Do you need to address your locomotives after you shut your trains down when you're done or is the address stored in the DCC decoder in the locomotive so when you start it up the next day you can just go? I keep about 10 different locomotives on the tracks in various sidings on my DC layout and I would think it'd get frustrating to have to keep re-addressing them. I've done some research on DCC, but still have a TON to find out.
Is Your Layout DC or DCC
- Thread starter KisNap
- Start date
DCC decoders have many different settings (called CVs for configuration variables) one of which is the address.
With just a very, very few exceptions any settings you make are stored in the decoder and remain there until you change them.
The address is one of the stored settings.
Here is some information about these settings:
http://www.dccwiki.com/Configuration_Variable
http://www.nmra.org/sites/default/files/s-9.2.2_2012_10.pdf
The common ones you will likely set are:
- those related to the address (1, 17, 18 and 29)
- those related to some basic speed settings (2, 5 and 6)
- those related to "momentum" (3 and 4)
CV29 can be a bit confusing (no pun intended) - it controls a number of different things - a few of these are:
- does the loco use a short or long address
- which direction is "forward" - for example with a GP# type loco some roads run short hood forward, others long hood forward.
- how many speed steps will the loco use - the common numbers you will see are 14, 28 and 128 (really 126) - all decoders must offer 28, they may also choose to offer 14 or 128.
With just a very, very few exceptions any settings you make are stored in the decoder and remain there until you change them.
The address is one of the stored settings.
Here is some information about these settings:
http://www.dccwiki.com/Configuration_Variable
http://www.nmra.org/sites/default/files/s-9.2.2_2012_10.pdf
The common ones you will likely set are:
- those related to the address (1, 17, 18 and 29)
- those related to some basic speed settings (2, 5 and 6)
- those related to "momentum" (3 and 4)
CV29 can be a bit confusing (no pun intended) - it controls a number of different things - a few of these are:
- does the loco use a short or long address
- which direction is "forward" - for example with a GP# type loco some roads run short hood forward, others long hood forward.
- how many speed steps will the loco use - the common numbers you will see are 14, 28 and 128 (really 126) - all decoders must offer 28, they may also choose to offer 14 or 128.
photoman475
Member
On my small layout, 11x11, single track on both levels, it does not make sense to go DCC. DC allows me to do what I want with the equipment and power packs on hand. Making the switch to DCC for trains that aren't all that long and multiple unit operation means one powered loco and dummies? It does not make sense to do so, particularly since 35-and-40-year-old gray motor Athearn locos aren't worth converting. The 25-year-old Atlas and Kato locos might be worth doing, but again, why on this small a layout?
One of the things I promised my wife is that the layout would be done as inexpensively as possible. I have more than enough locos and rolling stock to last the rest of my life! Most of the money that has been spent on the layout has been for scenery materials and the occasional replacement Atlas switch. What money that has been spent on rolling stock and locos is to fill specific gaps in my roster. The Stewart Leigh Valley Baldwin switcher kit from the 1980s comes to mind.
The challenge of DC in a small layout is enough for me.
Photoman475
One of the things I promised my wife is that the layout would be done as inexpensively as possible. I have more than enough locos and rolling stock to last the rest of my life! Most of the money that has been spent on the layout has been for scenery materials and the occasional replacement Atlas switch. What money that has been spent on rolling stock and locos is to fill specific gaps in my roster. The Stewart Leigh Valley Baldwin switcher kit from the 1980s comes to mind.
The challenge of DC in a small layout is enough for me.
Photoman475
montanan
Whiskey Merchant
I am staying with DC. I am a lone operator to start off with. My layout is built for switching and is a point to point layout. About the only time I have more locomotives on the track may be when pulling a long train up the grades on the layout using hidden staging when visitors want to see the trains run. My old Atlas locomotives run great in multiple units.
Cost is one concern. IF, and it is an extremely strong if, I were to go DCC, I would most likely purchase a top of the line system with a booster. Cha Ching $$$$. Then comes installing decoders. With over 30 locomotives, Cha Ching $$$$. Many of my diesel locomotives are old Atlas Alco units with little or no room for a decoder unless the weight would be milled down or cut out to make room for the decoder. This would take a lot of time also. I would rather put that time to working on the layout.
Most of the time I am only running a single locomotive switching industries or making up or breaking down trains in a yard. For my purposes I really don't see any advantage of converting a 25 year old layout that is working perfectly to DCC. Also, at my age there could be the problem of miltitasking. One single locomotive keeps me plenty busy.
I do have one beautiful brass locomotive which I custom Painted years ago, a Northern Pacific Yellowstone (2-8-8-4) that I call my traveling locomotive. We travel a lot and in our travels do visit many model railroaders across the country, and a good friend converted it and also installed Tsunami sound. This is great for running on large or club layouts with numerous trains running at the same time, but for my home layout, the only time it sees the rails is when it is occasionally taken out of its box to take a few laps around the layout to keep it lubricated.
Cost is one concern. IF, and it is an extremely strong if, I were to go DCC, I would most likely purchase a top of the line system with a booster. Cha Ching $$$$. Then comes installing decoders. With over 30 locomotives, Cha Ching $$$$. Many of my diesel locomotives are old Atlas Alco units with little or no room for a decoder unless the weight would be milled down or cut out to make room for the decoder. This would take a lot of time also. I would rather put that time to working on the layout.
Most of the time I am only running a single locomotive switching industries or making up or breaking down trains in a yard. For my purposes I really don't see any advantage of converting a 25 year old layout that is working perfectly to DCC. Also, at my age there could be the problem of miltitasking. One single locomotive keeps me plenty busy.
I do have one beautiful brass locomotive which I custom Painted years ago, a Northern Pacific Yellowstone (2-8-8-4) that I call my traveling locomotive. We travel a lot and in our travels do visit many model railroaders across the country, and a good friend converted it and also installed Tsunami sound. This is great for running on large or club layouts with numerous trains running at the same time, but for my home layout, the only time it sees the rails is when it is occasionally taken out of its box to take a few laps around the layout to keep it lubricated.
trailrider
Well-Known Member
With over fifty steam and diesel locomotives acquired over sixty years, there is no way I could afford either in time or money to convert them to DCC with sound. My layout is relatively small (14 x 14), and I generally only run one train at a time. Having said that, I do have a few more recently acquired 1940-60 era diesels with sound. So I have a dual mode setup that allows me to select DCC w/sound for my Denver Zephyr with a Proto2000 E6 (converted externally to an E5) and an E8/9, as well as one Mantua logging mallet that also has sound, plus a couple of more. However, I am careful, when running my steamers, which have DC Canon coreless motors, to be sure the toggle on the control panel is set to DC. I tend to have more problems with DCC-equipped stuff, however.
AyTrane
Member
I've built a few layouts for people that had a toggle switch allowing either DC or DCC to run to the track (never both at the same time). This was handy for those old locomotives that couldn't be converted but still in running condition.
My layout is DCC all the way. I have automatic reverse loops, so I'd have to do a bit of converting to turn it into a DC layout. If I would set the loops to be either on or off, I could have an interesting point to point layout for DC. Now you have me tempted to run the cheap starter stuff I got 25 years ago.
My layout is DCC all the way. I have automatic reverse loops, so I'd have to do a bit of converting to turn it into a DC layout. If I would set the loops to be either on or off, I could have an interesting point to point layout for DC. Now you have me tempted to run the cheap starter stuff I got 25 years ago.
If you don't want to use DCC, by all means don't. It is, after all, a personal preference and it's your railroad. That being said, the "it's too expensive" excuse doesn't fly. You can get a basic DCC starter system for about the same dollars as a basic Genesis diesel without sound or DCC. Got that? One locomotive, wired for DC...same cost (or pretty close) as a DCC starter set. Nobody ever seems to have problems scrounging the cash for a new locomotive, do they? If you add up the cost of a quality power supply and the necessary switchgear to do block control and compare, you might be surprised. There have been prior discussions on this forum on this subject. Do a search.
"I have too many locomotives to convert" Still doesn't fly. How many of those locomotives do you run every day? How many at the same time? How many haven't turned a wheel in years? Be honest! Thought so!
I will agree that converting everything to sound can get expensive, and I don't equip everything with sound by any means. I have F and GP sets that have sound in one or two locos and the rest have simple non sound decoders. Big cost savings, sounds fine to me! Another dirty secret: Sound can get old, and it isn't necessary. I'd say maybe 10-15% of my roster is sound equipped, and I find that to be quite enough. Basic non sound decoders start from between 15 and 20 bucks depending on the brand and how many features you want. I had a substantial roster when I converted. I added decoders to locomotives as time and disposable income permitted, and I'm on a budget like most of us. Some older locos were sold off and replaced with better models. My too wide hood GP-9's and outdated Athearn F's with crude cab windows went this route, though several stayed on equipped with non sound decoders for a time. If it isn't for you, then so be it, but don't use these excuses to talk yourself out of it, just admit that you don't want to be bothered Do ask yourself this: Would you rather run your trains or your track? Would you like those advanced features like mars lights, ditch lights and so forth? Would you like the enhanced flexibility? Would you like to follow your train with a handheld or sit at a panel and throw toggle switches? Then decide what you want.
"I have too many locomotives to convert" Still doesn't fly. How many of those locomotives do you run every day? How many at the same time? How many haven't turned a wheel in years? Be honest! Thought so!
I will agree that converting everything to sound can get expensive, and I don't equip everything with sound by any means. I have F and GP sets that have sound in one or two locos and the rest have simple non sound decoders. Big cost savings, sounds fine to me! Another dirty secret: Sound can get old, and it isn't necessary. I'd say maybe 10-15% of my roster is sound equipped, and I find that to be quite enough. Basic non sound decoders start from between 15 and 20 bucks depending on the brand and how many features you want. I had a substantial roster when I converted. I added decoders to locomotives as time and disposable income permitted, and I'm on a budget like most of us. Some older locos were sold off and replaced with better models. My too wide hood GP-9's and outdated Athearn F's with crude cab windows went this route, though several stayed on equipped with non sound decoders for a time. If it isn't for you, then so be it, but don't use these excuses to talk yourself out of it, just admit that you don't want to be bothered Do ask yourself this: Would you rather run your trains or your track? Would you like those advanced features like mars lights, ditch lights and so forth? Would you like the enhanced flexibility? Would you like to follow your train with a handheld or sit at a panel and throw toggle switches? Then decide what you want.
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A2TwrOpr
Member
Espeefan, you seem like a pretty die hard dcc fan. But here's the bottom line for me, and probably a few others. I've already got a dc power pack, hand me down from my dad that cost $0. I've got 4 engines on my layout, 3 atlas silver series and 1 Athearn RTR. None of them cost over $75 new and run great. My layout is point to point switching and I'm the only one who ever uses it. So to spend more time and money converting to dcc isn't really high on my priority list. Like Montanan said, I could spend the money better too
The big challenge isn't converting diesels to DCC, but steam locos. The main reason I did model railroading is the steam locomotives.
I had acquired a fleet of Powerhouse N&W Y3's (8) and the conversion process is a bigger deal. I first have to modify the tender with insulated bolsters, swap to better T27 trucks, spring loaded and the tender picks up all the electricity, not the engine.
Decoders were connected from engine to tender with Deans connectors. Grain of Dust lights were installed with MV lenses in headlight and tender backup light. The better trucks and weight of the tender seems to be good enough. Later I decided to do 1 engine a little different by allowing electrical pickup off the engine and tender. Same performance.
Each engine and tender take a few days of my spare time to complete. Add in the Bowsers, and Bachman J and the Lifelike USRA 4-8-2 Heavy all with custom wiring harnesses and engine and tender semi-permanently attached so no plugs are used which made for better performance. ALL A PITA!
In the 'old DC days' I added a rectifier as suggested in an old MRC mag where you got constant intensity lighting where the voltage first brought the light from dim to bright before the voltage 'spilled over' to the motor. That is all the tricky electronics I did. It was harder to wire Tortoise switch machines in the yard.
My DC trains worked great, smoothly and quiet, not like running an old Athearn BB Trainmaster and hearing it buzz. I think I enjoyed the blocking logistics, and DC more than the cranky DCC.
I had acquired a fleet of Powerhouse N&W Y3's (8) and the conversion process is a bigger deal. I first have to modify the tender with insulated bolsters, swap to better T27 trucks, spring loaded and the tender picks up all the electricity, not the engine.
Decoders were connected from engine to tender with Deans connectors. Grain of Dust lights were installed with MV lenses in headlight and tender backup light. The better trucks and weight of the tender seems to be good enough. Later I decided to do 1 engine a little different by allowing electrical pickup off the engine and tender. Same performance.
Each engine and tender take a few days of my spare time to complete. Add in the Bowsers, and Bachman J and the Lifelike USRA 4-8-2 Heavy all with custom wiring harnesses and engine and tender semi-permanently attached so no plugs are used which made for better performance. ALL A PITA!
In the 'old DC days' I added a rectifier as suggested in an old MRC mag where you got constant intensity lighting where the voltage first brought the light from dim to bright before the voltage 'spilled over' to the motor. That is all the tricky electronics I did. It was harder to wire Tortoise switch machines in the yard.
My DC trains worked great, smoothly and quiet, not like running an old Athearn BB Trainmaster and hearing it buzz. I think I enjoyed the blocking logistics, and DC more than the cranky DCC.
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goscrewyourselves
I'm the one
My layout is DCC, why? - I don't really know as I will be the only the operator and, most likely, will only ever run two trains at any given time.
I sort of agree with Espeefan regarding cost though. My first 8' X 4' layout was full DC and nothing fancy, essentially an oval with a passing line and (therefore) two turn outs. When I decided to build a larger layout 11' X 3' 6" (on ave) I looked at the costs involved. It turned out that buying a DCC Starter System wasn't going to be all that much more expensive than buying updated DC stuff and would give me more options. With my first layout, I had one train and 3 or 4 pieces of rolling stock so I had to buy some newer engines and rolling stock anyway. Rolling stock is the same whether for DC or DCC so that became irrelevant in terms of costs. The big cost was buying FULL DCC equipped engines, diesel and steam. Since then I have learnt that buying DCC ready engines is a cheaper option making those engines around the same price as a DC engine. Adding a Decoder adds another $25 or $30 (no sound) to the cost but can be done when finances permit.
To me, it made sense to go with the newest technology whether I used it all or not. At least it was there in place should I want to in the future.
I sort of agree with Espeefan regarding cost though. My first 8' X 4' layout was full DC and nothing fancy, essentially an oval with a passing line and (therefore) two turn outs. When I decided to build a larger layout 11' X 3' 6" (on ave) I looked at the costs involved. It turned out that buying a DCC Starter System wasn't going to be all that much more expensive than buying updated DC stuff and would give me more options. With my first layout, I had one train and 3 or 4 pieces of rolling stock so I had to buy some newer engines and rolling stock anyway. Rolling stock is the same whether for DC or DCC so that became irrelevant in terms of costs. The big cost was buying FULL DCC equipped engines, diesel and steam. Since then I have learnt that buying DCC ready engines is a cheaper option making those engines around the same price as a DC engine. Adding a Decoder adds another $25 or $30 (no sound) to the cost but can be done when finances permit.
To me, it made sense to go with the newest technology whether I used it all or not. At least it was there in place should I want to in the future.
goscrewyourselves
I'm the one
Well, it was new to me compared to straight DC; none the less, 40 year old tech with a million band aids on it ... sounds more like the US political system
montanan
Whiskey Merchant
I have a similar layout, a point to point layout built mainly for switching. I am the only person who operates on the layout being that there are no other modelers I know of in the area interested in HO scale. I really only need to operate one locomotive at a time. If there would be a need for multiple operators, I may have considered it, but that isn't going to happen. Cost, yes there is a cost. With the size of my layout, I would need a booster, and I wouldn't be interested in a starter system. I would try to find the top of the line system as you usually get what you pay for. My favorite locomotives are my old Atlas Alcos. There just isn't any room in them for a decoder without major modification to the weight to make room for a decoder. Being that I don't NEED DCC, I would rather spend my hobby budget on other things for the layout.
Now to Y3a's comment. Years back, long before DCC was even thought of, I operated a PFM sound system for my steam locomotives. Unfortunately, getting sound modules was getting harder and harder and I ended up having to build my own, which was rather simple. I much prefer the sound capabilities of the old PFM system to DCC. The way you could control the whistle was so much better. While growing up, I was lucky to have relatives working on the railroad and spent hours riding in the cabs of locomotives, including steam before they were phased out. It seemed that many engineers had their own way of operating their whistle, and after a while, you knew who was the engineer on a train just by the way they operated the whistle. A personal thing I imagine. With the PFM system you could vary the whistle, modulate it I guess you could call it, instead of just a short or long blast. I do have one locomotive, a brass Northern Pacific Yellowstone that I take with me on trips, and had a friend install DCC with Tsunami sound in it. It sounds great, but I miss being able to control the whistle the way you could with the PFM system. My friend also brought up the work needed to convert older steam locomotives to DCC just like Y3a mentioned.
To each their own I guess. For running multiple locomotives at the same time, DCC can't be beat. I have operated on large home and club layouts in my travels and it is a blast with DCC, but for my personal home layout, it is not necessary.
Really? That wasn't the intent. Think of me as a guy who tends to buy the best available tools on the market if they are in my budget. DC and DCC are both tools for running trains. DCC is a more versatile tool. I started in the hobby with DC, and enjoyed it well enough. When DCC started gaining acceptance I resisted it. Now at that time a decent system would cost you around $800.00, and decoders were in the fifty buck range. Sound was not in decoders yet. We've come quite a way. When prices dropped and the club I belonged to transitioned, I bought a Digitrax Empire Builder system through their club purchase plan. On that plan, you could get some pretty steep discounts if a club pooled their purchases into one big buy. As you may have gathered I'm an SP modeler, and most folks know that in the early diesel days their power was festooned with light packages of all sorts. It's been said (by Bill Schaumberg) that the SP ordered headlights and had to buy locomotives to hold them up, but that's another story. I was buying a limited amount of lighting modules to make Gyra-lights work. At that time, these were as expensive as, or more expensive than DCC decoders. I converted the roster over time, and the cost was spread out enough to make it comfortable. I have a large collection of brass steamers, and quite a few plastic diesels, however I tend to run only a few at a time, and have my favorites that see regular use. Nobody said you have to convert everything at once. Few do. Even if you wanted to and had the decoders, a fellow would get burned out doing installs!
Exactly my point! It isn't how expensive it is, it's that you'd rather spend the money elsewhere, and it doesn't suit your needs at this point. As I said at the beginning of my post, both of those are perfectly acceptable reasons for staying with DC. It's your railroad. Just don't say expense is a factor, because it isn't. It's about allocation of funds! For your average modeler starting out building a layout, if you look at the DCC system cost versus the DC system cost, and remember to include toggle switches, rotary switches, and such necessary for proper block control wiring, you'd be surprised at the results. I know several modelers who did this and were shocked to find DCC equal or even cheaper in cost. These were old school DC guys who were not inclined to make the switch, and both ended up going DCC. Neither has regretted it.
DCC is where the hobby is going...no strike that, it's where the hobby has gone. DC users are a minority that will continue to get smaller as younger people move into the hobby. If you disagree with that statement look at the poll results. In any case, enjoy your layout and do what works best for you!
Charles Smiley
cspmovies
I agree with Espeefan.
I started with DC in 1969. I was forever disappointed in every throttle I tried and I built my own version of the old TAT-IV transistorized throttle with operational amplifiers looking for better performance. The microprocessor era beginning about 1973-ish had to mature into the microcontroller and DSP era to really put the control inside the loco where it belongs.
The difference is like comparing the old U-control line for model airplanes as you twirl around in circles versus full remote RF controls. Maybe not so noticeable on a switching layout but for this one difference...
I equipped all my switchers with Keep-Alive power packs to support the decoder and motor running over dirty track and lots of frogs (not the green ones but the turnout type). I never have to thump the table EVER to get a loco moving off the little bits of dirt under its feet. That problem was really a fun-kill for me and now it's gone. Switchers like ALCO S3 and EMD SW1 types don't have much weight and they are the first to stall. It's not so likely with road power because I always run them in pairs. But then again never any headlight flickers on those either.
I started with DC in 1969. I was forever disappointed in every throttle I tried and I built my own version of the old TAT-IV transistorized throttle with operational amplifiers looking for better performance. The microprocessor era beginning about 1973-ish had to mature into the microcontroller and DSP era to really put the control inside the loco where it belongs.
The difference is like comparing the old U-control line for model airplanes as you twirl around in circles versus full remote RF controls. Maybe not so noticeable on a switching layout but for this one difference...
I equipped all my switchers with Keep-Alive power packs to support the decoder and motor running over dirty track and lots of frogs (not the green ones but the turnout type). I never have to thump the table EVER to get a loco moving off the little bits of dirt under its feet. That problem was really a fun-kill for me and now it's gone. Switchers like ALCO S3 and EMD SW1 types don't have much weight and they are the first to stall. It's not so likely with road power because I always run them in pairs. But then again never any headlight flickers on those either.
montanan
Whiskey Merchant
That's interesting to know. I don't operate it on a regular basis, only when visiting layouts that are DCC. I will have to ask someone when I am at one of these layouts. It does have a nice sound system, but when operating on a strange layout, most of my attention is on getting my assignments done in a timely manner. Keeps my attention and not much time to experiment. I have no way to test it at home as I have no DCC system available. It would be interesting to know how they do it. With the PFM system, there is a lever that you moved down and depending on how far down you move it, it would vary the whistle accordingly. Don't know how they can do that with a button. I'll have to look into this. Thanks
