SA&AP/SABRR Layout design

[SABRR]

Well,

It's been a quiet Christmas Day for me so I've been working on completing the SABRR. I'm moving into a new home so the room I tentatively have looks to be 17x11. I made an island railroad which consists of San Antonio and then the trip to Yoakum. Each square equals four (4) square inches.

The top side of the layout is Yoakum The two inner rails are the mainlines. The sidings in Yoakum are for the passenger train station and service. The outer track is the yard line which connects the two cities. The double cross overs service the main lines only.

Industries will include a stockyard, grainery, oil facility, tools, welding, tractor, farm market, brewery and a scrap yard, which is the side route on the west side of the layout.

I like the plan as it has many possibilities for switching. The only thing I am 'meh' about is that the mainlines are just a 17x11 oval. The layout looks too symmetrical to me. I can vary the terrain to mix it up but it still seems too ovalish.

Your thoughts and idea's would be most appreciated.

Thank you.

Manny

 

[WCWBrassHat]

Manny,

If you are running counterclockwise you can not get from the outside main to the inner mains without backing the train up. You might want to add another crossover.

Why 3 main lines?

Glenn

 

[SABRR]

Manny,

If you are running counterclockwise you can not get from the outside main to the inner mains without backing the train up. You might want to add another crossover.

Why 3 main lines?

Glenn

Hey Glenn,

Thank you for responding.

The two inner are the mainlines and the far outside is a branch line for yard service, transfer service and locals.

I see your point about the counter clock-wise movements. I will need to remedy this. Since mainline trains will run on the two inner lines, I still see the need for them to go from the branchline/yard lead to the inner lines. I'll work on that.

If you see anything else, please let me know. That's why I posted up. I appreciate the extra set of eyes.

Manny

 

[SABRR]

I added several cross overs in the Yoakum yard to get to the inner main line track.

 

[wright2626]

dont know if i would do the crossovers on the ends.

 

[steinjr]

Well,

It's been a quiet Christmas Day for me so I've been working on completing the SABRR. I'm moving into a new home so the room I tentatively have looks to be 17x11. I made an island railroad which consists of San Antonio and then the trip to Yoakum. Each square equals four (4) square inches.

I like the plan as it has many possibilities for switching. The only thing I am 'meh' about is that the mainlines are just a 17x11 oval. The layout looks too symmetrical to me. I can vary the terrain to mix it up but it still seems too ovalish.

Your thoughts and idea's would be most appreciated.

Hi Manny --

I am a bit confused by your terms "island layout" and "each square equals 4 square inches".

I counted little square on your plan. If I assume that each little square is 2" across (ie 2x2 = 4 square inches), it looks like your entire layout maybe could be described as a sort of island layout (ie a table surrounded by open floor) - with a table being about 5.5 x 8.5 feet, with a 2.5 foot x 5.5 foot operator pit in the middle of the table surrounded by 18" of layout.

If on the other hand I assume that you are right when you talk about 17x11 (foot) oval, then that would tally with each little square being 4" x 4" (ie 16 square inches).

Then what you have is not an island style layout, but an around-the-walls type of layout that is 30" deep (ie a bit deep to reach into the corners easily - e.g where you have your yard like tracks in the lower left corner), and a huge operator pit of 5 feet x 11 feet in the middle.

What can you tell us about the room itself - no doors, windows, storage cupboards or closets you will need access to?

What era are you modeling - you are talking about both stock yards, oil, a produce market (or maybe a farm supply type of store) and manufacturing type industry (welding), so I assume perhaps not today and perhaps not 1880s - is this 1950s style railroading or earlier or later ?

It follows from that whether your cars will be mainly 40-foot cars or bigger cars. What train lengths (number/type of cars) are you designing for?

Is this an N scale or H0 scale layout? Both are feasible in the type of space you have, but it is important to know to be able to evaluate length of sidings etc.

It is not a problem making the mains a little curved instead of parallel to the table/shelf edges.

But both along the top and bottom of the layout you have quite a bit of track branching off the outer track (the yard line).

If what you have here is indeed 30" deep shelves around the walls of a room, why not move your vantage point to the opposite side of the main, and model the area with the yard line and it's attendant industries (where you will do quite a bit of switching) along the aisle, within easy reach, and have the mains further back towards the walls?

Especially if quite a bit of your industries will be low structures anyways - stock yards, scrap yard and such things.

Feel free to grab and modify or use whatever ideas might appeal to you, and to ignore whatever advice or suggestions you don't like

Smile,
Stein

 

[steinjr]

One more thing: what can you tell us about your overall vision, or the overall concept for your layout?

Assume that even though I (as a non-American living across the pond) have heard about San Antonio (Texas, right - Alamo and all that?), I have never heard about rail traffic into and through the town of Yoakum.

It sounds from what you write like you want to model passenger traffic on a double track mainline through Yoakum, and industry switching along an industry line that runs between San Antonio and Yoakum.

What kind of passenger traffic do you want to model? Is Yoakum passenger wise a busy place, with passenger trains (maybe frequent commuter trains) arriving in opposite directions on both tracks at the same time pretty much constantly?

Or is Yoakum conceptually a fairly small town which sees one passing long distance passenger train stop once a day (or three days a week or whatever), with most of the traffic on the main being passing freights?

How important is the double track main to the look and feel of your layout?

In real life, double track is there to support busy traffic - one main being used for "up" traffic and one for "down" traffic (i.e. in the opposite direction), so trains in the opposite directions won't have to wait for each other in sidings.

But to model the typical traffic on a busy double track main - i.e. getting a sequence of trains passing through a town in both directions tends to mean that you must set aside a lot of your layout space for extensive staging tracks.

Staging tracks are tracks where e.g. 4-5 different trains in both directions (a total of 8-10 trains) can wait before making their run.

So a layout meant to showcase a sequence of trains on a double track main (instead of just having one train circle endlessly on each of the two mains) tends to need quite a bit of staging space.

Taking a double track main down to a single track main with one or two passing sidings tends to make for more interesting mainline running for a model railroad - you now must coordinate trains meeting at the sidings, with one train going into the siding to let the other pass.

Makes mainline running take a lot longer time - i.e. better "play value" for our layouts. You now can get away with less staging, and each mainline train will spend a longer time going across the main, since there now is cause to stop at signals by sidings.

But it could be that the double track main is part of the look of the area, and should be modeled. Not a given that you have to run trains on both mains, though - you can always declare a section of one main closed for maintenance, and create a deliberate bottleneck for your trains.

Anyways - might be a good idea to describe (at least in rough terms) what kind of train traffic you imagine for a typical "day" on your layout.

What trains do you think will run? From where will they come, to where will they go? How will they interact?

Will a passing freight train be dropping off a block of cars for the local industries in a siding somewhere, and a local turn come out from a yard somewhere beyond the layout, pick up the inbound cars, go switch industries, drop off outbound cars in a siding to be picked up by another passing train later?

Will passenger trains be exchanging cars - will one passenger train e.g. drop off a restaurant car, which later will be added to another passing passenger train?

And so on and so forth - how do you visualize the way your trains will be running?

Doesn't have to be 100% prototypical or "realistic" - as per the Golden Rule ("he who pays the gold makes the rules") you can run trains any which way you like on your layout.

But thinking about how you want to run your trains and have your trains interact may help focus the track plan design.

And by all means - feel free to apply the KISS principle - keep it simple at the start.

Only you can decide what your goal should be. No need to make up a super elaborate operating plan with staging and all kinds of things, if what you really want to do is to be able to kick back in a comfy chair with a cool beverage in your hand, admiring a train or two running through your field of vision.

Enough verbiage - hope I didn't scare you into thinking that this has to be done in an elaborate way and that you have to make a deep study of how real railroads operated to be able to build a model railroad layout.

It is supposed to be fun. If you are having fun, you are doing it the right way

Smile,
Stein

 

[steinjr]

Got curious (a common failing of mine).

Saw that you had posted on the SABRR on the frisco.org forums - learned that the abbreviation stands for San Antonio de Bexar Railroad, which you there described as a San Antonio shortline that connected with the Frisco, the Katy, Mopac and T&P.

You also mentioned running only steam, and apparently posted pictures of 1880s-1920s RR cars (didn't get to see the pics, since I am not a member of the Frisco forum).

Also googled for the other abbreviation you had - SA&AP. Learned (on http://saap.tnorr.com/) that it was a south Texas railroad from 1886 until 1925 that originally ran south/SE from San Antonio to the coast (at Corpus Christi instead of Aransas Pass originally).

Yoakum was on a side line eastwards from Kenedy (on the SA/CC line) to Yoakum, and there the railroad branched out - east to Houston and north to Waco, with a side branch from Shiner - just to the north of Yoakum - to Lockhart.

Line map for the SA&AP: http://saap.tnorr.com/rail-lines.htm

Passenger ops for the SA&AP: http://www.wcroberts.org/Pass_ops.html

More background on the SA&AP: http://home.earthlink.net/~mashelley/SAAPRoad.html - in particular, if you haven't already - have a look at images and maps of the Yoakum yards: http://www.angelfire.com/tx4/merianfamily/yoakum.html

Anyways - I'll stop now - I just got curious about a couple of railroads and a town I had never ever heard about before.

Grin,
Stein

 

[SABRR]

Okay,

It took me all morning to digest all your points, so please allow me to explain everything.

My SABRR is a fictional railroad based on the SA&AP, which by 1925 came under control of the Southern Pacific Railroad. I am changing the history a little, as in 1913, SA&AP Owner/President had his best friend B.F. Yoakum of the Saint Louis & San Francisco Ry (Frisco) infuse a ton of cash to help expand the line towards Kerrville and further north past Yoakum up to Waco.

The Frisco merged with the SA&AP at Kerrville in 1910 and had trackage rights on the SA&AP as far as San Antonio. In real history, this was for a short time. On my layout, I'm changing history a little to have the Frisco absorb the SA&AP before the 1925 hostile takeover by Southern Pacific.

Yoakum was the main yard/engine facility for the SA&AP despite San Antonio being the main junction for all the branches of the line. In my original layout schematic above, Yoakum is actually represented by Enid, Oklahoma; a hub of the Frisco. After reading all your words, I realized several things:

1. Three lines was much for the SA&AP and wouldn't accurately reflect the railroad.

2. Passenger service was strong between San Antonio and Yoakum. This was the main line all the way north to Waco. I intend on running two passenger trains.

3. The original plan did not include an engine facility. This didn't sit well with me. I want an engine facility. So I brought back the pinwheel yard design I saw in another MRF thread to represent Yoakum which included an engine facility.

4. The San Antonio area had some changes.

• I eliminated the branchline/yard lead
• I added the double crossover
• I shortened the original inside main to represent a spur for another industry

5. The layout is designed for a 17x11 layout HO scale. Each square represents 4 square inches on a 1:20 scale. It is an island design which at most other than the NE corner has full arm access.


I feel that this is a better representation of the SA&AP with some license for dealing with size/modeling. The only drawback I can see is that any serious yard switching takes up the No. 2 mainline. This may not be bad, as it will allow switching at both ends of the yard, while the No. 1 mainline can operate freely.

Again, if you see anything, please let me know. It is not in concrete and I have changed to make it a better railroad to operate.

 

[steinjr]

Hi Manny --

First impression: the Yoakum yard seems way oversize compared with the rest of your layout.

You have a big (for a model railroad) fairly generic looking double ended yard there with room for 100+ cars (at 80% full), with each track long enough to hold about thirty 40-foot cars.

You have reach issues - with 32" of reach at the left end of the yard and 40+ inches of reach both at the right end of the yard (behind the roundhouse) and in the lower left hand corner - where you have some tracks with a ladder where the clearance points will be hard to see since the yard is sloping away from you instead of towards you, and hard to reach.

Also, it is hard to understand your conceptual/operational plan. There does not seem to be any places for trains to run towards or come from - i.e. staging. What is it that you want to simulate?

Is your main goal to simulate switching and routing in Yoakum, with trains coming in from or heading towards San Antonio and Corpus Christi (both by way of Kenedy), and other trains coming in from and heading towards Houston, Waco and Lockhart (by way of Shiner), plus some local switching around Yoakum?

If so, you need to set aside a reasonable amount of staging tracks on the part of the layout not representing Yoakum to represent "towards Kenedy", "towards Shiner/Waco" and "towards Houston".

Or is your main goal to model over the road running through some small towns - say from Cuero (a connection with GH&SA), via Edgar to Yoakum, with the South/West end of Yoakum being at very end of your modeled area?

In which case you probably could get away with less staging - then you would need staging to represent "towards Kenedy", but you could model modeling the connection with the GH&SA as a track in Cuero where inbound cars from the GH&SA "have been left" before your train arrives and where outbound cars for the GH&SA will be picked up "later", and you could model traffic towards the north and east of Yoakum as "having already arrived in Yoakum" when your train arrives, with the cars you bring to Yoakum being sent onwards on other trains later.

You also need to think about train lengths, since that both influences staging length, yard length, and the length of any passing track.

If you e.g. design for freight trains typically consisting of a steam engine and ten 36-foot cars, or passenger trains consisting of a steam engine and five 60-foot Harriman type (or similar) coaches, you need to plan for trains being about 5 feet long.

Which means that in 17+11+17+11= 56 feet, you can have about 10 train lengths of mainline with a once around track. Allowing you to model e.g. Cuero in 10 feet of length, then having 8-10 feet of landscape between Cuero and Edgar, modeling Edgar (including a passing siding) in 5 feet of length, then having another 8-10 feet before Yoakum, and modeling part of Yoakum in about 20 feet of length.

Anyways - I would suggest thinking more about what theme you want to model, and what trains you want to run on your layout, before spending too much time on thinking about how to fit the maximum amount of long double ended yard tracks and double track mains into the room.

Smile,
Stein

 

[SABRR]

Hi Manny --

First impression: the Yoakum yard seems way oversize compared with the rest of your layout.

You have a big (for a model railroad) fairly generic looking double ended yard there with room for 100+ cars (at 80% full), with each track long enough to hold about thirty 40-foot cars.

You have reach issues - with 32" of reach at the left end of the yard and 40+ inches of reach both at the right end of the yard (behind the roundhouse) and in the lower left hand corner - where you have some tracks with a ladder where the clearance points will be hard to see since the yard is sloping away from you instead of towards you, and hard to reach.

Also, it is hard to understand your conceptual/operational plan. There does not seem to be any places for trains to run towards or come from - i.e. staging. What is it that you want to simulate?

Is your main goal to simulate switching and routing in Yoakum, with trains coming in from or heading towards San Antonio and Corpus Christi (both by way of Kenedy), and other trains coming in from and heading towards Houston, Waco and Lockhart (by way of Shiner), plus some local switching around Yoakum?

If so, you need to set aside a reasonable amount of staging tracks on the part of the layout not representing Yoakum to represent "towards Kenedy", "towards Shiner/Waco" and "towards Houston".

Or is your main goal to model over the road running through some small towns - say from Cuero (a connection with GH&SA), via Edgar to Yoakum, with the South/West end of Yoakum being at very end of your modeled area?

In which case you probably could get away with less staging - then you would need staging to represent "towards Kenedy", but you could model modeling the connection with the GH&SA as a track in Cuero where inbound cars from the GH&SA "have been left" before your train arrives and where outbound cars for the GH&SA will be picked up "later", and you could model traffic towards the north and east of Yoakum as "having already arrived in Yoakum" when your train arrives, with the cars you bring to Yoakum being sent onwards on other trains later.

You also need to think about train lengths, since that both influences staging length, yard length, and the length of any passing track.

If you e.g. design for freight trains typically consisting of a steam engine and ten 36-foot cars, or passenger trains consisting of a steam engine and five 60-foot Harriman type (or similar) coaches, you need to plan for trains being about 5 feet long.

Which means that in 17+11+17+11= 56 feet, you can have about 10 train lengths of mainline with a once around track. Allowing you to model e.g. Cuero in 10 feet of length, then having 8-10 feet of landscape between Cuero and Edgar, modeling Edgar (including a passing siding) in 5 feet of length, then having another 8-10 feet before Yoakum, and modeling part of Yoakum in about 20 feet of length.

Anyways - I would suggest thinking more about what theme you want to model, and what trains you want to run on your layout, before spending too much time on thinking about how to fit the maximum amount of long double ended yard tracks and double track mains into the room.

Smile,
Stein

Hey Stein,

Thank you so much for the valuable input. I'm taking everything you say to heart. I've been out of the hobby for 20+ years, so my layout skills are rusty to say the least.

Yes, the HUGE yard at Yoakum is bothering me. It is way to big at 17 feet long. I'm thinking of cutting it in half with a traditional ladder in the middle. I'm just stuck with what to do inside the other half.

I'm going to work on it some more. I'm sure I can make adjustments/refinements that will bring a balance between appearance and performance.

Please continue to help. It is appreciated.

Manny

 

[steinjr]

Hey Stein,

Yes, the HUGE yard at Yoakum is bothering me. It is way to big at 17 feet long. I'm thinking of cutting it in half with a traditional ladder in the middle. I'm just stuck with what to do inside the other half.

I'm going to work on it some more. I'm sure I can make adjustments/refinements that will bring a balance between appearance and performance.

Please continue to help. It is appreciated.

No problem.

I was looking at a cutout from a Sanborn map of the roundhouse area of Yoakum http://www.angelfire.com/tx4/merianfamily/yoakum_roundhouse.jpg


Interesting stuff seen in the cutout linked to above: Cars shops, machine shop, RR stock pens, foot bridge across tracks, water spouts for engines, sand house, a warehouse, lumber unloading, a planing mill - certainly enough stuff to make an interesting scene out of Yoakum itself.

The thing not shown in the Sanborn map is the passenger part of the yards.

If you are in Texas, it might be an idea to get access to a Sanborn map showing the rest of town and the rest of the yard, to look for more ideas.

The Perry Castañeda map collection at the U of T has some 1880s and 1890s Sanborn maps freely available at http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/sanborn/texas.html, but unfortunately they have not scanned the Y's yet - and it might be a bit early for your desired age anyways

But you should be able to get access to the Sanborn maps (and make a copy for your own personal use) through the Texshare web page from all public libraries in Texas: http://www.libraryoftexas.org/?page=texshare

Might be a good idea to do, to get a feel for what kind of stuff was within the station area.

Mind you - there is no guarantee that the map is correct - the Sanborn people were interested in selling fire insurance, not in documenting RR tracks in exact detail. But at least you should get a rough idea about what the yard area looked like.

But the bigger questions still remains - what will be the theme of your layout?

Your room is e.g. seemingly big enough (unless there are other hindrances not yet mentioned) for a fairly long and narrow run even with fairly gentle curves (say 26" radius curves) - quick concept sketch - illustrated train is 10 40-foot cars, caboose and a foot long engine:

Lots of ways of going on this one - main thing is to first decide on what aspect of Yoakum and the railroad you want to model.

Smile,
Stein, heading back to bed again with a stomach flu

 

[steinjr]

I browsed a little more in the Sanborn maps at the U of T Castañada collection (http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/sanborn/texas.html) to have a look at some other towns in the area around Yoakum.

Shiner (just to the North of Yoakum) in the 1922 Sanborn maps looks like a pretty nice LDE (Layout Design Element) for a medium-sized layout. Has a simple track plan, but interesting industries.

A line diagram showing a possible track and industry plan for Shiner (in this plan I flipped the orientation, so foreground industries would be out on the flanks, not in center front - I am assuming aisle at lower end, backdrop at upper end of drawing - Yoakum is off towards the right, Waco is towards the left):

Cuero 1922 also looks pretty interesting for an LDE - south to north is has multi-track industries on both sides of the main, an interchange with another railroad, a passenger station and a freight station located between the main and a siding, and an double ended industry siding with multiple oil companies side by side.

Too bad they don't have the Yoakum maps scanned yet. Despite not necessarily being precise, the Sanborn maps often at least give you a rough impression of the look and feel of the area.

Smile,
Stein

 

[SABRR]

Thank you so much for the additional information. I've been working on revamping the plan. I did so on Frisco.org. I'll post the changes here.

I like the Shiner map. I'm going to incorporate that. Most of the industries in Shiner, I already have, so that's good!

I like your layout scheme. I just need to miniaturize my thoughts. I may have a bigger room to work in, so that part remains to be seen.

Thanks!

Manny

 

[steinjr]

Thank you so much for the additional information. I've been working on revamping the plan. I did so on Frisco.org. I'll post the changes here.

Mmm - saw it. Not sure I like the roundhouse in front of the yard - it just makes the layout so deep at that point. How about pushing the turntable and roundhouse into one of the corners (behind the main) instead?

Quick sketch - not made now, I doodled this yesterday.

I am not at all happy with this sketch - it does not flow right to convey an impression of the part of Yoakum that was in the Sanborn fragment I saw, but it illustrates trying to push the enginehouse into a corner (and trying to model just one end of Yoakum):

I'd better head for bed - need to catch some sleep before work tomorrow.

Smile,
Stein

 

[SABRR]

Why is it so easy for you and difficult for me to do something as simple as that? Ugh!

Thanks for all the help. Get some sleep!

 

[OCN Guy]

I'm just stuck with what to do inside the other half.

That's a nice problem to have!

 

[SABRR]

Alright,

Last night and some time today, I finished up a layout based upon your ideas and drawings. The minimum radii is 26" for the entire layout with the exception of the tear drop whose inner is 24". The scale remains the same in the drawing at 1:20 and 4" square to each square on the board.

The layout as pictured stands at 17' x 14'. To stay within the 17' x 11' and maintain 26" radii, I would run out of room. That is without San Antonio Yard added. I would have only a 4" wide strip to lay a single track. So I opened it up a little.

Now, having said that, I may be able to handle the growth of 11' to 14'. I have to double check. But is the final result something more of what you were looking for? I do like the route as it gives me much more track and room for smaller industries and scenery.

What do you think?

Thank you again for your help!

Manny

Total track length (main): 255 9/32 '

 

[fast_ian]

That's a nice problem to have!

+1

I *dream* of having that "problem"

Now, having said that, I may be able to handle the growth of 11' to 14'.

Now you're just teasing us!

Cheers,
Ian

 

[SABRR]

A friend on another board said this to me:

"Well, this is certainly better, and the view-block in the middle of the peninsula will help make the railroad "feel" bigger. However, I think there are still a couple things you should consider:

1. The yard at (let's call it) the south end seems bigger than it needs to be for the type of railroad I understand you to be planning. You might want to skinny that down and add some kind of industry that offers an opportunity to switch with a purpose, e.g., a sawmill, brewery or some such. Also, there is no provision to turn the locomotive at this end unless the turntable in the northwest corner is doing double duty for both ends of the railroad.

2. The yard on the north end appears to be oriented backward. Your primary main line run is through the center peninsula, but when you build your train using the ladder, your power will be on the west end of the train, which will take you over the short leg of the main line. There is a run-around track, but the train will need to be really short in order to use it, and if you are running trains that short, again, you have a lot of yard.

I do believe form follows function. You already know where this railroad goes, but do you know for sure what it does for a living? When you are completely clear on that, you will have a better idea of what industries it serves, how to represent interchanges, etc. Otherwise you have a "track plan," but not really a railroad. There is a difference and it is much easier to work out before you start than after all the track is spiked down.

Good luck!

Greg"




OOOOOOOOOOH-Kay!

I made some serious changes to Yoakum Yard which is on the North side of the map. Here are the changes:

1. Removal of the team track sidings just SE of the turn table

2. Removal of one of the switches and run leading to the engine shop tracks.

3. Added an additional line from the turntable which parallels the engine shop track. The coaling towers will be located on those tracks.

4. Added a siding along the roundhouse to park a locomotive. I may add more depending on the room left by the roundhouse.

5. I reversed the yard and created a lead that couples to the main where the old team track lead was located.

6. I added a caboose track to the switching yard lead.

7. The siding off the yard lead, below the yard will hold all M.O.W. equipment.

I hope that this addresses the yard issues and makes things flow a little better.

Manny