O Gauge DC or AC


fairbro

Member
I am trying to test this diesel, it is O-gauge, and weighs in at a good 6.5 pounds. Looks clean. It runs on DC voltage, right? When I touch one lead from the transformer to the right-side wheel, and the other lead to the other wheel, nothing happens. This could be because A) the engine doesn't work or B) I'm using the wrong transformer. I think the transformer should be at least 12 volts, right? But does it have to be a certain wattage to power this big old boy?

I tried using a little "Life-Like" transformer, and a small TYCO transformer, but no luck. The transformers are good, I test them for variable DC voltage. Do I need to get another transformer with more watts?

Thanks for any tips.

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I am no expert on O scale locos, but the reddish wheels may not be conductive. Using your photo as a guide, apply one lead to the lower wheels on the right truck and the other lead to the upper wheels on the left truck. Also, I may be wrong on this, but I thought all O scale was AC...again, that may only apply to three rail O. Someone else will chime in soon.

Willie
 
Golly, Golly! I used to have several of those big fellows. It's from All- Nation .. an F-3 model. That one is in GREAT shape and they are practicable indestructible.

Willie is on the right track .. they are DC. Look for the "reddish" fiber type insulator on one side of where the wheel attaches to the axel. If I remember correctly, all the insulator wheels should be on the same side of the locomotive. One motor brush connects to the wipers on the insulated wheels - the other motor brush connects to the frame.

If I remember - they operate 12-16 volts and 1-2 amps. Its been 40 years, hope I remember that much?

ADD: I see the "reddish" wheels that Willie is talking about. If the trucks are insulated from the frame (looks like) then one truck will be positive and the other truck negative, so the insulated wheels will be on opposite sides.
 
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I tried connecting the leads to the two non-red wheels, but no go. Connecting to the red wheels, I get some pretty sparks...

The little TYCO transformer I am is using is rated at 18V DC and 6 VA, which, I read, means 6/18 or 1/3 amp...but this type of engine operates at 1-2 amps? So maybe I need bigger transformer...
 
Probably the best way to determine is to take the shell off. Then you could see how the electrical feeds are connected to the motor.
Also, it will allow you to touch the transformer leads directly to the brushes - even 1/3 amp should get the motor to turn (unloaded).
Hope this helps.
 
Probably the best way to determine is to take the shell off. Then you could see how the electrical feeds are connected to the motor.
Also, it will allow you to touch the transformer leads directly to the brushes - even 1/3 amp should get the motor to turn (unloaded).
Hope this helps.

I didn't want to do that, because the carpet eats those little bolts for tasty afternoon snack, but this time I found it before the pile rug could swallow...

Put the leads all around the armature, got it it turn. Turns smoothly, but slow. Maybe because there's not enough power?
 
I would say that it is the most likely the reason. At least, with the shell off, you can determine from whence it gets it's juice from. They are awesome locomotives and will pull the paint off the walls!

When I was a lad ... I read that a set of those "F's" pulled a long freight for over 7 non-stop 24 hour days, without stopping, at a display at the Wisconsin Dells.
 
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In response - two questions
I have a 1947 Lionel Locomotive (2-4-2) # 1654 w/tender and whistle
Question One - is this locomotive AC or DC
Question Two - Will the Lionel CW80 work correctly with this engine

thank you
rdeal
 
fairbro I know nothing about your locomotive, sorry I can't help, but Sherrel is a good and reliable source. You are in good hands.

rdeal
1 it's ac
2 the cw80 will work, but you must watch to see if the motor in the locomotive overheats. The new electronic transformers can cause some older locomotives to overheat.
 
It runs on DC voltage, right?
As general information. One can tell if a simple permanent magnet motor is DC or AC by looking at the commutator (where the brushes rub). If they are split so the brushes rub one and then the other (usually directly across from one another) it is DC. If they are offset such that each brush rubs only one ring it is AC.

On your model it looks like the brushes are directly across from each other. I don't see any splits in the commutator, but I'm guessing they are there.
 
fairbro: ""2 the cw80 will work, but you must watch to see if the motor in the locomotive overheats. The new electronic transformers can cause some older locomotives to overheat.""

please help - - what transformer should i use or how should i set the CW80 to work properly with the '47 engine

thanks- rdeal
 
rdeal
I would try the CW80. From what I have heard most old locomotives have no problems a few others can over heat. Nobody has explained the specifics of why they overheat. All I know it has something to do with the sinewave of electronic transformers. Electronic transformers don't produce a symmetrical (is that the right word?) sinewave. They go up smooth but tend to chop off at the end. Help me out here Iron Horsemen.

Run the locomotive with the CW-80, any setting will be ok, be sure not to run it too fast and have it fly off the track. After running a few (5-15) minutes put your hand as close to the motor as possible to see if you can feel excessive heat. I would think you could feel the heat on the bottom of the frame under the motor, but I don't have any older steam engines to know for sure. In the worst case take the shell off and feel the motor itself. The new CW80 is a very smooth transformer. I use 4 of them. I have never had any problems with my older locomotives but none of mine are older then 1974.

You can buy refurbished post-war Lionel transformers The old ZW is very easy to come by, but buy one from a reputable dealer to be sure it has been properly restored. You can get a list of authorized Lionel service centers from Lionel http://www.lionel.com/dealers The ZWs run about $200 and up. But you can get others for less. http://www.modeltrainstuff.com/Lionel-O-Classic-Lionel-90-Watt-Transformer-p/lio-1033.htm

Many people replace old transformers with the CW80 it is very common and they have no trouble at all, the occasional locomotive will overheat, but it is rare. I wish somebody would explain the cause of over heating in detail, but I have yet to hear that.
 
Nobody has explained the specifics of why they overheat. All I know it has something to do with the sinewave of electronic transformers. Electronic transformers don't produce a symmetrical (is that the right word?) sinewave. They go up smooth but tend to chop off at the end.
OK I'll try.

Part 1. Motors have coils. The only reason a motor (or any coil for that matter) has resistance at all is because the coil produces a magnetic field that generates its own feedback (back emf). Each time power is supplied the magnetic field has to be built up, as the power goes away it collapses. AC motors create and collapse this field 60 times per second in the US, 50 times in Europe. Depending on the design of the coil, the core of the coil, the size, shape, and material of the wire will determine how much heat is generated in this process. (As an aside, yes - square wires actually make better coils than round ones. The best stereo speakers have square wire in their coils.)

Part 2. Straight AC power has a sign wave that will rise to a maximum of the track voltage. Full throttle will be 18 volts, half throttle will be 9 volts.

Part 3. As Bruette said the power coming from the new electronic power supplies is not a real sign wave. It goes up smoothly, but it goes up to the full 18 volts every single wave. To provide less power to the track the duration of the wave is cut short (chopped). So at half throttle, instead of the power going up to 9 volts and then coming down (lets say it took 1/120th of a second to do that), it goes up to a full 18 volts (but only for 1/240th of a second). This provides the same 1/2 power but it is doing it by limiting the amount of current that can get to the track in that smaller amount of time. The slower the throttle setting the more like "pulse" power this is.

SO - Motors overheat because the are being slammed with full power 120 times a second (positive and negative). In general nothing likes to be slammed with power. The motor has to build the entire magnetic field for a full 18V each time. Plus many of these motors do not have fixed magnets but use electro-magnets which have to do the same thing with their coils. Certain designs are more forgiving or can dissipate the heat better, others simply overheat.

This is very similar to what people experience with coreless motors and DCC decoders. The decoders produce pulses rather than nice smooth DC power the motors were designed to operate off of.

The reason all this happens is that because it is very easy to produce an electronic circuit that generates pulses and very hard to make one that produces a wave (a reason the term "'good' digital music" is an oxymoron).

And then a rant. The whole reason Lionel, Marx, and American Flyer originally went with AC power was because the supplies could be built cheaper. No need to use expensive silicon rectifiers. Now that diodes are so cheap, they have to be spending much more than that trying to create and deal with the problems caused by this pulsed AC power substitute. With the imbedded base of historical locomotives out there, why they don't just spend the money and design a true sine wave output unit is beyond me. Since there is only 1 frequency the fourier transformation for it has to be well documented and associated circuits in use by power conversion companies all over the world.
 
Try? No, that is a slam dunk!!! Perfect explanation in my book. Thanks and now you guys see why I call the Iron Horsemen the Professor!

You also summed up what many Post-war Lionel guys are thinking and the reason the old ZW transformer is still in high demand. The latest incarnation of Lionel is mostly concerned with modern Lionel. As a member of the Lionel Railroaders Club (LRRC) and now that the LRRC has merged with the Lionel Collectors Club of America (LCCA) I see many active members are just as involved with the Post-war trains as they are with the modern stuff, maybe even more so!

The reason I did not renew my membership to the LCCA before the merger was because the LCCA magazine has much more information about Post-war Lionel then modern Lionel trains. Even the other magazines like Classic Toy Trains are focused heavily on Post-war trains. Now I am stuck with the LCCA/LRRC because only a member can order the annual Christmas boxcar.

Iron Horsemen I agree with your "rant" I don't see it as a rant. You would think somebody would fill the need for a new modern "old school" transformer, 2 coils a primary and a secondary. I bet they would sell. Does somebody already make one? I guess I should start winding wire and counting the turns.
 
You TWO have completely blown away my mind!
Electricity has always been a weak spot in my mind. Back in the late 60's and then the 70's, I used to build my own transformers for DC using a transformer, variak?, rectifier? I cannot even remember the sequence of the parts today, but they were very smooth and I could also have pluse power with the flip of a switch. Today, I wish that I had "saved" one of them just to be able to remember how they were assembled.

I am ashamed of my puny knowledge of electricity even though I have wired two houses in my life and only had ONE receptable that I had to swap wires on. 110/220 I can handle O.K., however DCC, decoders, and such - my mind shorts out on.

Thanks for this post .. think I need to do some serious study.
 
Sherrel don't sell your self short, modesty is a common trait in this great forum. How about that for making this place a rare place indeed!? You bring a wealth of knowledge and more importantly experience to a variety of topics.

The Iron Horsemen has blown me away with his knowledge more then once, including this time! Don't feel bad I bet you and I are not the only ones he has schooled.
 
Oh, LOUIS, It's not that I have to work at "selling myself short" -- it just comes naturally - LoL.
I just wish that I would have tried to learn a little more when I was younger rather than always in pursuit of the birds! (and I don't mean the O's or Blue Jay's either)
 



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