Newbie needs a Xmas train with a future

[tppytel]

Hi all! Probably like a lot of you, when I was a kid we had an O scale Lionel train running around the tree during the holidays. Despite the fact that it was (even to my 7-year old self) a cheap set that ran poorly, I always loved setting it up and operating it. So of course I'd like to start my 2-year old twins along a similar path, as they're big "choo-choo" fans already and have lots of fun with their wooden set.

I would personally love to have an HO or N scale layout - I always wanted one and have done some other kinds of modeling, construction, and electrical work in other hobbies. But I recognize that this might not work so well with toddlers that will knock over cars and generally not understand the idea of "look but don't touch". So I'll hold on to that idea until they get a little bigger. For the moment, I need something more durable (and easier to see), so I'm figuring O scale is the way to go. (Comments welcome if you disagree.)

However, I've done a bit of research and browsing and am quickly realizing that, especially at O scale, there's a vast gulf in price and presumably quality between the ~$200 complete Christmas tree sets and "real" model railroading trains. I'd like to buy something that a) will run well, and b) will provide a nice foundation for a set we can build over the next few years and possibly lead into more serious modeling when the kids get bigger. But while I'm not averse to spending money in the long term, I really can't justify spending several hundred dollars just on a locomotive in addition to all the other stuff you need to get rolling. Hence I'm looking for suggestions for some kind of middle ground.

My current thought is this... my mom still has the old set kicking around the attic. The loco, track, and power are trashed, but perhaps I could at least use the rolling stock for the moment, just to get going? Would the coupling be compatible with current engines? I don't have the set handy, but it's a knuckle-type coupler that seemed to be pretty standard in the 80's. If I could reuse the rolling stock for now, could I get a decent engine, enough track to run around the tree, and a very basic control system for, say, $300? Then we could buy a new piece or two every year and maybe upgrade the loco and control system eventually. Perhaps by the time the kids are 5 or 6, we could have a nice set that could lead them into helping build a real HO or N layout.

Any thoughts as to whether the above is possible? Or if not, any alternate suggestions that won't break the bank but still have a future? I'm not averse to buying used stuff, but I don't feel knowledgeable enough to make good choices there. As far as the engine and company are concerned, I'm partial to steam engines myself, probably early 20th century passenger service. I live in Chicago, so something appropriate to a local company like CNW would be a plus. It doesn't look like there's a huge selection of companies in O scale, especially in the lower price range, but I figure I can always reletter if I want to. I found this Atlantic from Industrial Rail, which looks like the bargain division of Atlas:

https://secure.atlasrr.com/ato1/itemdesc.asp?ic=10080011&eq=&Tp=

That looks like a relative steal at $160 and would presumably fit in my budget after buying track and a controller. But I have no idea whether it's worth it or not. Any comments or alternate suggestions? Again, I have no problems upgrading the engine in the next couple years and don't need anything high-end right now, just something decent enough to get started that won't be total junk.

Thanks for any help you can provide.

 

[TaeOH]

Well I definitely encourage you to start somewhere. If I had the space, I would probably do O or S for everything, but I don't so that is why I am in N scale for my hobby modeling. I have a feeling though that I may eventually move up to HO because of my eyesight and fat fingers, I have only been into this a year and already wonder whether I should have invested so much in N.

In any case, my Christmas train is a separate deal altogether, that is Lionel and I am very happy with it. My daughter thinks the train is special since we only set it up during Christmas, and I really like that. We have a Lionel Disney train which gets my wife into it. It is not the basic starter set per se, since it comes with the better transformer. So I would say that all starter sets are not equal and it really does go by how much you pay for the starter set. The more you pay the longer it will be before you need to replace something important just to grow.

If I were looking today, with a toddler I would stick with a Lionel set, but I would look closely at reviews and find the set with the best value in it(very likely not the cheapest starter set). Remember, any train under the tree is a Christmas train, you don't have to buy something like the North Pole Central for it to be a Christmas train. So you can run that train all year round too, especially if you are more into Toy trains instead of Model trains, there is a difference and both are very satisfying.

 

[bob]

I'd suggest finding a local hobby shop you can trust and have them look things over. You say the loco is trashed. What's wrong with it? Does it still run? It may be able to be repaired. If you can make it run again, that may be the best option, that way when your two year old decides to "open 'er up" and the train goes flying off the track, no big deal.

So I'd find a local Lionel service center and at least talk to them about it.

As for the one you linked to, a couple thoughts come to mind.

1) I don't care WHAT the tender says, that is a Pennsylvania RR engine. They're quite distinctive, and I would suggest buying the version with PRR lettering if you do buy it.

2) Who's "Industrial Rail"? Never heard of them, and I have no idea who they are or how good the stuff they make is.. I'd do some research on them and see what quality they are.

 

[UP2CSX]

Rather than trying to resurrect an old O scale train, I'd buy a nice G scale set for around the Christmas tree. You can get one at http://www.modeltrainstuff.com/product_p/bac-90050.htm for not much more than the engine you linked to, and it comes with track, powerpack, and the engine smokes, something that kids love. It's big enough and durable engouhg that the little ones won't easily break it. If they get interested in trains when they get a little older, that would be the time to invest in some quality O or HO scale equipment.

 

[bob]

Here's another option for the younger crowd.

Consider a Thomas the Tank Engine set.
http://www.thomasbooksandtoys.com/shop/sets_Thomas-Sets.html

They have a couple of advantages.

They're designed for young kids, so they are kid friendly. They also hold up well to kid's play.

Another important factor is that they have a high level of play value, especially in some of the larger sets. They have things to load and unload, places to go, things to play with like cranes and bridges and tunnels. This involves kids and their imagination.

I realize that lots of kids spent hours and hours watching Lionel trains circle the tree and loved every minute. I had an HO set, but it was also a simple circle with a passing track. Still, if I'd have had my way, we'd have set it up at Thanksgiving and taken it down oh, about Easter.

However, today's kids seem to have a shorter attention span. They're used to TV and video games and excitement. I don't know that they're quite as good at using their imagination. So a set with added play value, whether that's Thomas or Lego etc, may well be a good choice.

 

[dgwinup]

Rather than trying to resurrect an old O scale train, I'd buy a nice G scale set for around the Christmas tree. You can get one at http://www.modeltrainstuff.com/product_p/bac-90050.htm for not much more than the engine you linked to, and it comes with track, powerpack, and the engine smokes, something that kids love. It's big enough and durable engouhg that the little ones won't easily break it. If they get interested in trains when they get a little older, that would be the time to invest in some quality O or HO scale equipment.

I agree with UP2CSX, IF you have the room! G scale uses 24" radius curves. You'll need more than 4 feet in all directions around the tree.

Other than space requirements, I think G scale is great for the younger kids. You can get a decent running Bachmann set at Hobby Lobby, often under $200 with their 40% off coupon (Look on their website - they post 40% coupons about every other week!). Bachmann sets work well enough for what you want.

O scale is another good option. Check Hobby Lobby for their sets, too. You will still need a fair amount of space for the curves - about 54" across! Even starter sets in O scale are usually good enough to carry over to a bigger layout later on.

In my case, G and O scales took up too much room under the Christmas tree, so I got some On30 scale trains (O scale narrow gauge). They are O scale, but run on HO scale track. The smaller equipment will run on 15" radius curves. On30 also carries over well to a larger, more permanent layout, but narrow gauge modeling is almost a specialty in itself! On30 is a bit more delicate than the regular O scale and G scale. Might not be best for the younger kids.

Another poster recommended Thomas trains. I agree with that, too! Thomas trains are aimed directly at the kids and are very popular. The wooden track variety is especially good for 2 to 6 year olds. Thomas trains are also available in an electrically operated set in HO and N scales, maybe others.

Whatever you do, I applaud your efforts to get the kids interested early.

Good luck! Post some Christmas train pictures when you get them set up!

Darrell, quiet...for now

 

[MichiganMan]

Went through a similar situation - started with a resurrected old 70's vintage Lionel, before a week was out we had the Lionel "Thomas" set. Goes up every year, the kids love it (especially my boy) but we're looking at HO for more serious modeling, just for cost considerations.

 

[tppytel]

Great comments all around. Thanks.

Remember, any train under the tree is a Christmas train, you don't have to buy something like the North Pole Central for it to be a Christmas train.

Oh, no doubt. I'm actually not very keen on candy cane trains and the like. While I don't plan on lecturing my two-year olds about railroad history, I'd much prefer that they connect to the real world as much as is appropriate.

I'd suggest finding a local hobby shop you can trust and have them look things over. You say the loco is trashed. What's wrong with it? Does it still run? It may be able to be repaired. If you can make it run again, that may be the best option, that way when your two year old decides to "open 'er up" and the train goes flying off the track, no big deal.

Good point. I'll take the engine into the shop and see what they have to say. If it could be revived, that would be both low-cost and low-risk when it comes to breakage. But I'm guessing it was a low-end set in the first place, as I never remember the train running well even when it was new. There was lots of pushing to get started, dying in the middle of curves, derailing, sparking, and so on. Last I remember setting it up was maybe 10 years ago and it could barely run at all. So I'm more inclined to get a new, better quality engine. But I'll definitely check out the repair route as an option. Any idea what that sort of work might cost?

1) I don't care WHAT the tender says, that is a Pennsylvania RR engine. They're quite distinctive, and I would suggest buying the version with PRR lettering if you do buy it.

Fair enough. One blurb I read on the engine did mention that it was a PRR prototype.

2) Who's "Industrial Rail"? Never heard of them, and I have no idea who they are or how good the stuff they make is.. I'd do some research on them and see what quality they are.

Any good sites where I should look? I've tried Googling for reviews on a number of different parts, but I haven't gotten much.

Rather than trying to resurrect an old O scale train, I'd buy a nice G scale set for around the Christmas tree. You can get one at http://www.modeltrainstuff.com/product_p/bac-90050.htm for not much more than the engine you linked to, and it comes with track, powerpack, and the engine smokes, something that kids love.

Now that's an interesting suggestion. I had no idea that prices on the G sets were so reasonable. A big train like that would definitely be fun, though a nice thing about O is that it's not so big that you can't add a building or station pretty easily. A G scale building has got to be pretty huge. Has anyone here tried those Bachmann G sets or have a review handy? They have some pretty cool sets there and the prices are quite reasonable.

Here's another option for the younger crowd.

Consider a Thomas the Tank Engine set.
http://www.thomasbooksandtoys.com/shop/sets_Thomas-Sets.html

We have a wooden train set built from Thomas/Maxim/Brio parts already - that's the standard set for the kids to play with. They're great in that role, but not quite what I'd like around the tree.

However, today's kids seem to have a shorter attention span. They're used to TV and video games and excitement. I don't know that they're quite as good at using their imagination. So a set with added play value, whether that's Thomas or Lego etc, may well be a good choice.

Interesting point. Like you, I would have been happy to have our simple circle track set up year-round. But I'm only 32 - it's not like we didn't have transformers and action figures and everything else when we were kids. Something about trains does tend to bring out the imagination, and I'm not sure that's really changed. But yeah... making sure that the train has some cars that do things or having some gates or other scenery wouldn't be a bad idea. That's another reason I'm still kind of leaning towards O scale - it seems like there's more out there for this than G.

I agree with UP2CSX, IF you have the room! G scale uses 24" radius curves. You'll need more than 4 feet in all directions around the tree...
O scale is another good option. Check Hobby Lobby for their sets, too. You will still need a fair amount of space for the curves - about 54" across!

I was thinking about these numbers earlier myself but thought maybe I was misunderstanding something. It's correct that G scale would use a smaller circle than O scale? Seems counterintuitive, but I guess it's a scale vs. gauge thing.

Thanks again for all the suggestions. One other thing I'm figuring out is that there's a huge variation in the prices a given part is sold for. I had just been searching for items at Walthers because it was convenient, but I see now that a lot of those parts are available at other shops for much less than MSRP. If I visit a local shop, what should I expect here? Of course I'd love to support a local shop, but if it's a difference of $100+ vs. buying online... well, that's going to be tough to justify. Anyway, I'll be back a little later with a few more parts I've been looking at - seeing some of the cheaper online prices has opened up a few more possibilities.

 

[UP2CSX]

A local store may have prices pretty close to on-line for the holidays on G scale sets, especially Bachmann. You'd have to factor in sales tax vs. shipping. G scale trains run on HO scale track so it's really narrow guage engines and cars you'd be buying. That's one of the reasons you can have a relatively small circle of track and still run big trains. G scale buildings are not much more, and sometimes cheaper, than O scale buildings, especially those with a Christmas theme. It's a good thing to keep hunting around on-line and locally and see what you come up with. I just think G scale trains make a much nice display around the bottom of a tree than the much smaller O scale trains.

 

[tppytel]

G scale trains run on HO scale track so it's really narrow guage engines and cars you'd be buying. That's one of the reasons you can have a relatively small circle of track and still run big trains.

Are you sure? The references I'm looking at say G gauge is 45mm and standard gauge HO is 16.5mm.

G scale buildings are not much more, and sometimes cheaper, than O scale buildings, especially those with a Christmas theme.

It's not the cost so much as the space required by structures that I'm considering. I remember we had a station or some similar structure for our O scale set. It was decent-sized, but not so big that it got in the way of the other stuff around the tree. I'd think that G scale structures would be big enough to be more of an obstacle.

 

[UP2CSX]

Whoops, my bad. I was thinking of Gn15, which runs on HO scale track. You are correct, the standard Bachmann track is 45 mm. The average oval of 45mm track is about 8', so it is a little larger than O27, but not much.

As far as buildings, I wouldn't be too concerned about exact scale ratios. The typical Christmas village houses that are sold at places like Michaels are large enough to look good without being overpowering. Since this is a Christmas tree layout, you want it to look good but not get too wrapped up in scale measurements. The kids are unlikely to get out a scale ruler and start rivet counting on you.

 

[Western Star]

when I was a kid we had an O scale Lionel train running around the tree during the holidays. .... So of course I'd like to start my 2-year old twins along a similar path, as they're big "choo-choo" fans already and have lots of fun with their wooden set.

I would personally love to have an HO or N scale layout -... For the moment, I need something more durable (and easier to see), so I'm figuring O scale is the way to go.

I started the Christmas Tree train the first year I got married (1981). The first year we put an N-scale loop there. It was so dwarfed by the tree one could not even tell there was a train down there. the next year we switched to O-Scale. The O-scale was our train tree until my son's 2nd year (1984) when a local hobby store went out of business (Downtown Hobbies in Denver) and was closing out the G-Gauge at 75% off. They didn't have much selection but I was able to get a full set plus two extra loco's. Just because everything was so expensive we developed a new plan. We decided to purchase just one additional piece (car, switch, structure) for the set every birthday and Christmas. So more than two decades later the Christmas train has become very elaborate. Even more so when I tell you that we duplicated this concept for each of our children.

We now don't have a Christmas Tree but a Christmas Forest with trains around each and around the entire house. As they move away from home they have a train set to go with them for their "new" family tree.

By the way our G-Gauge is 20.5:1 scale - In other words we are using the g-gauge track for 3 foot narrow gauge (perfect for Colorado).

I've done a bit of research and browsing and am quickly realizing that, especially at O scale, there's a vast gulf in price and presumably quality between the ~$200 complete Christmas tree sets and "real" model railroading trains.

Get just enough cheap stuff to have a working set and then start replacing the units with high quality things through the years (as outlined above).

I'd like to buy something that a) will run well, and b) will provide a nice foundation for a set we can build over the next few years and possibly lead into more serious modeling when the kids get bigger.

Let the train concept be the foundation. Keep Christmas Tree trains just for that purpose.

My current thought is this... my mom still has the old set kicking around the attic. The loco, track, and power are trashed, but perhaps I could at least use the rolling stock for the moment, just to get going?

Yup good plan.

Would the coupling be compatible with current engines?

Even if not take one of the cars and change the coupler on one end so it transitions the couplers from one type to the other..

If I could reuse the rolling stock for now, could I get a decent engine, enough track to run around the tree, and a very basic control system for, say, $300? Then we could buy a new piece or two every year and maybe upgrade the loco and control system eventually. Perhaps by the time the kids are 5 or 6, we could have a nice set that could lead them into helping build a real HO or N layout.

Yup yup yup, exactly what I did without originally planning it that way.

I found this Atlantic from Industrial Rail, which looks like the bargain division of Atlas: That looks like a relative steal at $160 and would presumably fit in my budget after buying track and a controller. But I have no idea whether it's worth it or not. Any comments or alternate suggestions?

While I have not had any experience with that specific line, in my experience Atlas has never produced a "junk" line like several other vendors. In fact, when you first mentioned the name it scared me a bit. There are HO scale "Industrial" brand cars that are really cheapo. I don't think this is the same. Personally I trust Atlas.

 

[dgwinup]

I just measured some Bachmann G scale track left over from my train room shelf layout. A half circle of track measures 48" across, center-to-center.

IIRC, the smallest radius available in O scale track is 27", called O27, or 54" across a half circle.

So, yes, the O scale has a larger diameter than the G scale.

If you've got the room, I'd recommend G scale, especially for younger kids. They're big and easy for little hands to work with. The Bachmann sets aren't very expensive and the quality is good enough for what you want.

For use under a tree, N scale is really too small. HO is better, but still on the small side. O scale gets to the size that everyone can see it under the tree and open cars, like gondolas and flat cars, can be used to "deliver" presents! G scale is like O scale, except the presents can be bigger!! LOL

If I get it finished this year, I'll have an On30 loop under the tree. I'll still have my N scale circle IN the tree! I've put the N scale in the tree for several years. One year, it wasn't working so I left it out. Boy, did I hear about that! So it HAS to be in the tree again! Here's a photo of the N scale loop in my tree:

No photos of the On30 since I haven't started it yet!

Good luck and may I be the first to wish you a Merry Christmas!

Darrell, quiet...for now

 

[vato loco]

I like the G scale Idea! Space won't be a problem if you build a out-door G scale layout in addition to a small in-door one! Best of all worlds.....and a great way to get kids into Gardening and make yard work more enjoyable! Just my two cents!

 

[Western Star]

IIRC, the smallest radius available in O scale track is 27", called O27, or 54" across a half circle.

So, yes, the O scale has a larger diameter than the G scale.

No, that is incorrect. O27 is 27" diameter not radius. Standard O-gauge is 31" diameter.

G-Gauge comes in several sizes. The smallest standard LGB size forms a 1100mm diameter. This is about 43.25" I prefer their medium size which makes a circle approximately 5' in diameter. Unfortunately they never made a "medium" turnout to match.