wrong, in some aspect. I'm seen quite a few, and most of these were wired after all the track was installed, which Larry did, and not as each area of track was laid. I think that since the DC controls were installed using a common rail system, I do believe that the Dynatrol wasn't designed to operate on common rail, where DCC can be operated in the common rail environment. To show this, just look at Digitrax's signal system. I believe that it has to have common rail wiring to operate properly.
However, since the basic system has been installed, there haven't been any disasters like the ones I've described earlier and there haven't been any "mysterious" shorts with the trains they have run. No magic blue smoke has been released from any of the components either. One of the restrictions that Larry had put on us was the wiring couldn't be changed. (Which was completely against our advice, as it needs to be simplified if only to make the troubleshooting easier.) But I believe that the guys have added some "discrete" gaps needed to cut down on the shorts and freeze ups.

Reminds me of a layout where I helped in the conversion to NCE. It too had Dynatrol as well as 12 volt DC and Digitrax, all controlled with a set of switches.
One whole section, had the same colored wire, leading to the joke "If it's white, it must be wire!"
I've fixed tangles in monofilament fishing line that made more sense than his wiring!

 

[Pete V]

Part of my business involves wiring control panels for Silicon controlled rectifiers for really large variable amperage molybdenum disilicide furnaces. Those panels can look like spaghetti pretty easily and I have learned to use raceways for the wire as well as coding tape which is sold in little booklets at electrical supplies. Home depot has the booklets which go from 1-15 as well as A-Z which will allow for a lot of combinations.

I say this only because I have been using wire on the layout that comes in 500 foot spools and the colors are less than conventional. I use white for my neutral lines and the hot lead can be pink, tan, whatever. I always tag the ends with a number. Even so, under the table is really a hard place to work.

I certainly agree that running a 12 gauge buss around the entire track is the only long term sane thing to do. Even so, it makes remote control of switching messy.

 

[Espeefan]

(emphasis is mine)

Digitrax has been like this pretty much from the beginning. They make sure that their newer components have complete backwards compatibility with their older components. There may be one exception, and that would be with their very first system, the Genesis or Challenger, (I forget which was first,) system from the start of the company..

That would be the Big Boy. Command station in the throttle, similar to the Power Cab, but could not be fully integrated into later systems. Now essentially extinct!

Alan.
Are you calling me a GEEK???? At my age???? Actually, I too love to run trains, and do so quite easily with my Digitrax. I've had absolutely none of the so call "difficulties" with the system that people have kept harping on for years. I don't even know where my manuals for the system are. I haven't even picked them up since I installed the system on the layout years ago. While I do most of my programming on my computer, simply for the convenience, I can and do program easily with the 402 throttle if necessary. But back to the discussion at hand.....

Not directly, but if you are implying that those of us older fellows can't be geeks...well I have to disagree. We certainly can!

Of course, you're absolutely correct in the description of the wiring. It is completely "half-a$$ed". I was trying to be nice. I do disagree that its not a fair comparison. How many layouts have you seen that have had wiring that was wrong, in some aspect. I'm seen quite a few, and most of these were wired after all the track was installed, which Larry did, and not as each area of track was laid. I think that since the DC controls were installed using a common rail system, I do believe that the Dynatrol wasn't designed to operate on common rail, where DCC can be operated in the common rail environment. To show this, just look at Digitrax's signal system. I believe that it has to have common rail wiring to operate properly.
However, since the basic system has been installed, there haven't been any disasters like the ones I've described earlier and there haven't been any "mysterious" shorts with the trains they have run. No magic blue smoke has been released from any of the components either. One of the restrictions that Larry had put on us was the wiring couldn't be changed. (Which was completely against our advice, as it needs to be simplified if only to make the troubleshooting easier.) But I believe that the guys have added some "discrete" gaps needed to cut down on the shorts and freeze ups.

It isn't a fair comparison because I believe Karl was talking about straight conversions from Digitrax to NCE. Larry's layout has now had four different control systems and the ongoing issues he had with his wiring make any sort of evaluation between one system or the other impossible. On another thread, I got into a discussion where another modeler complained about DCC's unreliability based on operating at a friends layout where DCC had replaced DC block control. Lots of problems. Obviously from a poor conversion job. Can't blame the DCC equipment for that, no matter whose it was (he never said) Start with bad wiring, get bad installation. Period. I could have made the NCE work on Larry's layout, but I also would have ended up ripping about half of his wiring out in the process.

Not trying to turn this into a NCE vs Digitrax thing...that issue will never be resolved any more than Mac vs PC. It's a personal choice which is why asking "what should I buy?" is only going to take you so far. The answer will always be: "I own (whatever) and I think it's great, you should buy it". from a bunch of different people. I see the same thing on airbrush forums, car forums, you name it.

I transitioned to NCE because the club up here uses it. I sold off my Digitrax because whatever I end up building at home will be much smaller. I went with a Powercab because it is easier for me to program with it that it was with my Super Empire Builder (including the DT-400-R). Digitrax does have two things I like though: An audible short circuit warning (NCE's is not, it's visual) and the little clicks you get when you press buttons on the handset. It's nice to hear them if you are entering a long command.

I never read my Digitrax manuals either. Couldn't make heads or tails of the darned things. Written by technogeeks for technogeeks! but you kind of make my point a little when you say you program on the computer. There are many who don't want a computer to be a necessary part of their model railroading experience. I only use JMRI when programming diesel Tsunamis. Everything else is easily and quickly done on the NCE handset. Diesel Tsunamis have just too many danged variables!

 

[Tuna]

Maybe we need a "poll" here to see what percentage of members are on what types of DCC systems?

The only DCC I've ever used is Digitrax Zephyr with a DT400 throttle added. No experience with any other DCC. The Digitrax manuals are a little difficult to read though.