Yet another Tortoise Switch machine question for DCC...


P

Psapple83

Member
Hey all,
So I'm finally at the point where I'm ready to install some turnouts, and I just got 2 brand new Circuitron Tortoise slo-mo switch machines in the mail. I have a few questions, because I have been literally searching the web for hours looking for answers (including this forum) and nobody seems to answer my specific questions. Keep in mind, I'm not an electrician or electrical engineer so hopefully I don't sound too dumb!

1. I'm using a DPDT with center off, mini-toggle 6a. Is this ok?

2. My understanding is that I CANNOT use the track bus from my Digitrax DCS100 (5a) to power my switch machine? (I'm not even yet to the understanding of powering my frogs yet...I have insulated frog turnouts for the most part...)

3. If I can use the track bus- will the voltage be higher than 12v? I have searched everywhere for the DCS100 output voltage, can't find it, and do not own a voltage meter.

4. If I can't use the track bus- I need to use another power source- like an old DC throttle? I have an Athearn 0-16v DC throttle I could hook up and maybe leave at like 50-70% power?

Edit: 5. If I forget to switch the DPDT back to Center Off, will that damage the Tortoise?


thanks in advance for your advice!
 
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A little more detail.
The Tortoise machine works off of DC only. Using a center off switch is not necessary because the Tortoise is a stall machine. It's designed to just sit there forever under power. A stall machine means you can apply power at low current full time in one direction or the other. That will keep the points of the rails against the main rail.
Using an old DC power supply is a good idea. Setting it at 50% is fine. You can even play with it and watch how your Tortoise will respond.
 
1. I'm using a DPDT with center off, mini-toggle 6a. Is this ok? - yes
2. My understanding is that I CANNOT use the track bus from my Digitrax DCS100 (5a) to power my switch machine? -no, you can if you want. Diodes will rectify the DCC to a straight DC power for the Tortoise. But my question back to you is, "Why would you want to?" DCC power is very expensive. Straight DC or AC power for the tortoise can be had cheaply from wall warts or old toy train power packs.
3. If I can use the track bus- will the voltage be higher than 12v? I have searched everywhere for the DCS100 output voltage, can't find it, and do not own a voltage meter. - Yes it will be higher. Probably 13.8 Volts.
4. If I can't use the track bus- I need to use another power source- like an old DC throttle? I have an Athearn 0-16v DC throttle I could hook up and maybe leave at like 50-70% power? - Yes. You could probably use it at full throttle if you wanted to. That 16V is with no load, as soon as a voltage is applied the volts will drop. You could also use the AC output also, once again using diodes (which, by the way, is my favorite way to power tortoise). The tortoise instruction sheet shows three ways to power them --. straight DC (which is what you are talking about with the DPDT switches), bi-polar DC so one would use SPDT switches, and AC with diodes on the SPDT switches.
5. If I forget to switch the DPDT back to Center Off, will that damage the Tortoise? - No, Tortoise are designed to operate with full power on all the time. It might be better to not switch them to center off.

If you are going to continue working with these electrical things it will be well worth your while to get a multi-meter. You can get one that works great for cheap at Harbor Freight Tool stores.
 
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#1. You can, but a basic two position DPDT is better. As Ken said, you actually WANT to keep the current applied to a tortoise to make sure that it keeps pushing the points against the rails. Without power applied, the points may back off the rails slightly. The other benefit of keeping the current always on is that you can wire LEDs in-line with the motor leads to continuously indicate which way the switch is thrown.
#2 & #3. What JerryHensler said above.
4. You could use an old DC throttle, sure. That said, my personal preference is a basic 9-12V DC wall-wart supply that you no longer need. Tortoises draw very little current, so you can easily power up to a couple of dozen of them (along with associated LEDs) from a single .5A supply.
5. Per point #1 - no it will not. In fact, you will want power to always be on when running trains.
 
Thanks guys, this is helpful. So, as you were saying to install the LED's, I would use option #3 on the tortoise install sheet? (I'm confused because option 3 uses SPDT)

I'm using center off DPDT only because I got a bag of 50 of them used for $2 at the last train show- someone was taking apart their layout. I'll probably look to replace them if you guys say its best
 
Psapple83 said:
Thanks guys, this is helpful. So, as you were saying to install the LED's, I would use option #3 on the tortoise install sheet? (I'm confused because option 3 uses SPDT)

I'm using center off DPDT only because I got a bag of 50 of them used for $2 at the last train show- someone was taking apart their layout. I'll probably look to replace them if you guys say its best
Click to expand...

You can install LEDs simply in-line with one of the leads from your DPDT going to the motor contacts (1 or 8) of your switch machine. One very important thing that I should've mentioned is that with this method you should be using two-lead bi-color LEDs (red/green works well) to allow current to flow in both directions. This way the LED will glow green when you throw the switch one way, red in the other. Great for installations in panels or in a single target 2-aspect signals (or both!)
 
If you're using DCC check out the NCE "switch its" and "switch eights".
I use them with LED's inline and they are fantastic!
 
You might want to just get the machines installed and operating then try the LED thing later if you don't fully understand it.
 
Psapple83 said:
Hey all, So I'm finally at the point where I'm ready to install some turnouts, and I just got 2 brand new Circuitron Tortoise slo-mo switch machines in the mail. I have a few questions, because I have been literally searching the web for hours looking for answers (including this forum) and nobody seems to answer my specific questions. Keep in mind, I'm not an electrician or electrical engineer so hopefully I don't sound too dumb! 1. I'm using a DPDT with center off, mini-toggle 6a. Is this ok? the tortoise is designed for low current constant tension, shutting off the machine due to reverse tensions could cause it to "unthrow", generally you don't need a center off. 2. My understanding is that I CANNOT use the track bus from my Digitrax DCS100 (5a) to power my switch machine? (I'm not even yet to the understanding of powering my frogs yet...I have insulated frog turnouts for the most part...) you would need rectifiers (diodes) to make DC current as the DCC is AC current. Then you need a wirewound rheostat to reduce the voltage. 3. If I can use the track bus- will the voltage be higher than 12v? I have searched everywhere for the DCS100 output voltage, can't find it, and do not own a voltage meter. the DCC is about 18 volts 4. If I can't use the track bus- I need to use another power source- like an old DC throttle? I have an Athearn 0-16v DC throttle I could hook up and maybe leave at like 50-70% power? I like to keep my power sources separate so yeh its fine Edit: 5. If I forget to switch the DPDT back to Center Off, will that damage the Tortoise? No, the tortoise is designed for low current constant power on tension, pretty much required to keep it on. thanks in advance for your advice!
Click to expand...
read answers within the quotes.
 
Psapple83 said:
So, as you were saying to install the LED's, I would use option #3 on the tortoise install sheet? (I'm confused because option 3 uses SPDT)
Click to expand...
No, the LEDs are a different thing then the diodes shown in option #3 AC powered turnouts. The LEDs for signalling the turnouts direction can be used with any of the wiring solutions. I agree with the prior poster. Get the turnouts working first and understand how they are working, THEN think about installing LEDs.

The other prior poster introduced yet another idea. Using DCC stationary decoders to operate the turnouts. I don't like the idea, and have never used it myself, but that doesn't mean it couldn't be a good solution for you. Relatively expensive though. Especially compared to your $2 bag!

I'm using center off DPDT only because I got a bag of 50 of them used for $2 at the last train show- someone was taking apart their layout. I'll probably look to replace them if you guys say its best
Click to expand...
I installed tortoise motors with momentary contacts on our club layout one spring (April or May). It wasn't until Christmas time that actually I told anyone that the tortoise did not have constant power to them. In that entire time, no one noticed the difference and there was not a single instance of the turnout motor "relaxing" enough to cause the train to take a wrong route.
 
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I hooked one up to the center-off switch, and if I throw it to off just as it completes the throw, it does back off about 1mm. If I wait 3-4 seconds, its not a problem.
 
notabob said:
#1. You can, but a basic two position DPDT is better. As Ken said, you actually WANT to keep the current applied to a tortoise to make sure that it keeps pushing the points against the rails. Without power applied, the points may back off the rails slightly. The other benefit of keeping the current always on is that you can wire LEDs in-line with the motor leads to continuously indicate which way the switch is thrown.
#2 & #3. What JerryHensler said above.
4. You could use an old DC throttle, sure. That said, my personal preference is a basic 9-12V DC wall-wart supply that you no longer need. Tortoises draw very little current, so you can easily power up to a couple of dozen of them (along with associated LEDs) from a single .5A supply.
5. Per point #1 - no it will not. In fact, you will want power to always be on when running trains.
Click to expand...

I dug deep and found a wall wart with DC12v output (700mA). will that work sufficiently or will the load significantly reduce the ability to power all my turnouts? (approx 10-12 turnouts all said & done)
 
Psapple83 said:
I dug deep and found a wall wart with DC12v output (700mA). will that work sufficiently or will the load significantly reduce the ability to power all my turnouts? (approx 10-12 turnouts all said & done)
Click to expand...

700mA should be more than plenty for the 10-12 you got. If I recall, each tortoise draws about 15mA while moving and about 10mA while stalled at either end. At 700mA, you could theoretically do x5 the number of tortoises you got :)
 
The Digitrax DS54 is pretty cool and easy to set up and operate. Ya plug it into your loco net, run one pair of wires to your Tortoise machine and a second pair of wires to a momentary push button that you locate near the turnout, set the address of the DS54 and you're done. The turnout can be operated by a single momentary push button or you can access using your switch feature on your DT4xx series throttle. Ya push the switch button, then dial in the turnout number, then push one of the two buttons at the bottom center of the throttle for closed (C) or thrown (T). Ya hit exit to get out of the turnout mode. You can still control your train while in the switch mode too. It makes for an interesting operating feature. There is no soldering on the DS54 and if you use the edge connectors on the Tortoise, you don't have to solder there either. Only the push button will need a couple of solderings or if you can find one that is a clip on kind of application, you will be solder free.
 
Psapple83 said:
I hooked one up to the center-off switch, and if I throw it to off just as it completes the throw, it does back off about 1mm. If I wait 3-4 seconds, its not a problem.
Click to expand...
AH! Good. That brings up another point. On the club layout I connected our indication LEDs to the frog of the turnout. So the LED would not come on until the turnout was completely thrown (A side benefit of having hot frogs powered from the point rails). Because of habit from our prior screw drive turnout motors the operators would always hold the switch until the LED illuminated. Same effect of you holding for enough time to move the tortoise fully to one side or the other.
 
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