Operations?


N

NP2626

Guest
First of all I don't understand why the Model Railroader Forums don't have a FORUM entitled "Model Railroad Operation"?

Over the last couple years I have almost stopped building on the layout; or, doing scenery projects. I decided that I needed to start operating my layout, to see if what for most is the Ultimate Goal of a model railroad layout, trips my trigger. This delve into operations has shown me some of the short coming of my layout, not enough industries and not enough, or, not long enough staging. These short comings are aspects of the layout that I’ve decided I’m going to live with.

Although I have always been interested in trains and railroading, I have never worked for the railroad, so to truly understanding how they operate is somewhat nebulous. I have read much of Koester’s information on operations I have two of his books on the subject. I’ve read Bruce Chubbs book and I may be overwhelmed by the "Operations" subject. I don’t actually care about faithfully duplicating Northern Pacific Operations in the mountains of Montana in 1953, my chosen line, location and year. I really only want to have the flavor of how operations are done.

Can I ask that a new Forum Title be added to all the great topic discussed here and that is a title of Operations and how to do them or some such other name where operations can be discussed?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Have you checked out the NMRA's OPSIG? There is a group on Yahoo where what you want may already exist. It's actually a little difficult to discuss operations on a forum beyond general principles, I think. Without a pic of your layout track plan and a list of trains you want to run and what they do, it's difficult to relate to others what you are doing or attempting. If you did not build your layout with operations in mind, it can be difficult to add operations later. Kalmbach did do a book on basic operations that Koester authored titled "Realistic Model Railroad Operation" and covers the basics pretty well. Sounds like you may have read it. If not, I'd recommend it. Chubb will overwhelm a beginner. It's like talking to Yoda! He knows a lot of stuff but it can be like trying to take a drink from a fire hose. I'm not sure how well an operations forum would do here. We do have some very talented folks, and experienced modelers, but most seem to be doing their own thing. Those guys aren't going to be able to discuss operations very well with folks who are asking for help planning their layout or wondering why their SD-70 Ace is having trouble negotiating 18" radius curves :D. (no slam to beginners intended here, this is just an example).

I do enjoy operations, but I belong to a club. I read Koester's book, but also needed to learn by doing to really absorb it. I'd say the first thing you need is to pick a waybill system (there are simple ones, as Koester says in the book) that will tell you where cars are going. Here is a good link for some basic resources: http://www.opsig.org/reso/ops101.shtml
 
Mark - I agree with you on the need for an operations based discussion forum here. I'm not too sure how we could get one added. I have noted that on other forums that I sometimes visit, only about half of them have one. My own operations do not duplicate anything, but are representational of the RR that I loosely model, Santa Fe of course! I am fortunate in that I have built several layouts prior to building the "train shed" and my current layout. I learned a lot regarding operations and don't suffer from staging shortages or lack of industries. I'm not quite done and have 70 industries with plans and room for about a dozen more on two levels. Did I say that I like switching? Right now, I just pick a town to switch and manually stage cars in the staging yard and go for it. I am however, loading everything into a switching program on the computer that will allow for computer generation of switch-lists based on a multitude of variables, like siding length, car type, commodities, frequency and other factors. I do know that there are others on this forum that do switching and might also be interested in sharing knowledge. In the meantime, you could always visit your (kidding of course) Coffee Shop and ask specific questions there.

Willie
 
The Opsig Yahoo Group is almost all operations. MRH has an operations forum.

Outside of the OpSig forum, you will find any of the other sites with an operations forum are the least active on the sites. The key to having a good operations forum is having a critical mass of operations oriented people willing to share on the forum. Forums that are specifically oriented to beginners and non-scale trains or forums with a not very active membership tend not to have that critical mass. Also realize that there are people who think they understand what real railroads do (but don't) and a lot of variation to what railroads do. There are flat wrong answers and divergent answers (gotta love the internet).

Do you need an operations forum or does it need to be part of a prototype forum? Is operations a separate thing or is a part or foundational to many things? Could go either way. One downside of separate forums is it reduces the visibility. If I focus on the ops forum and somebody asks a ops question on the general forum, the ops oriented people might not see it. If somebody asks an ops question on the layout design forum because they want to know how to arrange signals and switches, people focused on the ops forum might miss it.

Any way it ends up. operations is one of my favorite subjects.
 
Right now my operations consist of moving cars about the layout in a prototypical manner. I use KD magnets for uncoupling and the KD couplers need to be adjusted to the maximum working level in order for them to operate properly using the magnets. I'm opposed to using the wooden stick approach to uncoupling.

I plan to remove rolling stock from the layout and as I remove the cars, test each car's couplers and at the same time I'll start an inventory of the rolling stock as I did for my locomotive fleet.

My plan to operation is at best a primitive form, but I'm just one person having fun running trains.

Alan is correct in that the NMRA OPSIG group is geared directly towards model railroad operations, but on the other hand, Mark has a point for the creation of an Operations Forum to be added to the Model Trains Forum for the Forum members to share operation tips, methods and how they conduct an operating session. Even including photos in the Threads of Forum showing model railroaders having fun during an Operation session and at the same time the photos allow Forum members to see other members layouts.

Thanks.

Greg
 
It just dawned on me that my concerns for the buried threads was misplaced, since this forum has a new or active threads feature, people just generally viewing would see the most current stuff when they viewed the current threads.

Never mind.
 
Part of operations is adapting to the limits of your track plan also. Real railroads have the same limits with their track. I just made an adjustment to my operations to account for a lack of an interchange track in one direction.

North bound trains pick/leave cars on two sidings and the house track. Now that I have a more powerful steam locomotive for the way freights, they do the trailing point switching. Local switch engines do the facing point moves and the branch traffic.

That's one of the other things about operations. You can end up tweaking the process.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk
 
I'm thinking an operations forum would be a good addition. Don't know how much work it is for admin however might be worth the effort. I have been in and out of the hobby over the last 40 years and it was not until the last year that I was even interested in operation. Primarily because i was never exposed to it until now. I belong to a round robin group of modelers who live for operations and it changed my whole perspective on layout design.
 
Odyknuck said:
I belong to a round robin group of modelers who live for operations and it changed my whole perspective on layout design.
Click to expand...

One of the challenges to having a separate "operations" forum, operations affects and is affected by track design, it affects and is affected by the choice of rolling stock, it affects and is affected by the choice of electrical and electronics selected. Basically everything in the "Project Room" is also touched by "operations". Expect there to be cross posting where the topics overlap. Not saying not to do it, just setting expectations.
 
dave1905 said:
One of the challenges to having a separate "operations" forum, operations affects and is affected by track design, it affects and is affected by the choice of rolling stock, it affects and is affected by the choice of electrical and electronics selected. Basically everything in the "Project Room" is also touched by "operations". Expect there to be cross posting where the topics overlap. Not saying not to do it, just setting expectations.
Click to expand...

Dave1905, I don't see any of what you list as being huge, insurmountable problems, as far as having an Operations Forum is concerned. What is it you feel to be problems that couldn't be talked out in a forum. I would agree with you, if this is what you are saying, that it is far better to actually visit and participate in an operating session. If I knew of such activity, I would certainly try to hook up with a group doing operations. Maybe this would be a good way for an Operations Forum to work, by putting people in contact with others involved in operations!
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I planned on operations right from the beginning when I built my layout. My freelance railroad is a short line/branch line that connects to two other railroads, the Milwaukee Road and the Northern Pacific. I wanted to model wither one of these railroads, but with the space I had available, even part of a subdivision would have been hard.

The layout was built mainly for switching. I have 20 some rail customers along the main line, with four towns on the layout. I am modeling the area where I live and chose industries that were actually in the area, or could have been. I chose the transition era as I do enjoy both steam and first generation diesels.

The layout is a point to point layout, with a yard and engine servicing facility at each end. I also have hidden staging tracks that is used to store trains as well as allowing for continuous running.

For me a typical operating session would start wit bringing a train "on stage" from the hidden staging area. This train would go to one of the two yards where it would be broken down. A switch er would then make up a train to service rail customers along the main line. All of the towns have a switching problem purposely built into them.

I tried to choose industries that could service other industries within the lhe layout as well as shipping freight out of the area. Cattle pens supply cattle which are taken to a meat packing plant where beef is shipped out of the area. I have a number of grain elevators which supply grain to a mill which in turn ships outbound freight. A log loading deck supplies logs to a lumber mill. The mill not only ships lumber out of the area, but also supplies lumber yards and a furniture factory on the layout.

After the local freight train delivers inbound cars and picks up outbound cars or empties, it will return to one of the two yards where the cars would be sorted and an outbound train assembled. The outbound train would the head "off stage" into the hidden staging tracks later to become an inbound train at a later date.

I am a lone operator so an operating session could last over four hours depending on the industries being serviced. I also enjoy passenger trains, but unfortunately, long streamliners wouldn't really have shown up so I do run local passenger service with short trains of usually two cars plus a tourist train that I can use my Northern Pacific passenger cars from the north Coast limited. It would take passengers from the connection with the Northern Pacific south to West Yellowstone, MT where passengers could go to Yellowstone Park.

I wasn't completely sure how this plan would work when the layout was started, but after years of use, it has worked out quite well.
 
Expect a broad range of ideas on what "operations" mean to different people. For some operations is how to get trains to run, for others its simulating how a prototype railroad functions. It also ranges from how the main track authority is granted (TT&TO, CTC, TWC, DTC, OCS, yard limits, ABS, etc) to how the cars are routed across the railroad (car cards, tag on car, switch lists, computer switch lists, waybills, etc).
 
By operations, I don't mean how to get trains to run and I would doubt many people would think that would be the definition of "Operations". A Forum about "Operations" should be about simulating how the prototypes function. Dave1905, we all tend to use abbreviations and acronyms far too often and I think in some cases to purposely confuse; or, be esoteric with our use of them. TT&TO = Time Table and Train Order, CTC = Centralized Traffic Control and ABS = Automatic Block Control. Can I ask you to spell out what TWC. DTC., OCS stand for? I do understand Car Cards and Way Bills, Tags and Switch Lists hand written; or, computer generated.

You seem to object to the idea of there being an Operations Forum here on the Model Railroad Forum; or, at least you seem to feel the idea has to many stumbling blocks to be successful! Maybe your right; but, I think it would be better to at least try!
 
Last edited by a moderator:
montanan said:
I planned on operations right from the beginning when I built my layout. My freelance railroad is a short line/branch line that connects to two other railroads, the Milwaukee Road and the Northern Pacific. I wanted to model wither one of these railroads, but with the space I had available, even part of a subdivision would have been hard.

The layout was built mainly for switching. I have 20 some rail customers along the main line, with four towns on the layout. I am modeling the area where I live and chose industries that were actually in the area, or could have been. I chose the transition era as I do enjoy both steam and first generation diesels.

The layout is a point to point layout, with a yard and engine servicing facility at each end. I also have hidden staging tracks that is used to store trains as well as allowing for continuous running.

For me a typical operating session would start wit bringing a train "on stage" from the hidden staging area. This train would go to one of the two yards where it would be broken down. A switch er would then make up a train to service rail customers along the main line. All of the towns have a switching problem purposely built into them.

I tried to choose industries that could service other industries within the lhe layout as well as shipping freight out of the area. Cattle pens supply cattle which are taken to a meat packing plant where beef is shipped out of the area. I have a number of grain elevators which supply grain to a mill which in turn ships outbound freight. A log loading deck supplies logs to a lumber mill. The mill not only ships lumber out of the area, but also supplies lumber yards and a furniture factory on the layout.

After the local freight train delivers inbound cars and picks up outbound cars or empties, it will return to one of the two yards where the cars would be sorted and an outbound train assembled. The outbound train would the head "off stage" into the hidden staging tracks later to become an inbound train at a later date.

I am a lone operator so an operating session could last over four hours depending on the industries being serviced. I also enjoy passenger trains, but unfortunately, long streamliners wouldn't really have shown up so I do run local passenger service with short trains of usually two cars plus a tourist train that I can use my Northern Pacific passenger cars from the north Coast limited. It would take passengers from the connection with the Northern Pacific south to West Yellowstone, MT where passengers could go to Yellowstone Park.

I wasn't completely sure how this plan would work when the layout was started, but after years of use, it has worked out quite well.
Click to expand...


Chet, what you've described is pretty much how I do it.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
A loopy layout will get boring...fast...but remember a model railroad is never done, you can always nudge things, try to throw in an industry, make a change here or there, sooner or later your layout will fine tune to something better, but getting trains up and running ain't bad either, but you learn as you go. For me and modeling N&W etc, heavy coal trains don't move fast up hill and so on so my trains would often -crawl- with long trains. I like a layout with an -experience-.
 
So that people do not become confused over what we mean by "Operations", maybe it's time for a new word to describe what "Operations" means? The confusion starts with people understandably being confused by the fact that Operation can mean simply running a train around your layout! However, I think the ideal word for describing "Operations" is the word "Operations"! We could describe simply running trains through your layout as "Running Trains".

I don't see re-naming the word, happening! I'm not confused by the word "Operations" and a doubt many others are, either. If they are confused and the discussion on the thread is about what we are referring to as "Operations", they will soon enough pick-up what the thread is about.
 
NP2626 said:
By operations, I don't mean how to get trains to run and I would doubt many people would think that would be the definition of "Operations".
Click to expand...

You'd be surprised.

A Forum about "Operations" should be about simulating how the prototypes function. You seem to object to the idea of there being an Operations Forum here on the Model Railroad Forum; or, at least you seem to feel the idea has to many stumbling blocks to be successful! Maybe your right; but, I think it would be better to at least try!
Click to expand...

While I agree with you, you should be prepared for other interpretations of what operations mean. My comments aren't intended to say not to start one, just to set expectations based on years of following operations forums. Operations is the sum of most of the aspects of a railroad. How many things are added in varies by the individual modeler. In many cases there is no one right answer because the railroads came up with a lot of individual solutions. Having said that the underlying concepts are the same. The key is to understand the underlying concepts then appreciate the little variations that provide color to individual situations.

Dave1905, we all tend to use abbreviations and acronyms far too often and I think in some cases to purposely confuse; or, be esoteric with our use of them. TT&TO = Time Table and Train Order, CTC = Centralized Traffic Control and ABS = Automatic Block Control. Can I ask you to spell out what TWC. DTC., OCS stand for? I do understand Car Cards and Way Bills, Tags and Switch Lists hand written; or, computer generated.
Click to expand...

TWC - Track warrant control, the system or authority that replaced train orders on most of the US in and around 1985. Authority is granted verbally over limits defined by the dispatcher.
DTC - Direct traffic control, trains are verbally authorized in fixed blocks. Operates almost the same as a "mother may I" operation on a conventional DC layout.
OCS - Occupancy Control System, Canadian TWC.
ABS - Automatic block system, signal system where the signal indicate track occupancy and requires another system to authorize movement (TT&TO, TWC, DTC, OCS). Variants my be called APB, Automatic Permissive Block.
Rule 251 - Current of traffic, double track, train operate in one direction on each track, ABS signal indication and a clearance authorize movement.
Might as well throw in manual block and interlockings.
 
First of all, Thanks dave1905 for clarifying all your acronyms!!

Yes, if you have questions it would appear that Dave1905 may have answers for you. If this where a thread in a forum dedicated to "OPERATIONS", I would describe how I am going about operating my layout at this time. However, it is not, so I am hesitant. However, I will consider possibly doing this.

However, I would like to request from the owners/moderators of Model Railroad Forum to consider making a new forum; or, inform us of why they do not feel this to be a good idea! Lets hear from others on what you think of the idea?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
dave1905 said:
So who has a question?
Click to expand...

I do, I do, I do. Hey Dave, are you the same Dave H. who put together the Car Cards program many years ago? I loved that program and still used it as recently as three years ago. I'm in limbo right now while I struggle to complete my latest and last layout, but I still use it for inventory purposes. I probably got it from the OpSig website in the late 90's or early 00's, but I don't go back there anymore because some of the folks got too haughty. I have added to it for some of my own purposes.

Willie
 
You must log in or register to reply here.



Back
Top