The new layout 2023

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rgeiter

rgeiter

Conrail Quality
Well, the basement is filled with model railroad tubs and shelving. I managed to save my old workbench and reassemble it too. But this layout is going to be much different than the last. Details on that soon. This is where I will be posting everything on the new layout. I might even do a few YouTube videos too. But first, I’m going to have to hang some drywall.☹️ Stay tuned. This is going to take a while.
 
Here is what I have to work with so far. I think I’ll have to completely start over. Here’s the real question. Open grid, table top with foam, or table top with cork roadbed like I have always done. The budget on this layout has been cut by 90% because of that darn thing called a mortgage! Oh boy!
IMG_6949.jpeg
 


Bob: Ya, know about mortgage. Doing what you already know will get trains running faster. Learning new will slow that a bit. For me, I see no reason to use 2x4's with 3/4" plywood as I do not need to hold up a truck. Even 1x4's are probably overkill. I am going with 1x2's. 2x2's and 1" foam on 12" centers using shelve brackets. My max width is 28" so I built a small section and stood on it elevated somewhat. From that, there was a tiny amount of bending, so I now laminate an 1/8" of plywood with the foam. At 210Lbs, there was no bending. An extra step although once you are setup for it, easy to do. Much cheaper than the other 2 choices above, and easier to get the product to the layout and work with it. Oh, and from what I have been reading on other forums, over time there is NO sag with the foam. You do need to paint the top and sides of the ply to help keep moisture at bay; the lamination seals stuff really good, so no worry there. And, unfortunately cork roadbed is probably your only choice. Since I am laying my own rail, I have been wanting to play with foam cut at 1/4" and beveled like cork. Summer and house projects have gotten in the way. Everybody is now gluing everything down; including ties and rail, no track nails; experiment on that is necessary with the foam. More on that later.

Have fun!

Later
 
rgeiter said:
Here is what I have to work with so far. I think I’ll have to completely start over. Here’s the real question. Open grid, table top with foam, or table top with cork roadbed like I have always done.
Click to expand...
The answer is in the question behind the question, Are you going to be wanting grades and overpasses, and below grade scenery with bridges or are you satisfied and happy with flat scenery? Table top is the easiest, but you are essentially stuck with a plywood prairie and bread loaf mountains (exaggerating to make the point). The addition of foam adds great opportunities to carve out some rivers under the flat track and do some nice gentle slopes and grades, that is unless you run like 4 layers of foam for deep valleys. So that leaves open grid which is by far the most time consuming and difficult. Getting the roadbed and track base is the easier part, but they you have to go back and make all those supports for scenery be it foam or wire mesh or burlap or whatever and structure bases.

So the trade offs are: 1. time, where open grid by far consumes the most. 2. cost, depends on materials used, but the foam on table can actually be the most costly. AND 3. and most importantly, what end effect do you desire or aspire to. Open grid will have most options, table top will have fewest. All this assumes from ground zero. You said you had old bench work and from later comments I assume it is table top, so that would make that option the cheapest.

With as much space as you have nothing says different sections can't be different construction. Maybe start with the old bench work due to budget and change over final construction as $ permit?
 
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Currently deciding what height the new layout should be. My old layout was 40” high. Since this is going to be two levels, I need to figure out the height of the second level. Without measuring, so far, I thinking that the first level will be at waist height and second level at chin height. The second level will probably be the same depth as the first level which I’m thinking 3 feet deep. I’m also thinking that my helixes will be oval instead of circular.
What say you guys?
 
rgeiter said:
Currently deciding what height the new layout should be. My old layout was 40” high. Since this is going to be two levels, I need to figure out the height of the second level. Without measuring, so far, I thinking that the first level will be at waist height and second level at chin height. The second level will probably be the same depth as the first level which I’m thinking 3 feet deep. I’m also thinking that my helixes will be oval instead of circular.
What say you guys?
Click to expand...
Bob: The upper level 3ft deep at chin level is gonna be a PITA to do either maintanence, re-railing rolling stuff, or switching manual switches. Well, at least for me ( 5'10" ) it would be. I know wider is better, but consider this: If top level is not as wide as your bottom level, and you are leaning into that top level to do something, you waist line is now cleaning off the bottom level near the edge. Hmmm, maybe that is a good thing?

Later
 
rgeiter said:
Currently deciding what height the new layout should be. My old layout was 40” high. Since this is going to be two levels, I need to figure out the height of the second level. Without measuring, so far, I thinking that the first level will be at waist height and second level at chin height. The second level will probably be the same depth as the first level which I’m thinking 3 feet deep. I’m also thinking that my helixes will be oval instead of circular.
What say you guys?
Click to expand...
Yes on the oval helixes. You can get a much lower gradient that way. Why go with 30" on the helix radius, I would go for 34" or 35" on an outer loop, it will fit easily. As Todd posted, 3' reach on the upper level will be a real issue, even 3' on a lower level can and will be an issue. I would stick with a maximum of 32". As far as height, I am 5'4", so my lower level is at 36" and my upper level is 52". Approximately waist and chin for me. The 36" on the lower level enables grandkids, maybe kids for you, to see and operate on that level, although that fascination doesn't seem to last as long as a cell phone or tablet.
I am "old school" and I model "flatlands USA", so I have no grades and 1/2" plywood on a 1"x 4" framework works well for me. Legs along the aisle are recessed 7" to allow for human foot clearance. The other side is attached to the wall. I also use cork roadbed, HO scale for main lines, N scale for passing sidings and "cereal box" thickness cardboard for industrial trackage and staging areas. Again, being "old school", I use track nails; which when painted along with the ties, are practically invisible. I also use code 100 track, because over the years it was less expensive than code 83 and I can't tell the difference. Cost may not be a factor any more.
You have a good area to work with and the benchwork design is good except for the 3' reach. I am looking forward to your progress.
 
Good timing as I just on 7/3 decided where my new layout will reside. In the lower level of the house. Looking forward to following along.

My suggestions are going to echo some of the above comments. Model railroaders greatly over build their benchwork. I suggest though whatever lumber you have from the previous layout use it as much as possible and build the type of framework you did previously. If going with a 2nd level, I find a 16” difference from rail head to rail head looks best to me. The second level does not need to be as deep as the main level. Experiment with that. Most multi level layouts I have operated on the top level is 1/2 the depth of the 1st level. You will get lots of suggestions on how to do the second level. Tony Koester has a great book on multi level layouts, if you don’t have It I will happily send you my copy.

Get trains running ASAP especially since your budget is tighter. Start with the 1st level and build it to run, point to point is better than nothing. The second level can come later.

Remember while we have ALL the answers as a group, build it the way u are most comfortable with. But most of all have FUN!
 
I was wondering if 3’ was pushing it. I watched a few videos last night and it seems 2’ is the more popular depth. All my current layout sections are 2’ deep so I might as well keep them
Thanks for all the input. Still a long way from building. And yes, I will be building the lower level first, get the track laid and established and then figure out what to do with the second level.

Also, I’m thinking of doing something else “new” to me. I’m floating the idea of installing block detection.

I’m also probably going to switch over to electric switch machines. Going to see what’s out there first. The tortoise machines are at the top of the list. If there is something cheaper and has contacts for signaling, I’ll consider it.
 
Bob: Glad you are reconsidering shelve widths. I set up some test shelves just to see what I could reach. Found that for me 28" is good. My 1st level is 36" from floor, 2nd is 56". I chose the 20" rise as the middle blob of the layout is more or less transition between the two levels and there are spots where RoW has another RoW 8" above/below. I am not fully sure that I can pack the transitions in 28" shelves and have it not look like spaghetti. Time will tell on that one.

Helix: Since I have room, I decided on a oval type. I am setting it up with staging, so the inside track is 30", - heck, pix is worth a 1000 words:
HelixCalcs.jpg

This is Open Office - L2L is one loop. I don't know where else you could put 25 staged trains in ~52 square feet. I did play with this making the Separation 5" with 4 Levels, but that got the Grade above 1.5% which probably would work, I just wanted to stay on the safe side.

Block Detection: This looks to be pretty simple. Current detectors on each Main/Branch block and Control Point, with IR emitters/detectors in each Control Point turnout. Means that every train has an EoT device or rear power. I want more or less real signaling - CTC over APB for the mains, ABS for the branch lines. I have started to break up the track plan with 22ft minimum sidings and intermediate blocks. If I remember correctly, I have 8 sidings on the Main, and have not set up any so far on the Branch lines. So that is 16 Control points on the Main, and at least 64 signal heads; not including any Advance aspects. Aspects for this railroad are pretty much what the 1:1 does in this area: Red, Yellow, Flashing Yellow, Green and Dark. I have not found anything to buy off the shelve that does what I want and from what I have seen so far are $$$. So I am the process of rolling my own using Atmel/Microchip devices. I did look at Arduino's which are cheap, and since I would have to write code anyhow, went with Atmel/Microchip as they have more options with internal workings.

Turnout Control: I have decided that only Main and Branches have remote control. Any yard/house/industrial tracks can be operated lineside. I bought a bunch of Tortoise machines years ago and thought them spendy at that time. Now days - geesh. Have been looking at servo's for doing the control - much much cheaper. Most have 'limit' switches/points that can be used for turnout position so those may work good.

This stuff will keep you busy for *years* - have fun!

Later
 
ctclibby said:
Bob: Glad you are reconsidering shelve widths. I set up some test shelves just to see what I could reach. Found that for me 28" is good. My 1st level is 36" from floor, 2nd is 56". I chose the 20" rise as the middle blob of the layout is more or less transition between the two levels and there are spots where RoW has another RoW 8" above/below. I am not fully sure that I can pack the transitions in 28" shelves and have it not look like spaghetti. Time will tell on that one.

Helix: Since I have room, I decided on a oval type. I am setting it up with staging, so the inside track is 30", - heck, pix is worth a 1000 words:
View attachment 171186
This is Open Office - L2L is one loop. I don't know where else you could put 25 staged trains in ~52 square feet. I did play with this making the Separation 5" with 4 Levels, but that got the Grade above 1.5% which probably would work, I just wanted to stay on the safe side.

Block Detection: This looks to be pretty simple. Current detectors on each Main/Branch block and Control Point, with IR emitters/detectors in each Control Point turnout. Means that every train has an EoT device or rear power. I want more or less real signaling - CTC over APB for the mains, ABS for the branch lines. I have started to break up the track plan with 22ft minimum sidings and intermediate blocks. If I remember correctly, I have 8 sidings on the Main, and have not set up any so far on the Branch lines. So that is 16 Control points on the Main, and at least 64 signal heads; not including any Advance aspects. Aspects for this railroad are pretty much what the 1:1 does in this area: Red, Yellow, Flashing Yellow, Green and Dark. I have not found anything to buy off the shelve that does what I want and from what I have seen so far are $$$. So I am the process of rolling my own using Atmel/Microchip devices. I did look at Arduino's which are cheap, and since I would have to write code anyhow, went with Atmel/Microchip as they have more options with internal workings.

Turnout Control: I have decided that only Main and Branches have remote control. Any yard/house/industrial tracks can be operated lineside. I bought a bunch of Tortoise machines years ago and thought them spendy at that time. Now days - geesh. Have been looking at servo's for doing the control - much much cheaper. Most have 'limit' switches/points that can be used for turnout position so those may work good.

This stuff will keep you busy for *years* - have fun!

Later
Click to expand...
I’m with you on the turnout controls. The mains were always remote on all of my layouts. Hand throws everywhere else. (Except where I couldn’t reach.)

I’m undecided on how I want to utilize track detection. I’ll probably look and see what Digitrax has to offer. But that’s waaaaaay down the road.
 
ctclibby said:
Red, Yellow, Flashing Yellow, Green and Dark. I have not found anything to buy off the shelve that does what I want and from what I have seen so far are $$$.
Click to expand...
Try this guy, I've used him for the last 4 years for all my signal's lights etc. never had an issue. This is his UK but you'll find him on Fleabay in the US.

Security measure

www.ebay.co.uk www.ebay.co.uk

These guy's may be able to help with your IR detection as well.

BLOCKsignalling

BLOCKsignalling is a manufacturer of model railway electronic modules based in the UK.
blocksignalling.co.uk blocksignalling.co.uk
 


Smudge617 said:
Try this guy, I've used him for the last 4 years for all my signal's lights etc. never had an issue. This is his UK but you'll find him on Fleabay in the US.

Security measure

www.ebay.co.uk www.ebay.co.uk

These guy's may be able to help with your IR detection as well.

BLOCKsignalling

BLOCKsignalling is a manufacturer of model railway electronic modules based in the UK.
blocksignalling.co.uk blocksignalling.co.uk
Click to expand...
Have to definitely agree with Chris about WeHonest. I operate on a few layouts that are fully blocked and signaled. 3 use the signals from WeHonest and they look as good as the stuff from BLMA/ATLAS or NJ International used on the other layouts.
 
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