Plaster cloth worries


chessie_system3

Well-Known Member
Ok so I'm working on my mountain and tunnel. I'm using crumpled up newspaper and I notice it has a lot of give to it.....I am extremely worried that the paper will collapse if I go to apply my plaster cloth to it. Anyone have any advice about this?

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A few options I've done in the past, use crumpled paper just as you have been doing and then plaster cloth then a layout of plaster of paris or use the crumpled paper as you have been doing to get the shape then a latice of cardboard strips ( nothing fancy) then plaster cloth and then plaster of paris if you want. I like the plaster of paris as a final coat because it gives something to drill into for planting trees.
 
So if I read correctly you use cardboard strips over the paper or just paper only? I have seen the cardboard strips being used. Would those be more durable than paper? And how flexible is it in forming land shapes?

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So if I read correctly you use cardboard strips over the paper or just paper only? I have seen the cardboard strips being used. Would those be more durable than paper? And how flexible is it in forming land shapes?

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I generally just use the bunched up paper to make the form of the hill and most times pull it out if I can. The cardboard strips are very flexible once in place. You simply push them inward where you want a sunken spot.
If you take a look at my layout thread in my signature I'm pretty sure you will see some techniques used.
 
You used a couple different techniques. All I have seen before but have never used myself. This is my cherry popping if you will at adding inclines and mountains. I have always built a flat layout which doesn't work nor look right being from West Virginia and modeling coal from there. So trying to add dimension to my layout. I also read that you used quite a bit of plaster cloth in a small space. Approximately in how small of a space if you know off the top of your head?

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You used a couple different techniques. All I have seen before but have never used myself. This is my cherry popping if you will at adding inclines and mountains. I have always built a flat layout which doesn't work nor look right being from West Virginia and modeling coal from there. So trying to add dimension to my layout. I also read that you used quite a bit of plaster cloth in a small space. Approximately in how small of a space if you know off the top of your head?

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Not exactly sure what your asking here "Approximately in how small of a space if you know off the top of your head?"

Believe me I have tried every technique out there plus plus plus. I buy my plaster of paris from a place in toronto ont when I'm in the area, I generally buy 150 lbs at a time and get my plaster cloth from Curry's Art Supply,compared to all the other plaster cloth out there I find it super cheap.
 
Hmmmm.....well you had stated you used a lot of plaster cloth in a small area. Didn't know if you knew how much you used in how much of a small area. My layout is small. It's only a 4x8 so its not very vast but it works for me. I only have two rolls of plaster cloth. Will that be enough for a 4x8 layout?

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Hmmmm.....well you had stated you used a lot of plaster cloth in a small area. Didn't know if you knew how much you used in how much of a small area. My layout is small. It's only a 4x8 so its not very vast but it works for me. I only have two rolls of plaster cloth. Will that be enough for a 4x8 layout?

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I'm going to say no it will not be enough if you intend on getting adventurous , never is.Most of my larger mountains I saved from my previous layout which was flat for the most part and I then took the plunge and built my present layout. If you want to buy cloth cheap don't buy woodland scenics or scenic express , look for an art supply store for plaster bandage. Are
 
Well OK then. I'll get an open mind to this thought. If I should fall short which I probably will I'll keep an eye out for cheaper plaster cloth.

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So if I read correctly you use cardboard strips over the paper or just paper only? I have seen the cardboard strips being used. Would those be more durable than paper? And how flexible is it in forming land shapes?

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You use the cardboard strips only. The plaster cloth goes over the strips.

In my experience it goes like this:

1) Staple and glue the cardboard strips to get the general outline of the terrain.
2) Place plaster cloth (or other) over the strips to get a solid surface. Let dry.
3) Apply rock molds to the plaster cloth if necessary.
 
Hmmmm.....well you had stated you used a lot of plaster cloth in a small area. Didn't know if you knew how much you used in how much of a small area. My layout is small. It's only a 4x8 so its not very vast but it works for me. I only have two rolls of plaster cloth. Will that be enough for a 4x8 layout?

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See "Big-E" over at the coffee shop, he just completed a mountain on a similar size layout using the techniques described and pics are available of his process!
 
chessie,

I think it has already been mentioned but, if not, a couple of things to be aware of. Using the cardboard strip method with plaster cloth has one downfall - the cloth will "sag" in between the cardboard strips no matter how hard you try to keep it taught, or even reasonably taught. A better, and quicker method (I think) is to use scrunched up news paper to form your mountain/hill then use the plaster over the top of that. You could even do a paper mache type of thing.

How much cloth will you need? Lots, even for a small area. To obtain a "reasonably solid" surface, you will need to have at least two (2) layers of the cloth, that is even what the manufacturers recommend. When I did my first layout I used the newspaper/plaster cloth method and found I had to do three layers of the cloth to obtain any sort of good base with which to work with.

If memory serves me correctly, Plaster Cloth is about 8" wide and in rolls 10' long. Your 8 X 4 layout will need about 10 rolls to cover it fully with each strip of the cloth overlapping the previous by 50% giving you basically 2 layers. If you are using the cloth JUST to create a mountain, then I would strongly recommend you use a minimum of 3 layers of the stuff. How you will "fill the gaps" (where it sags) is another matter though.

One other small problem I have found using plaster cloth as well, the amount of actual "plaster" in the cloth is minimal and does not fully cover the cloth itself. What I mean by that is, even when you have wetted the cloth, layed it all out and "smoothed it down", you will see a lot of little "holes" where the plaster hasn't covered properly. Depending on the make of the cloth, that may be apparent even after two layers. This may not be an issue (of course) as the cloth will be painted and covered with ground covers etc, so it may not matter with regards aesthetics; however, where the plaster does not cover means that/those spots will be weaker.

I am not trying to put you off using Plaster Cloth as it is a good start if it has a solid base to sit on, such as foam or even a wire mesh etc; however, I don't think it is a great method if the cloth is going to be relied upon as the base on its own as well as some of the pitfalls with it, not the least being how much you will/may need.

So, my recommendation would be (if using plaster cloth) to use the scrunched up newspaper method to form your mountain/hill then cover that with the cloth rather than the cardboard board strip and cloth method.
 
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chessie,

I think it has already been mentioned but, if not, a couple of things to be aware of. Using the cardboard strip method with plaster cloth has one downfall - the cloth will "sag" in between the cardboard strips no matter how hard you try to keep it taught, or even reasonably taught. A better, and quicker method (I think) is to use scrunched up news paper to form your mountain/hill then use the plaster over the top of that. You could even do a paper mache type of thing.

How much cloth will you need? Lots, even for a small area. To obtain a "reasonably solid" surface, you will need to have at least two (2) layers of the cloth, that is even what the manufacturers recommend. When I did my first layout I used the newspaper/plaster cloth method and found I had to do three layers of the cloth to obtain any sort of good base with which to work with.

If memory serves me correctly, Plaster Cloth is about 8" wide and in rolls 10' long. Your 8 X 4 layout will need about 10 rolls to cover it fully with each strip of the cloth overlapping the previous by 50% giving you basically 2 layers. If you are using the cloth JUST to create a mountain, then I would strongly recommend you use a minimum of 3 layers of the stuff. How you will "fill the gaps" (where it sags) is another matter though.

One other small problem I have found using plaster cloth as well, the amount of actual "plaster" in the cloth is minimal and does not fully cover the cloth itself. What I mean by that is, even when you have wetted the cloth, layed it all out and "smoothed it down", you will see a lot of little "holes" where the plaster hasn't covered properly. Depending on the make of the cloth, that may be apparent even after two layers. This may not be an issue (of course) as the cloth will be painted and covered with ground covers etc, so it may not matter with regards aesthetics; however, where the plaster does not cover means that/those spots will be weaker.

I am not trying to put you off using Plaster Cloth as it is a good start if it has a solid base to sit on, such as foam or even a wire mesh etc; however, I don't think it is a great method if the cloth is going to be relied upon as the base on its own as well as some of the pitfalls with it, not the least being how much you will/may need.

So, my recommendation would be (if using plaster cloth) to use the scrunched up newspaper method to form your mountain/hill then cover that with the cloth rather than the cardboard board strip and cloth method.
Well I noticed that the news paper has a fair amount of give to it. That was my primary concern at the start. I figured there would be areas of sag with cardboard just because there would be gaps in the strips. As for space its taking on my layout I should probably do up the basic shape of my so called mountain. Mine won't be as large as BigE's though. At least not in taking up a whole side of my layout. Mine just follows an incline up to my upper mine. The upper mine will be my tunnel and I plan to build outwards from it a little bit so that my portals will fit. I should probably add some pics of what I'm doing and what my plans are. Though it may be a couple of days. I may do some more tomorrow and ass some pictures of my progress as I go.

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The plaster of paris, cardboard strips, newspaper stuffing; what a mess.
You might want to consider tearing that stuff all out and just using the 2" foam board and wall plaster over it. You can carve the foam board with a Kirf saw and the wall plaster in 5 gallon buckets is already mixed and not all sloppy dripping all over the floor and layout. A final coat of textured paint with ground color and it's a very good looking scenery.
This first picture shows the stages from raw foam board to finished scenery.
The last picture is the textured paint bucket. It's about a 2 gallon bucket. I bought a one gallon can of Bear paint earth tone to mix into this textured paint. I also picked up some tubes of yellow and black paint at the Hobby Lobby to add to the earth tone so it doesn't show with a pink tone in pictures.
The foam board can be glued down to the wood framework of your layout using liquid nails. It won't glue to itself very well because most glues require airflow to set up. In my larger applications of the foam, i.e. mountains, I put small slabs of plywood between the layers of foam board. Just 2"x2" pieces is all and the air can get in there and help the glue to set up.

Foamboard%202_zpsgdqaekgo.png


Foamboard_zpsnggodg4g.png


Behrsandpaint_zpsfafc9cc9.png


I use this tool to shape the foam board after trimming it with the kirf saw.

IMG_6661_zps51f88fe4.png


The foam board can be glued down to the wood framework of your layout using liquid nails. It won't glue to itself very well because most glues require airflow to set up. In my larger applications of the foam, i.e. mountains, I put small slabs of plywood between the layers of foam board. Just 2"x2" pieces is all and the air can get in there and help the glue to set up. There is glue that lets you glue foam board to foam board but its kinda expensive. In this application, I used screen to cover the large areas of foam board then put the wall plaster over that. Securing the screen to the foam board is easy by just pushing nails through the screen into the foam board. It holds enough to get the plaster on it.

Mountains5_zpsb62db2b2.png
 
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"...You might want to consider tearing that stuff all out and just using the 2" foam board and wall plaster over it...


THAT is the best way to do it without a doubt and the way I have done all of my scenery, especially if you are incorporating tunnels. Using the foam board gives you so many more options and allows you to be creative. Using Plaster (I prefer the 20 or 45 minute cure mix it yourself stuff) lets you add to the terrain through manipulation of the plaster AND (this in my opinion is the important bit) it is MUCH MUCH cheaper.
Another upside to using the foam and plaster is it is much cleaner over all.

I do pretty much the same as Ken, work out how high I want my mountain hill etc and glue 2: foam to itself, using elmers white glue, then carve out the "shape" I want the mountain/hill to be. That is glued in place and then covered with the plaster. I use the plaster to give the ground the end shape, detail and character if you like. Creating the tunnels is obviously also a heck of a lot easier and quicker too.

If you take a look at my Layout Thread (linked in my sig), you can see how my "mountains" were formed. All in all, using foam and plaster is cheaper, cleaner, quicker and provides a much more solid structure. To be honest, the ONLY thing I have used plaster cloth for is to cover the woodlands risers and (in hindsight) would not do that again either.
 
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THAT is the best way to do it without a doubt and the way I have done all of my scenery, especially if you are incorporating tunnels. Using the foam board gives you so many more options and allows you to be creative. Using Plaster (I prefer the 20 or 45 minute cure mix it yourself stuff) lets you add to the terrain through manipulation of the plaster AND (this in my opinion is the important bit) it is MUCH MUCH cheaper.
Another upside to using the foam and plaster is it is much cleaner over all.

I do pretty much the same as Ken, work out how high I want my mountain hill etc and glue 2: foam to itself, using elmers white glue, then carve out the "shape" I want the mountain/hill to be. That is glued in place and then covered with the plaster. I use the plaster to give the ground the end shape, detail and character if you like. Creating the tunnels is obviously also a heck of a lot easier and quicker too.

If you take a look at my Layout Thread (linked in my sig), you can see how my "mountains" were formed. All in all, using foam and plaster is cheaper, cleaner, quicker and provides a much more solid structure. To be honest, the ONLY thing I have used plaster cloth for is to cover the woodlands risers and (in hindsight) would not do that again either.
Well taking a little bit from this post here. You said you would only use the cloth for risers but wouldn't do it again. What would you use then?

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chessie,

My next layout (if there is one) would be built using the open frame and cookie cutting method, so I wouldn't need risers as such. However, if I were to use Woodlands risers I would "cover them" with 1/4" thick foam to ensure a smooth surface on which to lay my road bed and track.
 
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Assuming you use it as a filler more or less for cuts in the risers themselves. I'm guessing the plaster cloth will treat it the same way as cardboard strips? It will sag?

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I learned that there are benefits from one way compared to the next and the next,but all ways will work.For me I like the foamboard only on flat areas and of course my benchwork is open grid with risers for the rail as well I use risers to lift and area or a diorama. For me the foam board gives a nice starter base over the open grid to start off. I basicly model around the walls so most mountains ( and I like my mountains) are molded up the wall amost as a back drop then backdrop painted up higher above that. I've found that I can do most of my initial contours with crumpled paper then lattice of cardboard then plaster cloth and then to add strength I'll use plaster of paris, I'll mix up a large batch and basicly pour it on and use a big paint brush to smooth it out and sometimes at the same time add a hard rock casting. Once the plaster of paris is hard I rewet it and add my big rock molds wet and peel the rock mold off when its set. I also use ground goop alot , I keep a 2.5 gallon pail available, and go from there.You have to find out what works best for your kind of layout and remember there is no wrong way.
 



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