Why are the manufacturers and their designers SO LAME??

[Y3a]

I model the Norfolk & Western. With the exception of brass and Oriental Ltd's Y3's, all the rest of the available articulated engines are done like the 60 year old Rivarossi y6b! That design is basically a 4 axle diesel truck with cylinders and siderods. While they are OK on straight track, they look JUST LIKE TOYS going around curves. Oriental Ltd PROVED that the overhang and issues were non-existent with the Y class designs. The front end swings out like the prototype and does not hit the tunnel walls or other BS excuses the various manufactures have used. Lifelike's Y3 is hardly more than a rehash of the 1950's era Y6b. same for BLI's Y6b's and pretty much all the articulated engines. I have a Bowser Challenger which articulates correctly, again without clearance issues.

I'm getting sick of the BS and nonsense coming from the manufacturers as to how realistic and detailed their models are when they can't even pass the "looks correct when on a curve" test. Adding sound and other irritating 'features' doesn't make them more realistic. Heck, SOME manufacturers engines look like toys due to the wide silver tires and axle ends on engines that had black tires and axle ends (The N&W "J" comes to mind).

For the price they charge, you would think they could get the details correct, but most don't even consult historical societies or look closely at photos of the actual machines they are attempting to duplicate.

Is it because modelers have low standards, aren't that educated as to the real machines, or will just buy anything that's 'close'? The various manufactures must be laughing all the way to the bank! Just how sloppy and wrong do they have to be before it affects their bottom line?

 

[Guilford Guy9887]

Not that I diagree with the point your making, but I that you need to look at thing from there point of view. Steam engines are a complex piece of machinery, on make a completely correct model can't be easy with so few steam locomotives left. I own a few steam engines ( thou I'm no expert ) and I think they look fine on curves.

 

[SABRR]

You ask a very difficult question to answer in a simple statement.

A. Modelers are at fault. The skills to scratch build and kit bash were not passed down in sufficient quantities to sustain that market.

B. Culture demanded a better product. Quick and easy. Plug and play, box to tracks. Gotta have it now. Better be the best.

C. Manufacturer's have come a long way but have capitalized on (B) to make quick easy profits.

D. Manufacturer's are more focused on looks than performance. The body may be beautiful but the drive train isn't worth more than 2-4 years hard service. Which brings us back to (B) and (C), which feeds the limited production BS, to artificially keep the prices high.

I'm sure I missed some things, but I do here a lot of rumblings in the hobby, at least on the steam side, that folks are going back to building their own. However, it has not been enough yet to stem the tide of companies selling steam kits or detail parts from closing up. Time will tell whether the manufacturer's get the point and balance looks with performance. Right now, produced pieces are getting up to where the fallen price of brass is, and that could cause them a problem.

 

[Espeefan]

I model the Norfolk & Western. With the exception of brass and Oriental Ltd's Y3's, all the rest of the available articulated engines are done like the 60 year old Rivarossi y6b! That design is basically a 4 axle diesel truck with cylinders and siderods. While they are OK on straight track, they look JUST LIKE TOYS going around curves. Oriental Ltd PROVED that the overhang and issues were non-existent with the Y class designs. The front end swings out like the prototype and does not hit the tunnel walls or other BS excuses the various manufactures have used. Lifelike's Y3 is hardly more than a rehash of the 1950's era Y6b. same for BLI's Y6b's and pretty much all the articulated engines. I have a Bowser Challenger which articulates correctly, again without clearance issues.

This is because the vast majority of modelers are doing it on the old 4' x 8" piece of plywood with mostly 18" radius curves, and they want these models, so the manufacturers design them to go around curves the prototype never would have seen. Comprimises have to be made.

I'm getting sick of the BS and nonsense coming from the manufacturers as to how realistic and detailed their models are when they can't even pass the "looks correct when on a curve" test. Adding sound and other irritating 'features' doesn't make them more realistic. Heck, SOME manufacturers engines look like toys due to the wide silver tires and axle ends on engines that had black tires and axle ends (The N&W "J" comes to mind).

Those wide silver tires and oversized flanges are necessary for the models to operate on our track. Truly scale wheels and flanges would not work at all. When you reduce something to 1/87th of it's original size and want it to operate reliably, some trade-offs have to happen, unless you want a shelf queen. As for axle ends and tires, yep, I agree they should be black, but generally aren't, even on some expensive brass models. But then, that's why we have paint and paint brushes or air brushes. Add a few finishing touches yourself and make the model yours.

For the price they charge, you would think they could get the details correct, but most don't even consult historical societies or look closely at photos of the actual machines they are attempting to duplicate. .

And you think they don't because? I know of many instances where modelers have provided data and historical information to manufacturers. In the case of steam locomotives, there were often variations in appliances and piping from loco to loco in the same class, depending on what went through the shop when. You have to know what photos or information the manufacturer used before pronouncing a model "wrong".

Is it because modelers have low standards, aren't that educated as to the real machines, or will just buy anything that's 'close'? The various manufactures must be laughing all the way to the bank! Just how sloppy and wrong do they have to be before it affects their bottom line?

I think modelers these days have very high standards, and I think that manufactureres as a whole are bending over backwards to get us what we want. Are the models perfect? Not all the time. Do the manufacturers make mistakes sometimes? Yep. Are the models better than anything done so far? Most definitely! Excellent work for something that has to be mass produced.

If you want museum quality models of specific locomotives you have a number of choices:

Buy brass. This will solve your articulation issue, but you'll need access to a layout with at least a 30" minimum radius if you want to run your stuff. You also may encounter some errors in the models, because brass isn't always perfect either.

Be prepared to alter the models out of the box to match what you want, and have your prototype photos handy. Do a little modeling, or commission someone to do it for you.

If you don't like a particular model, don't buy it. In the end we all vote with our wallets. In the case of the Y-3 or Y-6, this won't be a problem, as they're sold out. You'd have to chase one down on e-bay or find one in a hobby shop somewhere.

I've talked with reps and execs from Athearn, Intermountain, Walthers, Bowser and others. I've found these people to be most interested in serious input and rational discussion from/with their customers. They don't react well to rants though. That's a good way to get yourself dismissed as one of the lunatic fringe. Maybe a little less anger? Just sayin...

 

[Selector]

Thanks for your efforts in replying, Alan. Ditto for me. It is market-driven. Nobody can, or wishes to, make their own, and we are willing in droves to spend up to $499 on whatever the latest articulated whiz-bang is that they shove out the factory door.

Personally, I am very happy with my Rivarossi H-8 and with my PCM Y6b. I am also extremely pleased with BLI's Paragon Q2 and with their earlier Paragon Duplex T1.


This hobby sells dreams and fantasy. Some people can "fill in the blanks" on sheets of plywood or on narrow shelves a whole 6 feet long. They are willing, and most pleased, to pay whatever they can to get something to help their idea of what the hobby should offer them. And the manufacturers do what they can and still live to the age of 85 after they have sent their kids off to school and seen them step into their own futures. They have to make a buck.

I will agree that it is too bad our better manufacturers have so many QA problems from the foreign factories. I know there have been some problems, but the only one I have had is with a faulty headlight on the Q2. I have had some things in for repair that I had used, including dropping the Y6b and needing some major repairs.

Not all of us have the luxury of large spaces and sweeping curves. And there'd be no market for scale models that could only run prototypically because that would mean we'd all have to adopt a minimum radius of about 70". It's unreasonable.

 

[Espeefan]

D. Manufacturer's are more focused on looks than performance. The body may be beautiful but the drive train isn't worth more than 2-4 years hard service. Which brings us back to (B) and (C), which feeds the limited production BS, to artificially keep the prices high.

I'm sure I missed some things, but I do here a lot of rumblings in the hobby, at least on the steam side, that folks are going back to building their own. However, it has not been enough yet to stem the tide of companies selling steam kits or detail parts from closing up. Time will tell whether the manufacturer's get the point and balance looks with performance. Right now, produced pieces are getting up to where the fallen price of brass is, and that could cause them a problem.

Couple of things:

First, as has been discussed elsewhere, I think we're having drive issues because of diecast bodies and gearing not designed for the vastly increased weight on some of the newer steamers. I think that this will be solved.

The "limited production BS" isn't done to "keep the prices artificially high". It has a lot more to do with plain old economics. These guys have to make a profit. Their inverstors and creditors all expect to get paid. Unit prices go down with larger runs of anything, but too many unsold models on the shelf or having to be blown out at cost will destroy the profit on any project. They're making a best guess of how many of a given model will sell and doing that many. The brass importers figured this out a long time ago, and these days if you don't make a reservation for a brass model, you aren't going to get one. Runs can be as small as 25 models.

Costs are going way up in China. That's also a reality that has to be dealt with.

On "The fallen price of brass": I'm seeing prices on used models trending upward, not falling. Older less detailed pieces can be had cheaply, and you can get a Balboa or Westside steamer that is nicely detailed for a good price these days, but you'll have to paint it, and if you also have to re-motor and want to add sound, your investment is going to exceed that of current plastic/diecast steamers.

 

[Espeefan]

Thanks for your efforts in replying, Alan. Ditto for me. It is market-driven. Nobody can, or wishes to, make their own, and we are willing in droves to spend up to $499 on whatever the latest articulated whiz-bang is that they shove out the factory door.

Personally, I am very happy with my Rivarossi H-8 and with my PCM Y6b. I am also extremely pleased with BLI's Paragon Q2 and with their earlier Paragon Duplex T1.

De Nada Crandell! Our club was given a PCM Y6b last year. We like it and have had no issues with it. There are also many member owned BLI & PCM models on our layout, and while they have not all been trouble free, the manufacturer has always taken care of any problems. Overall we've had positive experiences with them.

 

[fast_ian]

...B. Culture demanded a better product. Quick and easy. Plug and play, box to tracks. Gotta have it now. Better be the best.

+1 [Although I'd say a "different" rather than "better" product.]

As a *long* time modeler of everything from slot cars, RC, boats et al I find the LHS a pretty depressing place these days

I know I'm fortunate in still having a few really good stores near me, but almost *everything* they sell is now "ready to run", "no assembly required" etc. Good luck finding a good ol' fashioned balsa aircraft kit or a wooden boat kit. Damn things even include batteries!

Why? Obviously that's what the market wants - Instant gratification.

OTOH, and returning somewhat to the OP, the 'net has opened marketing possibilities for "mom & pop" shops to get the word out, worldwide, that they make *exactly* what you need - The specialist suppliers are at least "hanging on" (like most of us!) and things will hopefully improve. Darn, if one person wants it, worldwide, there's probably a market.........

Cheers,
Ian
PS - Having said all that, the *best* LHS (at least for RR'ing) close to me (they match prices etc) doesn't even possess a computer or even an electric cash register! Zero 'net presence. And they're *always* jammed with folk!

 

[fast_ian]

...Be prepared to alter the models out of the box to match what you want, and have your prototype photos handy. Do a little modeling.....

+1

No criticism of the OP intended, but if you want "x, y & z" to be correct in your eyes, do it yourself! [One persons museum piece is another's toy.....]

Some of the "super-detailing" some folk do *amazes* me! And the suppliers are out there - Google is your friend

Cheers,
Ian

 

[Y3a]

The worst articulated I've seen in the past 10 years is the "A" class from BLI. If they had spent the effort to look and examine at a correctly articulating brass model, the overhang of the boiler front compared to the BLI's cab overhang, they would have seen less with correct articulation.

As I pointed out before, the Oriental Ltd. Powerhouse series Y3 is correctly articulating, has no issues with the mechanics, and with a some user added details looks better than the Lifelike version. The rear engine just should not swing around.

Lets see if BLI can produce the Y6 and Y5 series as well. The Worthington BL series feedwater heater on the engineer side vs the SA used on the later Y6b's wouldn't cause clearance issues if they had articulated correctly. The plastic body details would be the same for Y6 and Y6a's and reverting to spoked wheels and inside bearings on the pony and trailer is about the only difference (and the splash guard on the pony truck as well). For the very picky, their is a difference in driver counterweight style..... The mechanics wouldn't need any modifications. Sure looks like a short sighted decision to me.

Northwest Short Lines gear boxes and drive train works great on all those brass articulated engines, and it's not like their products are a big secret.

Again, I think the manufacturers and their designers are the weak point. Lack of scope. Disinterest in the subject. BLI hosed up the 2nd run of the Y6b's as far as paint and specific details as to the engines they picked to model.

The modeler is to blame for asking for large engines that can go around his train board. They should realize their radius dictates what engines they can use. If I only had a 4x8 or even a 3x6 I would be using small power, or even (gasp!) Diesels.

Currently I use a 36" minimum radius, and even use super-elevation on the mainline. I have a 17' by 25' loft. I use code 83 everywhere. I use #8 turnouts on the mainline. Before I had this area, I used two 2' wide interior doors screwed together as a 2x16 foot test area for the engines I built, modified and super-detailed.

I used to build and detail the Bowser PRR 2-10-0's and 2-8-0's for friends and was given a Challenger by a less skilled modeler who had given up. I am also disappointed that so few people have any manual skills anymore. It has more to do with fear of failure and fear of asking for help. I worked at a local DC area hobby shop and did numerous seminars where I taught the attendees to successfully construct whatever Bowser kits they brought. When the parents have no skills, they have nothing to pass to their kids. Very sad.

John Armstrong's book "Track Planning for Realistic Operation" has some great ideas, and when you adopt his ideas you get into less problems with your track work. That is what needs to be as good as you can make it so your engines can perform properly.

 

[fast_ian]

No criticism of the OP intended, but if you want "x, y & z" to be correct in your eyes, do it yourself!

Phew - Sure glad I wrote that

The modeler is to blame for asking for large engines that can go around his train board. They should realize their radius dictates what engines they can use. If I only had a 4x8 or even a 3x6 I would be using small power, or even (gasp!) Diesels.

Currently I use a 36" minimum radius,

With respect, I'd therefore say you are not the target market of the "mainstream" manufacturers. I bet few here have the luxury of 36" radius (?)

Personally, in planning, I've just accepted 18", and am looking at 15" in a few places Sure, I know I can't run anything above a 44 tonner in there - But guess what? - That's exactly what I want to do

Am I to blame?.... They've got to compromise, and even the magazine reviews often note "runs OK on 18"..... Are they to blame? I'm not trying to argue btw, just an interesting debate!

Cheers,
Ian

 

[Y3a]

If you are limited to small radii, There is nothing wrong about double heading small steam or even a USRA 0-6-0. I used to have a "Switch Track Time saver" using #6 turnouts on my 2x16 layout that was on top on a row of book cases. My favorite small engine was Bowsers PRR H9. It would do a 15" radius, pulled lots, and with a Helix Humper aftermarket motor/gear added, was a great 'beater' loco.

 

[Y3a]

Back to the thrust of my OP....

The unrealistic articulation solution, and the reasons they claim it was done. Overhang and clearance issues. Lazy designers who are not very innovative who use a 60 year old solution, even when it has been demonstrated by Oriental Ltd back in the mid-1980's! Bowser showed that the Big Boy and Challenger didn't have overhang issues. BLI's "A" class is the WORST display of poor design.

 

[Espeefan]

The worst articulated I've seen in the past 10 years is the "A" class from BLI. If they had spent the effort to look and examine at a correctly articulating brass model, the overhang of the boiler front compared to the BLI's cab overhang, they would have seen less with correct articulation.

As I pointed out before, the Oriental Ltd. Powerhouse series Y3 is correctly articulating, has no issues with the mechanics, and with a some user added details looks better than the Lifelike version. The rear engine just should not swing around.

Well, the Oriental Limited Powerhouse series were still limited production and not really mainstream mass produced models. They were early Hybrids, mechanisms by Samhongsa, some white metal boilers (though in some cases brass boilers) and a lower detail level. Essentially "poor man's brass" if I remember the comparison used when they were being made. Something similar to Sunset Model's Prestige Series: brass construction, but low detail level, and relatively inexpensive. Though you are technically correct, you aren't really comparing apples to apples, as Oriental Limited was a niche manufacturer, not a mass producer like Athearn, BLI/PCM, etc.

The modeler is to blame for asking for large engines that can go around his train board. They should realize their radius dictates what engines they can use. If I only had a 4x8 or even a 3x6 I would be using small power, or even (gasp!) Diesels.

Well, though I can agree with you here having read many posts to the effect of: "how can I make my Santa Fe 4-8-4 go around 18" radii withoug derailing?" etc, and so on, good luck telling other people how they should spend their money. Let me know how you make out with that! I once was nearly thrown out of a hobby shop for advising a prospective buyer not to buy the UP big boy he was drooling over and instead to buy and double head a pair of 2-8-0's. Seems the shop owner didn't appreciate my input. The poor guy had 18" radius curves and at some point was probably not going to be happy with his decision, but he bought the Big Boy anyway. It was his money and his decision.

Currently I use a 36" minimum radius, and even use super-elevation on the mainline. I have a 17' by 25' loft. I use code 83 everywhere. I use #8 turnouts on the mainline. Before I had this area, I used two 2' wide interior doors screwed together as a 2x16 foot test area for the engines I built, modified and super-detailed.

I share your devotion to prototype, and myself have access to a club layout with a 48" minimum radius. I'm also fussy about what I will buy. That puts us in a small minority of the train buying public. An Athearn exec once told me that the foobies and basic modeling stuff paid the bills and made it possible for them to do the Genesis products for those with higher level tastes. So be it. We have Armstrong's book, and our libraries of prototype information, but there are many more who follow Allen McClelland's philosophy of "good enough" modeling, the three foot rule, or who just want to run trains and have fun. There's room for all in the hobby, and some of those "just have fun" types will evolve into fussy rivet counters

It still comes back to not buying it, or buying it and adding or swapping detail until it satisfies you.

I used to build and detail the Bowser PRR 2-10-0's and 2-8-0's for friends and was given a Challenger by a less skilled modeler who had given up. I am also disappointed that so few people have any manual skills anymore. It has more to do with fear of failure and fear of asking for help. I worked at a local DC area hobby shop and did numerous seminars where I taught the attendees to successfully construct whatever Bowser kits they brought. When the parents have no skills, they have nothing to pass to their kids. Very sad.

Maybe so, but times have also changed. We used to have a 40 hour work week. Now they're closer to 60 hours. Many, myself included, will buy RTR if it's close enough and save that valuable modeling time for our high priority projects. It has to be that way or the layout doesn't get built

 

[Y3a]

I don't think anyones layout is ever 'finished' ! LOL!

I have made model railroading a challenge to keep my skills up.

I do have brass. I think my roster is elsewhere on this board. I am stuck in the 1930's as so few folks model that era or do the research. I like the look, and the N&W Historical Society has great resources.

My only plastic engines are 2 BLI Y6b's and a Bachmann J and a Lifelike USRA 4-8-2. All but the 4-8-2 are out of scope as far as what I model.

I took advantage of all those who wanted to buy the LL Y3's when they came out and I bought their Powerhouse Y3's which I superdetailed and added DCC. I have 7 of them! The only other engine I have duplicates of are Sunset M class 4-8-0's. I rebuilt a horrid 2-6-6-2 Z1a which taught me about just how screwy brass can be, but after re-quartering the drivers and re-motoring it, it runs like a watch. Same for an equally horrid K3 4-8-2 which had some valve gear issues and needed a lot of weight added, which required more stiff springs in the frame. I havn't finished the M's or a W-2 2-8-0 from NWSL. It also had valve gear issues and I will need to completely rebuild that too.

For me, it is all about the engines. My layout is very simple with a small yard, several sidings and a 2 track mainline with 6 single direction flyovers. It is more for photography and to capture the look of the 1930's in south western VA. Lots of trees, dirt roads and wood frame buildings.

Here are a few samples of just how far along I am...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6iScOZrQ5yU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9kkl1-HmB8

Note the brass unpainted M class.

 

[Espeefan]

Nice stuff. I'd have liked to see it in color to better view the weathering on the articulateds.

I like the 4-8-0s. Though I'm an SP guy, N&W steam has it's own appeal. I've got a nice SP TW series 4-8-0 in my "to be painted" pile. It's hard to beat watching a steamer go through it's paces.

 

[Y3a]

SP had some wonder locos! The big 2-8-8-4 AC9's come to mind.. I got to see 4449 in the DC area when it was painted as one of the American Freedom Train engines. Mobile Fidelity records did some nice recordings of 4449 as well.

 

[Espeefan]

SP had some wonder locos! The big 2-8-8-4 AC9's come to mind.. I got to see 4449 in the DC area when it was painted as one of the American Freedom Train engines. Mobile Fidelity records did some nice recordings of 4449 as well.

I have an AC-9. It's an old Max Gray model, but I like it. I saw the 4449 here in Milwaukee last summer. The Tsunami heavy steam decoder does a reasonable reproduction.

 

[Selector]

Both man and wife work in many instances and they are both exhausted when they get home, even if both manage to slink away inside 40 hours. It is because the management of others has become so law-driven, insurance-driven, regulated, with policy books three inches deep in six volumes.

When people get home, some of them have kids and even other jobs to make ends meet. A few have discretionary income, some make it up in credit purchases. But putting together a kit of anything is not everyone's daily highlight. Some just want to suck on a brewski and watch a toy train run in circles, but at the same time they don't want to be reaching for it to fix this and that. They want it to look good and run well. Sometimes it is more cost-effective to let someone else do all the work and to pay for instant enjoyment. That's me. I don't have a spit of interest in constructing detailed models. I just want disassociation. But it has to be credible because of my personality. I can't stand silly TV programmes any more than I could stand a silly foobie in a locomotive. But I can tolerate some missing items or things out of place. By default, I purchase ready-to-run. If I want something that will work in the context I can provide reasonably, and more think like I do, it becomes a market. That is what pays the bacon for most of the manufacturers. I have other intense interests that are hands-on, but this is not for me. Just throw a switch and enjoy the sounds and motions.

I don't even enjoy building layouts. I know it is what comprises the best part of the hobby for many, but it is just a means to my "good enough" end of having a room I can walk into and marvel at my creation.

 

[bnsf971]

If a model manufacturer wants to sell an SP 4-8-8-2, they have a "break even" number they have to sell. Building the 4-8-8-2 with proper articulation, tread width, flange size, etc, would probably limit the operation of the model to 36" minimum radius, maybe even wider. Let's say the break even number is 3,000 models to sell them for $599 each. How many SP modelers have 36" radii on their home layouts? So, there aren't enough modelers to buy the models, and the model doesn't get built at all. But the model that didn't get built would have had all the proper articulation, etc. It would have been a nice model, but nobody could run it.
Now, rather than have such strict fidelity to the prototype, the model manufacturer can build the same engine with slightly taller flanges, double articulation, slightly wider wheel treads, and have a model that will snake around a 22" curve. It won't look good doing it, but the manufacturer just opened up their potential buyers by a factor of 10. If I had to guess, I'd say almost 75% of modelers have 22" curves, and the rest probably wouldn't want the engine anyway. Heck, I have 22" curves on my temporary 4x8 layout.
So, going that route, the engine gets built, looks good with the exception of the double articulation, and sells well enough the manufacturer can produce other projects, rather than sitting on 2,000 locomotives they can't sell because they are incapable of operating on 90% of home layouts.
Would I like a locomotive model that doesn't bend in the middle? Yes. I'd rather have a locomotive that bent in the middle than none at all, which is what I'd have if I insisted on correct articulation and other fine scale features.
And yes, I own one of those "horrible" BLI A's, and if you don't want yours, you can send it to me. I will put it to good use.