Layout Take 3... ??


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Chas_SC_Kev

Member
EDIT: I APPOLOGIZE FOR THE QUALITY OF THE SCAN, FILE SIZE IS AN ISSUE

Well, it’s me again. Long absences seem to be my thing. Work keeps me busy in spurts so my creative energy’s get pulled away from model railroading. During those absences, I’m still reading and lurking in the forums, I’m still scouring magazines when they come in the mail, and I’m continuing to become more familiar with the cad programs. To date I’d say that I’m relatively happy with my progress. I’ve come along way from my first and second plans (refer to this old thread http://www.modelrailroadforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6661 ).

I’m by no means there yet, but I’m not sure that I can do too much better with solo layout planning without some real world experience. I really wish that the local club was a bit more inviting. My couple of visits there were… interesting. My attempts to engage the locals in conversation were disappointing to say the least. Not a very talkative bunch. I won’t bore anyone by rehashing all of my givens and druthers (see the link above if your curious), but I will point out what makes me happy, and not so happy, about this plan.

-I love the space, the wife seems willing to consider the option of letting me have the entire bonus room over the garage. A fairly large heated/cooled space to house my train. More than many can ask for I know, and I am grateful for it. The size intimidates me a bit, but I’m looking at this as a life long project. Heck, I’ve been in the learning/ reading/ planning stage for nearly 2 years now. I’m young enough that ‘life long’ and living the rest of my days in the same house are by no means compatible. But I do love Charleston, wouldn’t trade the last 5 years for any other town. The house is a good size for me and wife, and if we accidently spawn, then there is room for the little one too (all without impacting the model empire). I hope to make the bench work modular… the wife will have to understand that the new house needs an equivalent, or larger space)

-I don’t feel I’ve crammed every available space with railroad. I want there to be room between scenes, I want to see trees and ponds, and I want sidings to be long enough to hold more than 4 cars without blocking a turnout.

-There is NO continuous running… that bothers me. I really want the port to be the first thing to the top left of the plan, and maintaining a minimum 15” radius makes a loop in that area tough. I had to make a choice and continuous running was the looser?

- There is staging, and when compared to my previous plans, there is lots of it. 6 tracks to the left side of the layout, and an additional 4 tracks to the far right at the interchange yard with another railroad… ok, so maybe a an interchange yard is streatching the concept of staging just a bit… but again… sacrifices right? There is a window to the side with the interchange, so the shelf is much narrower in that area.

- No reach is too long. Rarely ever will I have to reach more than 2.5 ft for a derailed car. Isles are fairly roomy

- I love the yard… I’m no expert, but I’ve got an arrival deliver track… a bypass to the ladder back, its double ended, 2 track leads each servicing a sub yard (3 tracks each), the ability for sub yard A to leave cars in B for its switcher to pick up, and 3 rip/storage tracks, that can be accessed with out fouling sorting operations or the mainline.

I know there are other things that be tweaked with the curves of the bench work, & I haven’t assigned all industries. I mentioned the port in front of the scenery barrier for the staging yards. The others are up for grabs. I have ideas of what I would like to model, but have not assigned it a spot yet.

I’m hoping from input from the masses on the track plan and ways to improve it. (Will I get bored, are my passing sidings in the wrong place etc. Then I will move on to assigning elevations, industries and start more in-depth planning of what I want the final scenes to be.

All input is welcome input… Good or brutally honest and bad.
 
Wow, nice empire you're going to have there. I've been to Charleston a few times and it's really charming as long as the hurricanes stay away. :(

Seems like much too large a space not have continuous running. What kind of radius would you end up with if you used flex track to make a loop from the outside track going to the port yard and back the mainline just before the ladder track on the bottom yard? You could run a siding from that track up the other side of the divider, replacing part of the siding now shown. It seems like you have enough aisle space to run a small addition to the lower left corner out to 4', thereby giving you enough room for 22" radius curves. I know you're a structural engineer so right angles are appealing but you could even add a section that would follow your return curve out if you wanted to minimize intrusion in the aisle way. I'm sure there's a way to do this with the space you have. Just think outside of the box on this one. :)
 
Looks like a good start. I would keep working on it till you get continues running in the plan. It also looks like you have a reach from the ails to the back of the yard of over two feet. If that is the case I would rethink that. I have a section of my layout that is 24" wide and 48" off the floor and it is the most I can reach without wiping out things along the front edge. If I was to start over I wouldn't go over 18". I would also decide how long most trains are going to be and make sure the passing sidings are long enough.
 
Attached is a little better print out and scan...

I've got some remarks written on them and would like to know everyones thoughts...

-staging/reversing loop on the second level with an expanded port scene..
-Double yard by eliminating 2 industries
-Steel mill with lots of switching on Top end of layout.

- other smaller revisions planned
 
The frustration of layout planning continues for me I’m ashamed to admit. I have been in the track planning phase for well over 2 years now. I wouldn’t say the excessive delay is due to indecisiveness, but more due to constant maturing and evolution of existing ideas. It’s also been delayed in part because I’ve come to realize I’m not very good at track planning. In-fact my best efforts have changed very little from what I originally posted on this thread. I studied every plan I could get my hands on. I’ve found the parts of each that I like, and the parts I don’t like, but I’ve yet to develop a plan that makes me happy.

My question to those of you out there is simple… does anyone have any experience with services that charge to develop plans for you? If so, did you get what you wanted, or were you left still feeling like your plan isn’t quite right? Were they responsive, did they really care about what you wanted or did you feel like they were forcing ideas onto you? And lastly, did you have to cash in your life savings for the service?

I feel that the information I could provide them is quite detailed. I’ve seen enough of Spacemouses posts to have learned my lessons about thinking ahead… and I like his given and druthers concepts. Could/should they generate a good plan for me with the following information:

Warning... long-ish read !!!

Givens
1) 19’-8” (East West) by 11’-1” (North-south) room with entrance in Northwest corner. Window centered in east wall(Sketch available)
2) Ceiling has “A-frame” shape. (sketch available)

Strong druthers
1) Emphasis on freight operations (passenger could be eliminated all together).
2) Freelanced railroad, with no implied feelings that I have adhere to a specific prototypes scenes or rolling stock. It should however be similar in nature to CSX or N/S in the Georgia/Carolinas.
3) Port scene as major visual draw on layout.
4) Large yard capable of building fairly long trains (12-20 cars)
5) Point to point style operation, with some ability to continuous run possibly through hidden tracks/staging tracks
6) Ample staging tracks on lower deck.
7) N scale to achieve my goal of long trains. I would prefer HO, but don’t want my trains leaving one town and arriving in another at the same time.

Lesser druthers
1) Scenic divide on peninsulas to seemingly increase the mainline length.
2) Interchange with either CSX or N/S with small interchange yard.
3) Siding tracks positioned logically for easy run-around operation and long enough to accommodate my train lengths, but not so much that operation is dull.
4) A railroad that will be a LONG term project. Bench work and track will go in quickly relatively speaking. Stand in for industries can suffice while scenery Is placed and more permanent structures eventually show up over the next couple of decades
5) Single track mainline.

Vision
I see my railroad serving the coastal plains of South Carolina in the mid 80’s to present day setting. It stretches from the ocean and Port towns like Charleston or Georgetown, and extends to the capital of Columbia. Only small towns and industry are present between the main cities. Curves would be conventional to broad on all mainlines and cross through varying types of terrain. The freelanced line would be called Lowcountry Rail Lines. And the terrain it traverses would represent the low country area. Coastal marshes, low lying woodlands, inland swamps, numerous small creeks and rivers, and finally the sand hills of the Columbia area. The terrain by nature is flat, you could drive 20 miles and not change 20 ft of elevation. So the visual interest created by vertical changes would be from river crossings, grade separations to small streets, and causeways built up through swamps and marshes. The layout will have plenty of small industries clumped in areas, but will have large areas which are just a single track surrounded by scenery. Trains will feel like they travel, not leaving one town and entering another simultaneously. I want to feel like my trains are going somewhere surrounded by the ever present southern pine. Specialty cars are present for unloading a variety of special shipments arriving at the port. Intermodal and container traffic is commonplace. Industry are peppermills, steel mills, concrete precasters, laminates, textile mills and similar. All are industries commonplace to SC and the surrounding states.

That’s the short version of my vision. I have a binder full magazine cut outs of ideas that may make good “scenes” But like I’ve stated earlier. I just don’t have the knowhow to pull it all together. Maybe a “Professional” can better deliver. But I’m hesitant to invest the $$ to find out with out getting outside opinions of others who may have taken advantage of such services.
 
You could make a loop in the lower left corner. The track would cross the loop going into the industry, which isn't a big deal. I would hide the back side of the loop so it doesn't look like a loop.
 
Chas_SC_Kev said:
The frustration of layout planning continues for me I’m ashamed to admit. I have been in the track planning phase for well over 2 years now. I wouldn’t say the excessive delay is due to indecisiveness, but more due to constant maturing and evolution of existing ideas.
Click to expand...

2 Years. You have nothing to be ashamed of.

I worked on the plan "for my last layout" for almost 8 years before I got it "right". Then got to enlarge it to double the original size, with the expansion of available space provided by the CFO. (the wife) and that took another 3 years. :)

Actually I'm still working on it constantly, refining, changing industry sites around, adding, removing industries, etc. The basic plan is still the same but always those nagging little doubts in the back of my mind, keeps telling me, "change it, change it"....:D
 
Just an idea

So i was toying around in my favorite track planning tool and came up with this. This is just an idea and will hopefully get your creative juices flowing. I think for your space - 19' x 11' you can do quite a bit in N scale.

Regarding the plan, the points marked "A" go to a lower level with staging, that way you can have continuous running and nice long main line running in the visible sections. Where you place the towns, yard and port is completely up to you. Only major draw back is that the narrowest aisle width is 24".

Sorry, the orientation is wrong, its upside down... Anyway, just a suggestion.

View attachment 13084
 
Nephthyr, Thanks for the input. I've played around with your idea some and come up with the following plan.

To the NW are 3 yard tracks at the port in the city of Georgetown. winding around on the north side of the pinnusulla we have a lot of scennery, and find a track heading down to staging (which i would block with scennery). Around to the south end of the pinnsulla we have an interchange with the NS and a one track interchange yard. Moving to the west wall, 3 industries in the City of Charleston. on the south wall, My yard largely unchanged from previous versions. After the yard, the east wall more scenery for my trains to wind through, The north wall has a number of industry in the City of Columbia, with possibly a large industry such as a steel mill on the far west end of the north wall. The large loop would have a track heading down to staging along the North wall.

Obviously the plan is roughed in at this point. Continuious running would be through staging. I have made more use of switchbacks than i ever have previously. I like the large amounts of space between towns. i wonder if a few things will create problems. For starters, one of the columbia industry's spurs is off of the staging yard. W0uld this essentually block of switching here at times? My main yard has 2 sub yards each with their own lead tracks. ar the lead track long enough? Is the outdoor engine storage and turntable too far from the 3 desiel service tracks. Will this create a problem?

Would love to hear critiques...

Cheers
 
Kev,

Might I suggest that instead of saving the scan as a pdf, save it as a jpeg. Then open up a free account at photobucket, flicker, etc. Then you upload your jpeg scan to your account.

It will allow you directly insert a jpeg into the post like this.

GMO2819.png


This pic is only 120kb. The linking will allow the computer to fit it to the screen, and make your scans appear as you're discussing it instead of having to look between separate screens.
 
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GREAT IDEA ! lets hope i get this right the first time.

v6.jpg


To the NW are 3 yard tracks at the port in the city of Georgetown. Working around on the north side of the pinnusulla we have a lot of scennery, and find a track heading down to staging (which i would block with scennery if possible). Around to the south end of the pinnsulla we have an interchange with the NS and a one track interchange yard. Moving to the west wall, 3 industries in the City of Charleston. on the south wall, My Charleston yard, largely unchanged from previous versions. After the yard, the east wall has more scenery for my trains to wind through. The north wall has a number of industry in the City of Columbia, with possibly a large industry such as a steel mill on the far west end of the north wall. The large loop would have a track heading down to staging along the North wall.

Obviously the plan is roughed in at this point. Continuious running would be through staging. I have made more use of switchbacks than i ever have previously. I like the large amounts of space between towns. I am wondering if a few things will create problems though. For starters, one of the Charleston industry's spurs is off of the interchange yard. Would this essentually block off switching here at times? My main yard has 2 sub yards each with their own lead tracks. Are the lead tracks long enough? Is the outdoor engine storage and turntable too far from the 3 desiel service tracks. Would this create a problem? Is the switchback on the north end going to give me problems because i would have to use the passing track of the main for run-around purposes? I envision this industry becoming the SMI rebar steel mill. Would the local switcher have problems with this track configuration?

Still looking for any critiques people may have. Please see my givens and druthers above.
 
I like it a lot, it has lots to offer and nice wide aisles. Operation will be great. Only thing I would do is to make the Charleston yard a little longer, the shortest yard track is only a bit longer than a foot, you have space to play with in this area so utilize it. You can never have enough yard trackage.
You seem to also have a nice balance of scenery to track ratio, with loads of operating possibilities. I look forward to seeing how this layout progresses.
 
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Chas, could you reprint your plan with the directions and towns names showing? Maybe it's just me but I'm having a hard time following where things are in relation to one another.

As fas as an industrial spur of an interchange track, that's often done, especially if that industry was one of the major contributors to the interchange. Even a fairly busy interchange points only sees a few trains aday so the switcher would need to have the cars made up for interchange and then leave room for interchange cars to be dropped off.
 
UP2CSX,
Thanks for your input. At your request i have scanned the image with some additional information. I printed it, annotated it, with ideas and thoughts. (as well as labeling towns etc.). Its not Moldel Railroader Magazine quality, but i think it gets the point across.

I feel better about this plan than any other ive put together... its fits my givens and druthers. I think the biggest thing i've modified in my thinking process is that less is more sometimes. Its not track on top of track, and industry after industry. It fits the region i've chosen to model much better. I think it has enough to give it opperating intrest. I aslo think it is enough to keep me busy for YEARS to come.

I"m trying to think through opperation though. I have no real life railroad experience. Everything i know if from magazine and such. So anyone who is in a rail road club would have much more insite on how intresting or difficult this plan would be to opperate. This weekend i hope to finalize the lower level staging layout. but lets face it, its staging.... probably not going to be interesting.

I wish i knew someone in the area who is a knowlegable modeler. I think i could learn so much just sitting down with several photocopies of this plan to scribble and brainstorm on!

Thanks for all who have responded
 
It's good to see the tracks headed to staging. It can be frustrating trying to find places to hide the track, but looks like you found a way! Looks like it will be a fun layout.
 
Your annotated plan is much easier to understand, thanks. As to your questions, I don't think you need a runaround track for the rebar mill. That long spur at the top of the layout should provide enough room for the switcher to shuffle cars between the two tracks. I don't the passing siding will get overwhelmed with traffic either. The switcher operator will need to know the schedule of any mainline train that's going to take the siding and clear up his work and wait until the train in the hole leaves. You have enough track that there should be room to move any cut of cars spotted there out of the way. This type of arrangement is common on real railroads.

Your engine house and sevice tracks are locared at the top of the yard and the connection track should not interfere with yard operations. The only change I would make is to not have the main run through a switch in the yard. I'd take it straight through above the yard and have a crossover switch at the left end of the yard so trains from either direction can leave or enter the yard. Having the mainline using a switch will slow down operations and it will be a constant point of derailments.

You may not have gotten down to this level of detail yet but you will need several crossovers in the subyard A and at least one in subyard B. This will allow your switchers to run around cuts of cars while making up trains.

Overall, it looks like a great layout and should be quite an empire in N scale. This one will keep you busy for a long time. :)
 
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