Choosing a DCC Starter Set for Large Basement Layout

[jdtoronto]

<snipped>

Within 5 minutes it was set up. Within 20 minutes my 4 year old son was running a train all by himself.

-John

Well, that really says it all doesn't it! Congratulations.

John

 

[Motley]

Thanks all for the advice and wisdom. After long consideration and painful back and forth between Digitrax and NCE I decided to Pony up the $$ and get the NCE Power Pro 5 amp Wireless System. Here is why: While Digitrax Super Empire builder offered a 5 amp system and the cheapest price (around $280) however, it did not feature a programming track, nor could it read CV values from Locomotives. -Features I decided I wanted. The Digitrax Super Chief did do all this, and had 5 amps and had wireless, and it was around $500 even. Well its like waiting for a train for 20 minutes. Whats an additional 10 minutes. So I ponied up the extra $60-80 bucks for the loaded NCE system and Im totally happy.

Within 5 minutes it was set up. Within 20 minutes my 4 year old son was running a train all by himself.

-John

Good choice! I have the same exact system, and I love it. It has worked flawlessly for about a year now.

Now you need to download the free software called Decoder Pro JRMI, it makes it a lot easier to program CVs. All you need is a USB to Serial cable, connect it up to your PC. You can manage all your locos in there, save the CV configurations, so if you have to reset a decoder, you can be back in no time flat.

http://jmri.sourceforge.net/install/WindowsNew.shtml

 

[fast_ian]

Now you need to download the free software called Decoder Pro JRMI, it makes it a lot easier to program CVs....

+1,000

JMRI is the absolute *best* - Bob J is in line for Sainthood IMHO [Particularly after that BS lawsuit! ]

One minor clarification - The link you provided is to the Windows version - It also runs on Linux and Mac OSX.

Cheers,
Ian

 

[DoubleDAZ]

Don't underestimate the locals. You will inevitably have issues and questions, if you are using something they are familiar with then you will find it easy to get help and configuration advice and assistance. Possibly way more than you want or need, but that's another story.

Well, the locals werre'nt much help, they both sell different systems (NCE and Bachmann/MRC) and the local club uses another (Digitrax).

I have to admit I'm now leaning toward the cheapest system, which seems to be Bachmann. My 10 x 6 N-scale layout will only run 2 trains (3 at the most with a switching loco)), and pretty much be just me. The Bachmann E-Z Command system will probably do just fine. My only concern is switch feedback, or at least something to keep me straight as the which way they are set. NCE looked very nice, but I haven't researched prices, etc., I'm still working on the plans. With what little I know, the most I'll be out is the $80 for the entry level Bachmann at Amazon. Supoort would be nice, but if I can't learn to program on my own, I don't need to be doing this. When and if I get into more with sound, then support becomes a bigger factor.

 

[Espeefan]

Thanks all for the advice and wisdom. After long consideration and painful back and forth between Digitrax and NCE I decided to Pony up the $$ and get the NCE Power Pro 5 amp Wireless System. Here is why: While Digitrax Super Empire builder offered a 5 amp system and the cheapest price (around $280) however, it did not feature a programming track, nor could it read CV values from Locomotives. -Features I decided I wanted. The Digitrax Super Chief did do all this, and had 5 amps and had wireless, and it was around $500 even. Well its like waiting for a train for 20 minutes. Whats an additional 10 minutes. So I ponied up the extra $60-80 bucks for the loaded NCE system and Im totally happy.

Within 5 minutes it was set up. Within 20 minutes my 4 year old son was running a train all by himself.

-John

Congratulations! Excellent choice. My club uses that system. After a little time fiddling with it, your four year old son will probably be able to program too!

 

[jtomai]

but if I can't learn to program on my own, I don't need to be doing this.

Ack! Listen, I am a programmer in real life -Java, C++, internet...etc...

When they refer to DCC and "programming", its nothing like "Real" programing. In DCC you are merely going through a menu system and editing
CV (Configuration Values)... there is nothing to fear. Each system has a User Interface with a guide that walks you through editing CV values. Really high end DCC locomotives just have more CV's cause they can do more things, or not do them based on the value in the CV for that activity/property. If you can learn to program your Tivo to record your fav shows, then you can setup your DCC.

 

[fast_ian]

.... If you can learn to program your Tivo to record your fav shows, then you can setup your DCC.

+1

However, I believe the process is made immensely easier - Sometimes downright *fun* with JMRI's Decoderpro..... Messing with momentum & speed curves and running the results is, for me at least, a large part of the fun! Sure, you *can* do it from the CAB, but shaping a speed curve by clicking the screen and hitting "update" is easy.

As always, my 02c,
Cheers,
Ian

 

[jtomai]

I'll be there soon, my layout is well underway. But I still have the third section to build entirely. I mean I havent even built the bench work for the third section yet. My first section is 'complete' that is track is down, major wiring completed... Im adding automated turnouts there now. Second section... 1/2 the track is down... So Ive got alot of work to do before I really start enjoying it. But I've learned its best to do a little of this and a little of that at the same time as I move through the entire process. Im going to learn something about installing automated switches on section 1 that will be valuable to me when I get to sections 2 & 3.

JMRI is on the horizon!

 

[CSX Robert]

...
I have to admit I'm now leaning toward the cheapest system, which seems to be Bachmann. My 10 x 6 N-scale layout will only run 2 trains (3 at the most with a switching loco)), and pretty much be just me. The Bachmann E-Z Command system will probably do just fine...

Be sure you understand the limitations of the EZ Command before diving in - the biggest one being no CV programming(other than address). You can not change the running characteristics of the locos, such as adding momentum or limiting the top speed. If you get any sound locos you can not adjust sound settings such as volumes or selecting whistles or horns. You also can not control standard turnout decoders with the EZ command(I say "standard" because Bachmann does make a turnout with a built in decoder that you can control by giving it an engine address).

 

[DoubleDAZ]

Be sure you understand the limitations of the EZ Command before diving in - the biggest one being no CV programming(other than address). You can not change the running characteristics of the locos, such as adding momentum or limiting the top speed. If you get any sound locos you can not adjust sound settings such as volumes or selecting whistles or horns. You also can not control standard turnout decoders with the EZ command(I say "standard" because Bachmann does make a turnout with a built in decoder that you can control by giving it an engine address).

Personally, I think I should get the entry-level NCE #524025 Power Cab 2 Amp DCC System with Power Supply. The product summary says it's a complete high end 2-Amp DCC system in one compact hand-held throttle that operates trains, lights, sounds and more, and it includes manual, cables and power supply - nothing else to buy. I think this will satisfy the needs of my planned 10 x 6 N-scale layout where I intend to run 2-3 trains mostly by myself. I would like flywheel and momentum action and probably sound at some point. I don't know about further automation of switches, etc., but I' sure I will want to add some lighting, etc., as I progress to the scenery and building stage. I guess if I'm already thinking in those terms, I should forego the Bachmann in favor of something only a little more expensive that supports those options. From what I gather, this NCE unit basically supports everything that NCE offers, except wireless, and the effective difference with higher-end units is the number of things I can control. Am I correct or am I missing some other limitations?

 

[fast_ian]

Personally, I think I should get the entry-level NCE #524025 Power Cab 2 Amp DCC System with Power Supply.

Certainly a viable & popular choice - About which I know nothing!

However, I think I'd also have a long look at the new Digitrax Zephyr Extra - I'm not saying it's "better", although I do know it can be expanded easily to include wireless walkaround if desired.

http://www.digitrax.com/prd_zep_xtra.php

Cheers,
Ian

 

[Espeefan]

Personally, I think I should get the entry-level NCE #524025 Power Cab 2 Amp DCC System with Power Supply. The product summary says it's a complete high end 2-Amp DCC system in one compact hand-held throttle that operates trains, lights, sounds and more, and it includes manual, cables and power supply - nothing else to buy. I think this will satisfy the needs of my planned 10 x 6 N-scale layout where I intend to run 2-3 trains mostly by myself. I would like flywheel and momentum action and probably sound at some point. I don't know about further automation of switches, etc., but I' sure I will want to add some lighting, etc., as I progress to the scenery and building stage. I guess if I'm already thinking in those terms, I should forego the Bachmann in favor of something only a little more expensive that supports those options. From what I gather, this NCE unit basically supports everything that NCE offers, except wireless, and the effective difference with higher-end units is the number of things I can control. Am I correct or am I missing some other limitations?

The Powercab would be a good choice. I happen to have one and it will do everything you need, plus serve as a cab on any NCE system where you might operate as a guest. It will also program any sound decoder without a programming track booster. I'm sure I'll get corrected if I'm wrong here, but I believe that this is something the Zephyr won't do. There is also a USB adaptor if you want to tie The PowerCab into your computer and use Decoder Pro.

I like mine. Sold my Super Empire Builder and bought one. It fits my needs. Good Luck with whatever you pick.

 

[fast_ian]

... It will also program any sound decoder without a programming track booster. I'm sure I'll get corrected if I'm wrong here, but I believe that this is something the Zephyr won't do.

You are correct in that you'll get corrected!

I only have one sound loco (with what many consider a "fussy" QSI decoder) but it programs just fine on the program track without a booster (using JMRI btw) - My *belief* is you really shouldn't need a booster if stuff is working as it should. [As always, YMMV....]

Cheers,
Ian

 

[Espeefan]

Is this the latest Zephyr, or the original one, and will it program sound decoders without JMRI? I have read posts here and on the Soundtraxx list where Zephyr users have trouble programming off the system (not JMRI users). Not everyone uses JMRI, and some prefer not to, so I don't assume it will be present when comparing equipment.

 

[fast_ian]

Is this the latest Zephyr, or the original one, and will it program sound decoders without JMRI?

"The original and I don't know" are the short answers!

If JMRI can do it I see no reason why it can't be done from the CAB but have honestly never tried - I really don't want to mess with any decoders without JMRI and it's backups!

Cheers,
Ian

 

[Espeefan]

"The original and I don't know" are the short answers!

If JMRI can do it I see no reason why it can't be done from the CAB but have honestly never tried - I really don't want to mess with any decoders without JMRI and it's backups!

Cheers,
Ian

Well if any other users out there know this answer, let's hear it. Using JMRI adds a computer and PR-3 or similar adaptor to the mix and is a little different from programming straight from the command station. The PowerCab will do either. Will the Zephyr? Just for the record, the Zephyr is a fine system, and I don't have anything against it, I'm just interested in keeping the comparison "apples to apples".

On JMRI, I do use it, but at the club, not at home. I know my CV's well enough to set up a steam Tsumani off the Powercab handset, as well as any non sound decoder. For some of the more advanced programming of QSI decoders and diesel Tsunamis, I'll go down to the club and use JMRI. It keeps me out of hours of reading decoder manuals

 

[DoubleDAZ]

The Powercab would be a good choice. I happen to have one and it will do everything you need, plus serve as a cab on any NCE system where you might operate as a guest. It will also program any sound decoder without a programming track booster. I'm sure I'll get corrected if I'm wrong here, but I believe that this is something the Zephyr won't do. There is also a USB adaptor if you want to tie The PowerCab into your computer and use Decoder Pro.

I like mine. Sold my Super Empire Builder and bought one. It fits my needs. Good Luck with whatever you pick.

Thanks for the confirmation, Alan. My wife is getting a knee replacement Monday, so I've been a little distracted lately and probably could have done a better job of researching the differences, but I'm sure they'd all have gotten the job done. In this hobby though, you never quite know where you'll end up and I just don't know enough yet to figure out which options I haven't thought about.

I think I finally figured out the difference between the number of trains it will run at the same time with 2 amps vs the number of trains it can run if the power supply is large enough. It always bothered me when the specs said 12, but the descriptions I read said only 4. And, even though they say 4 with a 2 amp power supply, YMMV and you might be able to actually run 6. Then too, some systems come with 3 amp power supplies, so they sound like the better deal. Fortunately, I've got time before I buy, so I can do more reading.

 

[Espeefan]

Thanks for the confirmation, Alan. My wife is getting a knee replacement Monday, so I've been a little distracted lately and probably could have done a better job of researching the differences, but I'm sure they'd all have gotten the job done. In this hobby though, you never quite know where you'll end up and I just don't know enough yet to figure out which options I haven't thought about.

I think I finally figured out the difference between the number of trains it will run at the same time with 2 amps vs the number of trains it can run if the power supply is large enough. It always bothered me when the specs said 12, but the descriptions I read said only 4. And, even though they say 4 with a 2 amp power supply, YMMV and you might be able to actually run 6. Then too, some systems come with 3 amp power supplies, so they sound like the better deal. Fortunately, I've got time before I buy, so I can do more reading.

Well I hope she does OK with the surgery. That can be a little distracting, can't it? I'd suggest you try both systems if you can lay hands on them at a LHS. What you'll get from the forums is usually a variation on the theme "I bought this and really like it". Few have experience on more than one system. It's your money and you are going to live with what you buy, not us, so try before you buy if you can.

 

[CSX Robert]

Well if any other users out there know this answer, let's hear it. Using JMRI adds a computer and PR-3 or similar adaptor to the mix and is a little different from programming straight from the command station. The PowerCab will do either. Will the Zephyr?..

Yes it will. The Zephyr does have trouble programming some sound decoders on the program track in it's normal programming mode(more on that in a minute), but there are two ways around that issue. One method is to use ops mode programming, sometimes referred to as "programming on the main," and the other is to use a mode that Digitrax calls "Blast mode"(although only documented in the manual for the Zephyr Xtra, it is available on the original Zephyr as well).

As to why the zephyr has trouble with some sound decoders: The NMRA has a recommended practice for the amount of current that the command station can provide on the programming track. The reason for this is so that if you place a mis-wired decoder on it you hopefully won't damage the decoder. Some sound decoders require more current than the recommended amount to be programmed. The Zephyr is within the recommended current and so will not program some decoders. When the Power Cab was designed, sound decoders were becoming more popular and NCE intentionally designed it with more current than the recommended amount when in programming track mode to be more likely to be able to program sound decoders.

 

[fast_ian]

Yes it will.

Thanks for that!

.....and the other is to use a mode that Digitrax calls "Blast mode"(although only documented in the manual for the Zephyr Xtra, it is available on the original Zephyr as well).

*Huge* thanks for that!.... No F/W upgrades needed? I just need to read the new manual? That would be very cool!

Cheers,
Ian
PS - I assume "blast mode" simply ignores the RP and makes more juice available to the programming track?