ScaleTrains "Big Blow" beware

[MikeOwnby]

The ScaleTrains website, in its description, seems to indicate that the non-sound N-scale Big Blow Turbine still at least has DCC functionality. I just learned that it DOES NOT. If you buy the non-sound version, you are getting a purely DC version that has no easily dropped-in decoder, even though they claim it is DCC ready. Just a warning to anybody who, like myself, got the wrong idea from the way they outlined things on their website.

 

[tootnkumin]

DCC ready, unless it states that it is NMRA 8 pin compliant, or like Athearn's 9 pin "Quick Plug" capable (which has both), generally should be taken to mean that the motor and pickup wiring have been isolated/insulated from the frame and may need hard wiring (soldering) of any decoder. It also does not mean that a loco is necessarily capable of accepting a sound decoder and there may be no allowance to easily fit a speaker.

Walthers Proto locomotives are like this, they now classify theirs as "With Sound" or as "Standard DC". The sound equipped have a quite substantially different chassis to the Standard DC types, which have just their earlier DC/DCC 8 pin, ready chassis' in them. I notice they also now have the 9 pin option as well as 8 pin.

 

[Sirfoldalot]

WOW .. That's some pretty important information, and I'm not "N" scale .. but, Thanks anyway!

 

[D&J RailRoad]

It's amazing what advertising can get away with.

 

[Iron Horseman]

they claim it is DCC ready.

There is no agreed upon definition of what DCC ready means, so one would have to ask a specific vendor what it means to them. Usually it just means that the motor is isolated from the frame, and can mean the frame is not "hot" at all.

Good warning. I wish someone would start a web site that lists this sort of information we could refer people to.

 

[MikeOwnby]

There is no agreed upon definition of what DCC ready means, so one would have to ask a specific vendor what it means to them. Usually it just means that the motor is isolated from the frame, and can mean the frame is not "hot" at all.

Good warning. I wish someone would start a web site that lists this sort of information we could refer people to.

Yeah, should have clarified that more. What I meant is that no DCC vendor lists a drop-in board that I've found, so while it may be DCC ready, there's no way to determine what that entails. I did eventually call and talk to them, but the woman in sales didn't have the info I needed, and the person who did was apparently on a plane and unreachable. There MAY be a board that drops in and nobody's listing it, it may take the DZ126IN plug type, or it may have to be hard-wired with a plain DZ126. How much work and expertise any of those entail is also a question. I recently tried to repair a pickup wire that was defective on a Broadway Limited loco and it was such a spaghetti mess that there was no way I was going to dig into that. It got sent back under warranty instead, and even THEY didn't try to repair it and sent me a replacement instead. That's the sort of thing I DON'T want to find out after this ScaleTrains loco arrives. They're supposed to get back to me soon and let me know exactly what's up. I'd initially told them to cancel my pre-order, but I've since decided to hang on and at least see what's involved with putting in a decoder. I just don't think I'm willing to pay another $150 for sound when all I want is DCC functionality, and they REALLY need to clean up their website description to make clear that the non-sound version is purely DC. They separate out the sound features from the DCC features, and it makes it sound like the non-sound model is still DCC.

 

[NP2626]

Yeah, should have clarified that more. What I meant is that no DCC vendor lists a drop-in board that I've found, so while it may be DCC ready, there's no way to determine what that entails. I did eventually call and talk to them, but the woman in sales didn't have the info I needed, and the person who did was apparently on a plane and unreachable. There MAY be a board that drops in and nobody's listing it, it may take the DZ126IN plug type, or it may have to be hard-wired with a plain DZ126. How much work and expertise any of those entail is also a question. I recently tried to repair a pickup wire that was defective on a Broadway Limited loco and it was such a spaghetti mess that there was no way I was going to dig into that. It got sent back under warranty instead, and even THEY didn't try to repair it and sent me a replacement instead. That's the sort of thing I DON'T want to find out after this ScaleTrains loco arrives. They're supposed to get back to me soon and let me know exactly what's up. I'd initially told them to cancel my pre-order, but I've since decided to hang on and at least see what's involved with putting in a decoder. I just don't think I'm willing to pay another $150 for sound when all I want is DCC functionality, and they REALLY need to clean up their website description to make clear that the non-sound version is purely DC. They separate out the sound features from the DCC features, and it makes it sound like the non-sound model is still DCC.

First of all, I strongly recommend communication with the producer! It's their product and they should be interested in what you have to say, as you seem interested in buying their product. I think every locomotive manufactured should be produced in three versions: DCC Ready, DCC and finally, DCC and sound. This seems like a pretty simple task to me. If you design for DCC and sound; but, put a light board in for DC operation and make it easy for a buyer to pop the board out and replace with his own DCC; or, DCC and Sound set-up. By doing this, they provide an option for every modeler in the world: those who want to run DC, those who want DCC and sound, off the shelf, and those who want to select there own DCC and/or DCC and Sound system. Personally, as a person who's entire adult life was involved in the manufacturing processes, I don't understand why model railroad product producers don't see this as the best way to market their products! A versatile product will outsell un-versatile products, it's simple logic!

O.K. devils advocates, let's hear it!

 

[riogrande]

It's amazing what advertising can get away with.

I don't think ST is trying to "get away" with anything. Don't be so cynical and give them the benefit of the doubt, just the way you would like to be treated I'd wager.

Agree with Mark. If the website info isn't clear, then please let the folks know at ScaleTrains. Shane and Paul et al. are of the highest character and I do not believe they would intentionally mislead the customers. If something is confusing or misleading, it could be edited to make sure readers have a better description.

Please contact ScaleTrains and explain why you believed their N-scale big blow without sound had DCC function out-of-the-box and if you have a suggestion as to how they may make the description more user friendly to novices.

FYI, most HO engines (my scale) which have decoder plugs in them, but no DCC decoder, are advertised as "DCC ready". That's pretty standard for some years. If ST advertised their N-scale engines as "DCC ready" then that would definitely mean to me, and most others that there is no DCC decoder in the engine. Heck, the vast majority of my HO diesels are DCC ready, and I still need to install decoders in them.

 

[Espeefan]

The ScaleTrains website, in its description, seems to indicate that the non-sound N-scale Big Blow Turbine still at least has DCC functionality. I just learned that it DOES NOT. If you buy the non-sound version, you are getting a purely DC version that has no easily dropped-in decoder, even though they claim it is DCC ready. Just a warning to anybody who, like myself, got the wrong idea from the way they outlined things on their website.

I happen to be at Amherst for the show. I just ran into Shane with Scale Trains. He assures me your model is Decoder ready with a 21 pin ESU plug. The speaker enclosure is already cut. He requests you call them if you are having issues. You probably should have done that before posting. Just because you don't understand it doesn't mean it's wrong.

 

[flyboy2610]

Most retailers (at least the ones interested in surviving) will listen to their customers.
When had my '69 Ford F250, I used ot buy a lot of parts through LMC Truck. I happened to be in the KC area once and stopped by to purchase some parts. One of the items was carpeting. The counter attendant and I got to discussing the carpet, and I mentioned that on a couple of Ford trucks forums I belonged to, a frequent complaint was that the carpet didn't fit the truck it was ordered for. Many people with a C6 automatic had ordered carpet for what LMC referred to as "column shift". The problem was that LMC was referring to manual transmissions, not automatics. So carpet ordered for a column shift would not fit the transmission hump of a C6. We had a good conversation about it, he looked up the purchase history for that carpet and saw a lot of returns with "did not fit" as the reason. He called his manager over, and I explained the situation again. The manager took notes and promised to bring that issue up at the next meeting.
The LMC catalog now makes it very clear which carpet fits which transmission, either manual or automatic.
http://www.lmctruck.com/icatalog/fb/full.aspx?Page=89

I agree. Contact Scale Trains. They are probably very interested in feedback from customers.

 

[MikeOwnby]

I happen to be at Amherst for the show. I just ran into Shane with Scale Trains. He assures me your model is Decoder ready with a 21 pin ESU plug. The speaker enclosure is already cut. He requests you call them if you are having issues. You probably should have done that before posting. Just because you don't understand it doesn't mean it's wrong.

I'm not having issues. Or at least I wasn't. I was simply trying to let people know that the website was a bit unclear about exactly what was included in which model. And really, no matter how friendly or wonderful they may be in person or on the phone, the website can still be unclear and/or misleading. You'll notice that it was others who dropped in some more pejorative remarks, not me. So please save your "should have" finger wagging for the correct culprit.

The one thing I'll wag my OWN finger at myself for is not coming back and updating with the 21-pin decoder info they gave me. However, since all the 21-pin decoders I've found are sound decoders, and BOTH A & B units have to have decoders, there's really doesn't seem to be a way to have DCC in this unit without spending a big chunk of cash. If there is a 21-pin with simple DCC function and no sound, that may be an option that I just didn't find.

So anyway...I decided to finish taking the plunge and get the DCC version. It runs great in turbine mode. It runs like absolute crap in hostler mode and obviously has a defective decoder. I've now been waiting a week for them to actually get back to me and tell me what to do about it. SO while I was very happy with the information and friendliness during the information and ordering process, I'm starting to think they may not have the best service after the sale. I guess if I still haven't heard anything back by tomorrow I'll need to contact my credit card company and start forcing a return. Really wish they'd just answer and fix it, though, because it is a very nice and impressive model if not for one of its operational modes going nuts.

 

[MikeOwnby]

ScaleTrains did finally get back to me yesterday evening. They had to contact ESU about the decoder issues, which I'm guessing is what took so long. You would THINK they'd at least let the customer know what they're doing and why there's a delay (rather than complete silence for a week), but maybe they'll learn to do better.

The unit now does run as advertised, but the McHenry couplers have already started failing. I have no clue why on earth they didn't just put MTL couplers in these things to begin with, but I guess that's my new project. Frankly, with all the fine details on this unit I have a feeling this is going to be very much not fun to do.

With the hindsight of how things have gone I'm not sure I'd purchase this unit again at this price, but I'm not unhappy that I do have it. It's very nicely detailed and now finally runs well, but McHenry couplers, the tepid support response and the fact that the decoder won't operate properly under its factory defaults makes that about the most positive endorsement I can honestly make.

 

[Espeefan]

Same problem with my pair of Athearn 4-8-2's. McHenry couplers that is. The darned things just won't stand up to the load. The shafts flex and the two locomotives separate. I had to replace them. You'd think for the bucks, they could just install Kadees, I'd even pay the extra few bucks.

Regarding your website issue, I looked at their website and did not find it confusing. Their choices were "DCC equipped" and "DCC ready" Typically when I see a hundred buck difference, or in this case $150.00 that tells me "no decoder", but maybe I've just bought more sound equipped locos than you have

Sorry about the finger wagging, but you did sound grumpy. Remember that these are small outfits with just a few players, and you called when they were going to back to back shows (Amherst & Phoenix WGH). It happens. I've had the same issues with several manufacturers. Sometimes you call and the owner picks up the phone. Sometimes it takes longer than we'd prefer. It's just the nature of the cottage industry beast. Sounds like they did get you taken care of. If not, keep after them. I know the group. They're good folks.

 

[MikeOwnby]

Same problem with my pair of Athearn 4-8-2's. McHenry couplers that is. The darned things just won't stand up to the load. The shafts flex and the two locomotives separate. I had to replace them. You'd think for the bucks, they could just install Kadees, I'd even pay the extra few bucks.

Well, MTL's in this case. Remember we're talking N-scale. But yeah, considering that the ONLY couplers I've almost never had fail are MTL and Kato...y'know? And of course Kato couplers just aren't an option for anybody but Kato. Their decision to go with McHenry instead of MTL is honestly just baffling. Maybe they're not as experienced in N-scale and didn't realize how much difference in reliability there was.

Regarding your website issue, I looked at their website and did not find it confusing. Their choices were "DCC equipped" and "DCC ready" Typically when I see a hundred buck difference, or in this case $150.00 that tells me "no decoder", but maybe I've just bought more sound equipped locos than you have

Look at the N-scale listing. Maybe the HO is different. Under "standard features" it says "operate using DC or DCC". Under a separate heading, it says "DCC and Sound Equipped also include" and list the sound decoders. Considering that nobody in their right mind would run an expensive DC locomotive on DCC and burn up the motor, the "DC or DCC" would seem to me indicative that it does have a dual-mode decoder as was the case with the non-sound Rapido FL9 units. There really isn't any good reason to mention DCC for a unit that doesn't have a decoder.

Sorry about the finger wagging, but you did sound grumpy. Remember that these are small outfits with just a few players, and you called when they were going to back to back shows (Amherst & Phoenix WGH). It happens. I've had the same issues with several manufacturers. Sometimes you call and the owner picks up the phone. Sometimes it takes longer than we'd prefer. It's just the nature of the cottage industry beast. Sounds like they did get you taken care of. If not, keep after them. I know the group. They're good folks.

Yes, fully taken care of now. And I really didn't mean to come across TOO grumpy, but I'll admit that after paying what I did for this thing, silence was not being received happily. I'm actually still not happy about the couplers, and I'm a bit worried that a factory reset doesn't reset to the correct defaults, but it is running like a champ now. Turns out the hostler mode that was supposed to work at half the normal top speed was a victim of the scale-speed motor even after correcting the actual erratic behavior. Which I actually figured out myself and told THEM about . Just like Fox Valley (and some of the new Atlas), the motors reach a certain top speed and just stop there. Which would be wonderful if they actually did that at 100% throttle, but of course they don't. Turns out that this GTEL was reaching maximum motor speed at about half throttle, rendering the entire upper half of the throttle range essentially "dead". The unit would run pretty much the same speed all the way from 50% on up. So when the hostler mode cut the top speed in half, that was still full speed physically even though the motor voltage was being dropped down. Once I speed-matched the unit to a realistic top speed, then the hostler mode was able to do its job and actually cut the physical top speed in half as it was supposed to.