Thank you for the welcome, please come on a journey with me :)


M

Mari

New Member
I am a miniaturist, but I am new to model railroading. I have in mind a recreation of part of my family history
This will be a journey into a past time and family for me , I would love to have help with this.

I am researching The Cummer Lumber Company of Jacksonville, Florida and the railroad that they built to be used to haul lumber in Florida, it also served as a passenger line.

My great great uncle was Wellington W Cummer, the founder of the company and builder of the railroad.
It later became the Jackonville and Southwest Railroad until taken over by the Atlantic Coast Line Railroad
In 1904. The line is now defunct and some of it has been a part of the rails to trails program.

I understand that they used for the most part Baldwin steam engines for the heavy work. I would like to start there , I have no clue if that engine is made in model form or if I can even aquire one. If anyone has any information on that I would sure appreciate the help.

Thanks so much !
 
Hi Mari. Your prototype sounds really cool. I wonder if there are any photos of the Baldwins? Apparently Porter tank locos were used too.


http://www.leesburgsunriserotary.org/cummer.html


Here's some pics I found after a google search:


http://www.floridamemory.com/items/show/146925

Looks like a 0-4-4 'Forney'. Cool! But is it the right lumber railroad?



OK, so that shows us what to aim for. Some practical questions now. What scale and what time period do you want to model? How close to the real thing do you want to go?


http://www.rgusrail.com/flwwcummer7.html

Here's another. A small 2-6-0 'mogul'.


http://www.leesburgsunriserotary.org/projects.html

#104 is preserved. A 2-6-2 'prairie'.
 
Hi Paul,
Thanks for the links , some of those are better pics then I found :) Yes it is the Cummer railroad.
The time period is around 1945 around that time the railroad was active. I am thinking probably HO scale
as it may be more available in that scale. Though I dont really know. I am looking for the 104 I think, in model
scale. Again I have no idea where to find it , I thought later on I want to add the porter too. This is going to be a
lengthy project I think, I am in the process of gathering more family history and pictures that I will need to attempt
to recreate a piece of the railroad and perhaps the lumber yards that were in Lachoochie Florida. Not to mention
that the town was virtually built by the company to house its workers.
I am a miniaturist that builds miniature furniture so i am capable of building exact recreations of the buildings if I can
find photos good enough to go by.
I think I have a rather daunting project ahead LOL.
Thanks for your reply and i appreciate any help with this !
 
Mari said:
Hi Paul,
Thanks for the links , some of those are better pics then I found :) Yes it is the Cummer railroad.
The time period is around 1945 around that time the railroad was active. I am thinking probably HO scale
as it may be more available in that scale. Though I dont really know. I am looking for the 104 I think, in model
scale. Again I have no idea where to find it , I thought later on I want to add the porter too. This is going to be a
lengthy project I think, I am in the process of gathering more family history and pictures that I will need to attempt
to recreate a piece of the railroad and perhaps the lumber yards that were in Lachoochie Florida. Not to mention
that the town was virtually built by the company to house its workers.
I am a miniaturist that builds miniature furniture so i am capable of building exact recreations of the buildings if I can
find photos good enough to go by.
I think I have a rather daunting project ahead LOL.
Thanks for your reply and i appreciate any help with this !
Click to expand...


Seems you will have no problem getting the buildings spot on.

In model form we most often need some 'seclective compression' to fit in the salient features of a railroad into our model layout. Few prototypes can be covered 'foot for foot' in model form. The idea is to catch the character and important operational features.

So two comcepts to discuss with others in the forum:

1/ selective compression in layout design

2/ operation of a model layout



OK, so 104 in model form. I suspect an accurate model would have to be 'scratch built' (fabricated from basic materials). There might possibly be a brass import that comes close and could be 'kitbashed' (modifying another model). However the easiest and cheapest solution would be to go for a plastic model that is generally representative, a standing in if you like. Bachmann makes a cheap 2-6-2 which might do for starters. It isn't from they top shelf range, so I can't vouch for it's quality. Their Spectrum range steamers are quite good. I wonder what they might have there that you could use as a stand in? The 2-6-0 perhaps?


[edit] The Bachmann engines look too modern. Maybe Roundhouse would be better?

2-6-0 Out of production at present and the drive wheels are too big:

http://www.athearn.com/Search/Default.aspx?SearchTerm=2-6-0&CatID=THLS&OA=True


2-8-0 Gives a better impresion even though it is the wrong wheel arrangment. Out of production but this might be a suitable choice as a stand in.

http://www.athearn.com/Search/Default.aspx?SearchTerm=2-8-0&CatID=THLS&OA=True


4-4-0 A Bachmann Spectrum model. It is not close but also gives the right impression. Bachmann also made 4-6-0 which had the right look. The 2-6-0 might be a bit modern but wouldn't be out of place on a mid 20th centruy lumber shortline.


http://shop.bachmanntrains.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=755_820_825_831
 
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Paul thank you so much for taking the time to look for me. I do appreciate it. I will spend some time looking at the links today. I had anticipated that it would be difficult to find these engines. I am not quite ready to try to kit bash one yet so I hope i can find the closest thing to what was used either in porter or baldwin.
I am not familiar with the term selective compression, I am assuming that you mean reducing space in a selective manner to be able to fit the layout on a base? As a miniaturist I understand this concept quite well, as for the buildings , I will post one pic for you just for fun.

pchest2.jpgAs long as the buildings dont need to be much smaller then this I can get a lot of
detail in them. It has been quite some time since I looked at a train set though, but if necessary I can go to a larger layout . I will have space to do this in the house that I am moving too soon. And then again I
dont expect to do actual working doors on the train set like you see in this picture.
Again, thank you for your help!
 
Perhaps you can tell me too, I generally work in 1/12th scale , but the picture I posted was done in 1/2 scale meaning of course that 1/2" represents 1 foot. Do you happen to know what ho is in terms of scale?
Thanks!
 
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Mari said:
Perhaps you can tell me too, I generally work in 1/12th scale , but the picture I posted was done in 1/2 scale meaning of course that 1/2" represents 1 foot. Do you happen to know what ho is in terms of scale?
Thanks!
Click to expand...


HO is 1:87, 3.5mm to the foot (roughly 1/8 inch to the foot).
 
Thanks Paul,that is small, I can do it , it is more of a challenge but it can still be done
to recreate as close as possible copies of buildings in that scale
Doing more research I am finding that the railroad had several different kinds of engines running
including a 2-6-2 Prairie that is still sitting in a park about an hour from me , I will have to go take a
look , shame it has not been well preserved but it is there. I find Bachman still produces this model
but I dont know how good their engines are . I am not looking for a really expensive engine to start with
but I want it to be basically trouble free
Any thoughts on this ? Thanks!!
 
Mari said:
Thanks Paul,that is small, I can do it , it is more of a challenge but it can still be done
to recreate as close as possible copies of buildings in that scale
Doing more research I am finding that the railroad had several different kinds of engines running
including a 2-6-2 Prairie that is still sitting in a park about an hour from me , I will have to go take a
look , shame it has not been well preserved but it is there. I find Bachman still produces this model
but I dont know how good their engines are . I am not looking for a really expensive engine to start with
but I want it to be basically trouble free
Any thoughts on this ? Thanks!!
Click to expand...



The next popular scale up from HO is O scale (USA = 1:48, 6.5mm to the foot).


As it happens Bachmann makes old steamers for O scale narrow gage. Some of these are very close to your prototype other than running on a tighter gage. I wonder if you could use a bit of 'modellers licence' (a specific varient of 'artist's licence' often invoked by creative modelers) and model your prototype as though it had been narrow gage?

http://shop.bachmanntrains.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=755_789_791



Now, if you are OK with modeler's licence, and OK with the idea of a narrow gage, then have a look at 55n3 (1:55 scale, 5.5mm to the fooot) narrow gage representing 3 foot gage but using On30 Bachmann equipment (with people and structures to a slightly smaller scale).


Have a read of this site and see what you think:

http://www.55n3.org/
 
Hi Paul, yes I am open to using Artistic lisence that comes rather naturally being an artist myself lol. There are some neat looking engines in those you posted. The narrow gauge looks interesting too, I really wish I knew more about all this . I am
learning though . I did find a pdf about the history of the company and lists the actual engines owned by the company when it was sold but I cant attach that here , I can copy and paste just the list though

Jacksonville & Southwestern Locomotives
The existing records of the J&S motive power came from the Atlantic Coast Line RR list, showing the locomotives
from the predecessor company in the purchase of 1904, as follows:
J&S ACL
No. Builder C/N Date Type Cyls. DD No. From
5 Pittsburg 573 1882 0-6-0 18x26 44 148 Allegheny Valley #5
21 Baldwin 4800 1879 4-4-0 16x24 63 477 Shenandoah Valley #2
22 Baldwin 5335 1880 4-6-0 18x24 50 249 Shenandoah Valley #24
23 Baldwin 8355 1887 4-4-0 17x24 63 543 Wichita & Western #7
24 Baldwin 8243 1886 4-4-0 17x24 63 541 Wichita & Western #4
25 Baldwin 8344 1887 4-4-0 17x24 63 544 Wichita & Western #6
26 Baldwin 8242 1886 4-4-0 17x24 63 542 Wichita & Western #3
27 Baldwin 18726 1901 4-6-0 18x24 54 269 New
The sons and son-in-law of Wellington Cummer were listed in the Jacksonville City Directories as being officers of the
railroad, its office was on the third floor of the newly built Dyal-Upchurch building, one of the first masonry buildings built
after Jacksonville’s great fire of May 3, 1901. The Cummer Museum of Arts & Gardens was established in 1958 by Ninah
Cummer. Her husband, Arthur Gerrish Cummer was Wellington’s son.
Eventually the railroad was sold in 1903 to C. W. Chase, and he in turn sold it a short while later to the Atlantic Coast

I see the 440 listed in the bachman link you posted but they are all different?
I think I am getting a bit lost here , only because I have no idea what i am looking at .
 
Oh Ok. I am using too much jargon. My appologies.

The code "4-4-0" described the locomotive's wheel arrangment.

The first '4' refers to four wheels on the leading truck (pony truck). The second four refers to the number of driving wheels. The '0' refers to the number of trailing wheels (in this case none). Wheels under the tender aren't counted.

Diesels and geared steam, such as shays, use a different system. Also the Europeans have a number of different systems for describing locos by wheel arrangement.

Here's a link the the 'Whyte' system widely used in the english speaking world:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whyte_notation


Finally, it is traditional practice in the USA to use a name for a particular wheel arrangement.

EG:

4-4-0 = American

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wheel_arrangement
 
Thank you Paul, that does make it a bit clearer.

Now I am wondering how one determines just which 440 is which. Since it looks like there were different engines with that same wheel configuration.

If I were to take this one ,......26 Baldwin 8242 1886 4-4-0 17x24 63 542 Wichita & Western #3
and compare it to this one ,....21 Baldwin 4800 1879 4-4-0 16x24 63 477 Shenandoah Valley #2

I see that there is a difference in some of the numbers , but I really dont know what that means or if it affected the appearance or function of the engine. Also why is one called Wichita & Western and one Shenandoah Valley?
 
Mari said:
Thank you Paul, that does make it a bit clearer.

Now I am wondering how one determines just which 440 is which. Since it looks like there were different engines with that same wheel configuration.

If I were to take this one ,......26 Baldwin 8242 1886 4-4-0 17x24 63 542 Wichita & Western #3
and compare it to this one ,....21 Baldwin 4800 1879 4-4-0 16x24 63 477 Shenandoah Valley #2

I see that there is a difference in some of the numbers , but I really dont know what that means or if it affected the appearance or function of the engine. Also why is one called Wichita & Western and one Shenandoah Valley?
Click to expand...

Where did you get this loco data from?


26 ?not sure? Baldwin builder 8242 ?possibly builder's number? 1886 year built 4-4-0 wheel arrangement

17x24 cylinder diameter (inches) by stroke (inches) 63 most likely driving wheel diameter (inches) 542 ?not

sure-possibly area of heating surface (square feet)? Wichita & Western railroad name #3 railroad number


Edit: I should add that this data would tell a steam era engineer how the engine will preform. He can see the cyclinder size and power, driving wheel size, and the amount of steam evapourated, so he can calculate the power of the loco. In this case we are looking at a small, weak but fast loco.

The two locos listed wouldn't look all that different, I believe. Same maker, only a few years between them, same wheel arrangment. The second loco is slightly less powerful but not much to choose between them.
 
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http://www.rlhssec.org/newsletters.htm
It is the April 2021 newsletter. in PDF form so I cant post a direct link to it .

You may find the article interesting , or the other articles listed there too. The more I dig the more I find that
My uncle had numerous locos. I guess I will attempt to narrow my choice by time frame at this point . Some of the links you provided may be just the thing for what I want to do. Small weak locos seems strange for the lumbering business, but towards the end they were in to phosphate and even ran passengers I think. It seems I have a lot to learn still
This list is ones that were sold when the railroad was sold off.
 
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Mari said:
http://www.rlhssec.org/newsletters.htm
It is the April 2021 newsletter. in PDF form so I cant post a direct link to it .

You may find the article interesting , or the other articles listed there too. The more I dig the more I find that
My uncle had numerous locos. I guess I will attempt to narrow my choice by time frame at this point . Some of the links you provided may be just the thing for what I want to do. Small weak locos seems strange for the lumbering business, but towards the end they were in to phosphate and even ran passengers I think. It seems I have a lot to learn still
This list is ones that were sold when the railroad was sold off.
Click to expand...


Ah, found it. OK, the first number (26) is the road number for the J&S. 542 refers the the Atlantic Coast Line number. So that resloved the two I wasn't sure about.


By 'small and weak' I mean compared with other steam engines. So a UP 'bigboy' would be large and strong. The locos are still plenty strong enough for logging work.
 
I'm sorry to take so long to answer your post Paul I do appreciate the information. I have been a bit busy lately. I have been researching the actual road lines for the original railroad . Some of them do still exist while others have been taken over by the rails to trails program or just lost altogether. I really need to take a trip to Jacksonville to see the origination sites and perhaps to Dade city where they ended . That should keep me busy for a while LOL> I will be moving in the next few months to where I have space for a bigger layout so I wont build until then. However If i know what I am looking for I can begin to assemble materials for it . Do you have any recommendations for materials suppliers ? Mostly landscaping I think because the wood I have sources for . Thanks for taking the time to help .
 
Mari said:
I'm sorry to take so long to answer your post Paul I do appreciate the information. I have been a bit busy lately. I have been researching the actual road lines for the original railroad . Some of them do still exist while others have been taken over by the rails to trails program or just lost altogether. I really need to take a trip to Jacksonville to see the origination sites and perhaps to Dade city where they ended . That should keep me busy for a while LOL> I will be moving in the next few months to where I have space for a bigger layout so I wont build until then. However If i know what I am looking for I can begin to assemble materials for it . Do you have any recommendations for materials suppliers ? Mostly landscaping I think because the wood I have sources for . Thanks for taking the time to help .
Click to expand...


No problem. It is an unavoidable fact of life that we can't do toy trains 24/7.:D


I don't have any reconmendations about suppliers. Maybe one of the guys down Florida way can help you there?
 
I will have to try to find something . It seems that there are no local model train hobby stores here in the area. There are some model train clubs but they are about an hour from me in all directions lol. Time for a road trip or two perhaps :)
 
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