Is Model Railroading getting out of hand with things


M

Milwdt

New Member
Hello,

I work at a hobby shop on weekends to help the owner, to sell and support customers that come into the shop, and to keep my personal layout running. I have a pretty large HO layout which I have stuck with DC operated and is Computer software controlled by Bruce Chubbs electronics.

I am glad I have my layout built, cause lately I have been watching the pricing on new Engines, Cars, and Buildings that are being listed on the market and I feel it is slowly getting way out a hand. Sure you get more detail, sound if you are into DCC, but for 30-40 dollars for a car, and 300-500 dollars for an engine is a bit extreme I feel. Some of the cars now days are more expensive than Kadee cars which used to top end pricing. I just saw tonight the latest price for a Bowser GP30 Milw engine, DC version which I run, now lists for 200 dollars. Buildings are not too bad but they are gradually going up in pricing - but they have great detail compared to long ago. I would be interested in how many are buying these items above at these prices.

Another thing is track availability from Atlas, we have been out of Atlas flex track and allot of switches and accessories for the past 6-9 months. Atlas keeps producing cars and engines, but there is no Atlas track for the customers to run it on if they are starting out new. So who knows when this will change.

Also I watch what people that come into the shop and I dont see much in the younger generation coming into our shop to buy model railroad items like we used to do when I was younger. Not saying there isnt any, but with the high pricing it sure makes it much more difficult to get into the hobby and create a professional type layout when the starter HO sets run for 150.00 dollars for a good set and the pricing of many items as mentioned above.

My model railroading is doing good and hope things are going good in the sales market for these new products coming out at what they are asking for them.

just my opinions,

Milwdt
 
I don't know what scale you're talking about, but I assume it's HO. I know that in N scale some of the "detail" is actually pricing itself into an area that only "super duper rivet counters" would care to go. Not on just the price itself, but for the fact that the price is for details that even a person with perfect vision can't see without a magnifying glass. I mean, there comes a point where you're including so much detail that you're pricing yourself out of business. I'm not going to pay $40 for a new MTL box car with hyper-accurate detailing when I can't tell the difference between it and a $17 Atlas without the aid of said magnifying glass. Maybe a different story in HO, y'know, but some of the N-scale stuff is starting to go a bit ridiculous.
 
It does hurt to go to the hobby shop and think you are going to come away with certain things only to come home with half of what you were after because of the cost of things. If I didn't have a pretty good job I would probably not even consider this hobby at this time.
 
I agree; the prices are increasing into a dangerous territory. It's going to get to where most new hobbyists won't be able to afford a layout at all.
 
It's definitely getting out of hand for me. Maybe it's just because I have tuition AND student loans, mortgage, 2 car payments, insurance, utilities, food, gas, etc.

Maybe I should get a job....
 
I see your point, but there are cheaper alternatives to the high end products.

I am primarily a Lionel O gauge guy, but I dabble in HO. It is very good to find basic locomotives for as little as $19.99 http://www.modeltrainstuff.com/Model-Power-HO-0-4-0-Loco-PRR-p/mdp-96501.htm for a DC locomotive and $44.99 http://www.modeltrainstuff.com/Bachmann-HO-60806-RTR-GP30-B-O-Capital-6936-p/bac-60806.htm for a DCC locomotive.

My Local and it could be anyone's hobby shop with the internet, MB Klein/Model Train Stuff has 261 HO locomotives below $94 http://www.modeltrainstuff.com/HO-S...cat=1450&show=30&page=1&minprice=&maxprice=94 I could easily find a dozen of these I would love to have!

They also have 626 HO locomotives starting at $199 all the way up to $500 http://www.modeltrainstuff.com/HO-S...cat=1450&show=30&page=1&minprice=199&maxprice= Too rich for my HO budget, but judging by the number of these they have in stock there must be a demand for them.

There is a locomotive to meet everyone's budget.

You make a great point about the young people. This is a great hobby, but so many young people are unaware of it. It is our task to try and introduce them to it. Trains don't have the same appeal to them as they did to us when we were young. Real railroads were almost glorified to previous generations and a source of pride to the communities they were in or traveled through. Now we only hear about train wrecks and other accidents.

I think the best way to get young people into model railroading is to start them with a love of trains when they are young. Lionel has a new remote control system that can do just that, the LionChief sets and locomotives. Here is a link to a thread I started about them. http://www.modelrailroadforums.com/forum/showthread.php?33646-Great-Starter-Sets-for-Youngsters

I am very excited about these sets. I honestly believe they can bring trains back to this generation. I know my 4 and 5 year old grandsons love them! These trains are now competing with the video games for inside play time! These LionChief sets are so easy for the little ones to use, they love the kid friendly wireless remote control.

Lionel led the first surge in the popularity of trains and I believe these Lionel LionChief sets can led the resurgence. That will be good for all scales! Just like many went from O gauge to HO and even on to N and Z. It could be happening all over again.
 
I think in HO , Bachmann has become the value brand. Full feature not too bad on prices and easy to find deeply discounted. I don't think you can beat their steamers. Rolling stock has gotten silly high and 90% of any new modelers don't care about that level of detail. Thomas and Chuggington are now the intro for most kids along with the Lionel sets Louis is talking about. There's always been a market for the high end stuff but yes, you need inexpensive and mid range product in this hobby too.
 
It's relative, I guess **sigh** but not as bad as it seems..


Circa ~ 1985: Nice sedan = $10,000 / Athearn BB = $50

Circa ~ 2014: Nice sedan = $25,000 / Athearn RtR = $100
----------------------------------------------------------------------
.................................... +150% ......... +100%

**
DCC systems and decoders have fared even better..
 
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Things were cheaper when we put them together. Now the factory builds them and we pay the labor. The bad part is the QUALITY of many of the new plastic steamers is pretty bad. Most $500 steamers don't last 3 years before showing signs of wear and drive sloppiness. Gimme a Bowser kit any day to the overpriced poorly designed plastic choo-choos offered these days.
 
I think it's a combination of factors. $100 used to be a pretty sizable chunk of money. Now it's easy to spend $100 on a normal trip to the grocery store. So the cost of most things has gone up over the years, slowly and steadily.

The second factor is the new models that I call "plastic brass". They're the highly detailed locomotives with DCC and Sound, excellent paint jobs and they run well for the most part. They're not cheap, but they're not replacing the Bowser and Bachmann stuff of the past, they're filling the niche that used to be occupied by PFM and Orient Imports (or whatever they were called, can't recall exactly) Back then, the models were mostly brass, and they also looked great. But many of them didn't run well until you did a lot of work on them, and they often came painted in brass color, so if you wanted a realistic paint job, that was another expense, and not a cheap one unless you were good enough to do it yourself. (And you still had to buy paints and most likely an air gun and compressor, and decals and....)

The hobby has changed, no doubt. I recall when modelers used to look down on "shake the box" rolling stock kits, saying they were more like toy trains than model railroading. These days, you don't shake the box, you simply open it. Maybe you have to put on your choice of couplers, and then you're ready to go.

Of course the biggest change is DCC. Yes, it's expensive to set up, but what a great system! Finally you can control your trains just like the real thing. It also means the wiring is a lot simpler for the most part.

The reason for most of these things is time. The model railroaders who used to scratch build steam locomotives are gone for the most part, replaced by folks with busy lives who want to get a layout up and running before they retire and move someplace where they don't have room for a layout.

Anyone else recall the days when every month Model Railroader had a "centerfold" that was a very detailed drawing of a locomotive? They published those for folks who wanted to scratch build an accurate model of certain prototypes. I don't recall when they stopped printing them, but it's been a long time ago.
 
Bret Henderson's point is well-taken. It isn't so much that the prices have gone up per se, the value of the dollar has gurgled down the drain! When I bought my first house in the Denver area, in 1969, the value was about $23,000. Thirty years later, when my daughter and her husband bought virtually the same house, in the same neighborhood, the sale price was $230,000! NOT including wear, tear and depreciation, was the house worth 10 times what an identical house was? No! The value of the dollar had dropped to 10 percent!

That is part of what we are seeing today in just about everything, including model railroading. Do I like that? Heck no! I'm semi-retired, so my income is pretty well fixed. That doesn't help. The fortunate thing is that I acquired most of my rolling stock and buildings from the time I was 12 until a few years ago. Oh, I do buy a few things, but there is no way I could afford what I have nowadays. I have over 50 locomotives, steam and diesel, the majority of which are straight DC. While I think sound is neat, there is no way I could afford, nor have the time to convert all of them. Since I'm a one-man operator, I don't really need the controllability of DCC for multiple trains.

Another thing about costs of manufacture: It is far easier to make a rtr boxcar with super details than to engineer the individual parts and set up the tooling for kits. I don't like it, but that's a fact. (What absolutely astounds me is how the Lego people make up their stuff! That takes reverse engineering from a concept to the parts needed to create whatever they are selling!) So far as labor is concerned, the Chinese-made stuff is costing a very little part of the manufacturing cost...over there.

So far as the cost and durability of steam locomotives is concerned, I just wish Bowser hadn't discontinued the Mantua line. Unfortunately, the tooling wore out, and it would be prohibitively costly to retool. :( The only negative with the original Tyco/Mantua steamers was the direct drive from the open-pole motors to the bull gear. Earlier Mantuas had a gear box, and it was easy to substitute can or coreless motors, with some sort of universal drive shaft between motor and gear box/worm shaft. The late Harold Mellor had photo-etched brass pieces that could be bent into a gearbox and the bearings from the original moter installed. Sadly, those are long gone, though I have one or two squirrelled away in case I decide to kitbash another hog.

Another problem facing our hobby as far as youngsters are concerned: Many of us grew up riding passenger trains, whether a commuter local or a high-class streamliner. For long distances, certainly, there was little fun in driving long distances; airplanes were generally too expensive, and the train was the way folks travelled. You don't have that so much anymore, even though Amtrac is there. Many youngsters see huge diesel consists pulling unit coal or grain trains, and IMHO, such beasts are pretty boring, and difficult to replicate unless you have a large layout, or belong to a modular club. About the best our generation can hope for is to show the kids what it was like when we were young, and hope some of the interest is generated.
 
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Bruette said:
There is a locomotive to meet everyone's budget.

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This sums up everything we should be supporting. I see something of a competitive nature where only the super elaborate stuff "counts". This is not to the benefit of our hobby.

There are several wise players, like Louis, Kevin, Gary, Crandell, and others who work to support everyone on the web site. Regardless of DCC or E-Z track, or whatever. We should care for all levels of the hobby, because the mass of people consists mainly of middle income class families. Sure, the hobby can cater to the rich; but we will suffer.

The numerous educational and creative benefits of model railroading would best be embraced at all levels.

lasm
 
I think the manufacturers are caught up in an idea that is affecting all American businesses, immediate profit versus sustained growth. With the elimination of most "shake the box" kits, many younger modelers cannot afford to get into this hobby. Who are the manufacturers going to sell their products to 30 years from now?
willie
 
santafewillie said:
I think the manufacturers are caught up in an idea that is affecting all American businesses, immediate profit versus sustained growth. With the elimination of most "shake the box" kits, many younger modelers cannot afford to get into this hobby. Who are the manufacturers going to sell their products to 30 years from now?
willie
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The same people they sell them to now: older folks who are established in their lives. Young people haven't been the important demographic in this hobby since slot cars appeared in the 1960s.

There are plenty of relatively inexpensive kits on the market, Accurail et al. Personally, I found Blue Box to be junk, but there are still tens of thousands for sale on eBay and elsewhere if you want to do final assembly on a mediocre kit. It is not modeling.

Amazed how many old fogies judge the world by the yardsticks of 30 or 40 years ago. I'm old, but I recognize that things change. And why does everyone quote list prices for the current day and street prices for the past?

Once you consider inflation, the hobby is not really more expensive than in the past (if at all) and hobby electronics (such as DCC) especially have become amazingly affordable compared to the equivalent technology in the 1970-1990 period.

Same old tired "Too Expensive" threads over and over again. Maybe you should take up whittlin' if the hobby is too rich for your blood.
 
I will agree with the prices going up. Prices are going up on everything, but for me, my model railroading budget comes from what is left over after necessities are paid for. Disposable ??? income.

I am lucky enough to have bought the majority of my locomotives and rolling stock back in the 80's but am always on the lookout for anything that would work for my layout. The majority of my locomotives are Older Atlas Alcos that came out in the early 80's. I don't think I paid over $60 for them and they run as good as anything I have seen new on the market.

I am like trailrider, a one man operation. I had considered DCC, but very seldom have more than one train in operation at a time on a switching layout. I had run a PFM sound system years back. It was nice to have the steam sound, but not necessary. A few months back, while traveling out of state, I was operating on a very large layout that was DCC and there were so many locomotives running around with sound that it got to the point where it was really annoying.

I will admit that the details on the new locomotives is great. I spent quite a few hours putting detail parts on my old Alcos and custom painting them. Many of the details parts are now on the new equipment, but the prices. Ouch! Many of the locomotives are now available in DCC configuration only, which I don't need. I realize that most will run on DC, but I sure can't see paying for something that I don't need.

Most all of my rolling stock is Athearn Blue Box kits, many of which were undecorated, and than custom painted and weathered. They cost me about $6 apiece. Some of the new freight cars coming out are really well detailed, but I sure can't see paying $40 plus for them. A little work on less detailed cars can save some big bucks.

I will have to admit that manufacturers in the hobby have stepped up to the plate when you lood at all of the building kits, detail parts and other accessories we now have. Many plastic kits are extremely well detailed and with a bit of work can look as good as a craftsman kit.

This is a great hobby, but I know for a fact that some are scared off at the high prices of some of the items being offered, but if one takes the time and effort, costs can be contained. It's a great hobby and I wouldn't give it up for anything.
 
GenSet said:
Young people haven't been the important demographic in this hobby since slot cars appeared in the 1960s.

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I agree that some of what we have is crying.

But the statement here is death to the hobby. How many on here picked up the hobby for the first time late in life? In fact, every single new member I have read about had trains early in life, usually thanks to Dad or Mom.

As far as I am concerned, the greatest thing about DCC is it made really nice DC locomotives super affordable and available. Also, with the advent of EBAY and the huge used market, it is a lot easier to buy stuff and sell the stuff we outgrow.

What I see is a distinct difference in attitudes, one that cares about others, and the hobby as a whole; and another that cares about themselves in a nose in the air kind of way. This, we will not change.

lasm
 
logandsawman said:
But the statement here is death to the hobby. How many on here picked up the hobby for the first time late in life? In fact, every single new member I have read about had trains early in life, usually thanks to Dad or Mom.

As far as I am concerned, the greatest thing about DCC is it made really nice DC locomotives super affordable and available. Also, with the advent of EBAY and the huge used market, it is a lot easier to buy stuff and sell the stuff we outgrow.

What I see is a distinct difference in attitudes, one that cares about others, and the hobby as a whole; and another that cares about themselves in a nose in the air kind of way. This, we will not change.

lasm
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I guess you are taking a shot at me. I am the last person you should accuse of not caring about others. My modular group sets up at various venues and encourages interaction with children of all ages. But bottom line, the hobby has been supported by older people for at least 40 years. Thomas on our layout and on the BRIO tables is a big hit at the shows -- trains are just as interesting to kids as they ever were. But they are going to go to college and start families and they will come back to the hobby.

Tsk-tsking on an internet forum about the realities of the Consumer Price Index and inflation does nothing for anyone.

How many kids have you interacted with in the last six months around the hobby, "lasm"?
 
GenSet said:
Once you consider inflation, the hobby is not really more expensive than in the past (if at all) and hobby electronics (such as DCC) especially have become amazingly affordable compared to the equivalent technology in the 1970-1990 period.

Same old tired "Too Expensive" threads over and over again. Maybe you should take up whittlin' if the hobby is too rich for your blood.
Click to expand...

Too true. The manufacturers are making what we the market asked for. Too expensive? Swap meets, estate sales, e-Bay, and so on.

Nuff said!
 
I'm 62 years old, on a very limited income ($800.00 a month) although I own my home, and I have decided to re-enter the hobby. I've been gone since the late 1980's. Some things have been shockers. $799.99 plastic locomotives for one, 499.99 plastic desmiles for another. I accepted it though. I had 200 pieces of brass, most painted (by me) all boxed when the divorce auditors took it to auction in 1998, lots of money, broken heart again for me. Most of the rest, plastic loco's (there were some diesels and rolling stock, plastic except for cabeese (I modeled U.P.) and misc. Coming back into the hobby made me look at pricing.

I also looked in my storage and found 21 various size boxes filled with Paint, landscape materials, brass pieces, wood, styrene, and a little bit of rolling stock including a box of "junk loco's" Tyco steam, an old Bachmann 0-6-0, and a couple of AHM switchers. A couple of RS-2 kitbashed diesels too. (I loved Alco Diesels, no high quality plastic ones were manufactured) I kept finding more goodies for a few weeks (I'm a little disabled) It now looks like my biggest expense will be lumber and track. I've even had fun and purchased a Bachmann 44t (undec) and 70t (undec) for new stuff. Much of my insperation comes from the thread here: http://www.modelrailroadforums.com/...ing-the-Pinacle-Creek-Mining-amp-Timber-Co-RR . He hasn't spent a lot of money there.

If I was thirty with virtually unlimited financial assets I might be excited by the "big stuff" but I'm rounding the bend and want a more relaxed atmosphere and lifestyle. Watching a 44t pull a short string of cars tickles me to death. I don't have to worry about the "$800.00 steamers" anymore. They probably wouldn't like my 24 in radius mainline anyway. Not to mention the ugly overhang bouncing off the landscape. Nope Tichy coal hoppers, a few log flats, and a smattering of off road freight in a 1940's layout tickles me pink.

I'll share too, with my church, my neighborhood, and all my friends online. Benchwork going up soon, it probably won't be the Pinnacle Creek but it will be fun.
 
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