H & W RR -- second try

[t_wheeler]

The "H&W Spaghetti Bowl" has evolved quite a bit. The new track plan keeps much of the spirit of the old, but is significantly reworked.

The operations plan is to switch the sidings in the "city" in the upper-left quadrant, running trains up to and down from the marshaling yard (which will also have some engine facilities). Trains can also come from or go to off-layout points via staging. (The staging is 7" below the mainline to hopefully allow for some Hand-of-God switching.)

Scenically, most of the layout will be urban; the bottom and right will be rural/suburban using a viewblock (the blue line, location approximate in at this point) to separate the two areas visually. The mainline and marshaling yard are vertically separated by about 5".

Not shown yet is which parts of the trackwork are hidden, which includes: all staging track (green); the section of reversing loop that is under the marshaling yard; and parts of the track leading to the marshaling yard. Nearly all of the mainline track (blue) will be visible, as will the entirety of the marshaling yard.

Turnouts are #6 on the mainline, #4 on sidings.
Max grade is 2.6%.
Minimum radius is 18 inches.

Concerns:
There are a couple places where the trackwork comes awfully close to the edge of the benchwork. If this is problematic I have a little room to scoot things around -- or tack on a couple inches of length (a slippery slope, I realize).

There is one really complex bit of trackwork near the upper-left corner where the mainline and reverse loop meet. That crossover involves a 22" radius curved piece of track and a straight piece. I'm not afraid of a little handlaid track, but is this potentially problematic operationally?

My main question remains the same as before: can I build this thing and have it operate reliably?

Best,
Thomas

 

[Cjcrescent]

My main question remains the same as before: can I build this thing and have it operate reliably?

Best,
Thomas

Better drawn plan Thomas. My answer is yes, it can be built. Can it reliably operate? That's gonna depend on how good of a builder, of both the benchwork and the trackwork you are. If this is your first layout, you are gonna need a lot of physical help from someone who has built layouts before. If you've had experience, then maybe not, but its always good to have help on hand.

 

[wheeler1963]

Thomas, the blue track is seen track correct? The green is hidden underneath? And the tan is?? I'm not a big fan of running trains right next to the edge. I lost a lot of good trains that way on the first layout. Are you planning DC or DCC??

 

[t_wheeler]

Better drawn plan Thomas. My answer is yes, it can be built. Can it reliably operate? That's gonna depend on how good of a builder, of both the benchwork and the trackwork you are. If this is your first layout, you are gonna need a lot of physical help from someone who has built layouts before. If you've had experience, then maybe not, but its always good to have help on hand.

Thanks Cj. And aye, there's the rub. This is my first "real" layout, but I am planning for a lot of trial-and-error and walk-before-you-run practice. I've always been a pretty good learner, and while my first few runs of track might look like a stretch of rail after being beat on for a decade by heavy steam traffic , I'm confident I'll get there eventually.

Thomas, the blue track is seen track correct? The green is hidden underneath? And the tan is?? I'm not a big fan of running trains right next to the edge. I lost a lot of good trains that way on the first layout. Are you planning DC or DCC??

Blue is the mainline and pretty much all visible; green is staging and pretty much all hidden; and tan is (combined) receiving, classification, and departure yard with a bit of space for engine/car repairs and maintenance. Yes, that track along the edge bugs me every time I look at it, and that tells me it's gotta get fixed.

I'm planning to use DCC for the motive power, manual throws for reachable turnouts, and switch machines for distant turnouts (the classification yard).

Best,
Thomas

 

[wheeler1963]

Thomas, so your hidden track will be below?? There is a discussion going on right now about reverse loops, I know they can be tricky on a DCC layout. Also the type of switches you'll need to use matters.

 

[t_wheeler]

Thomas, so your hidden track will be below?? There is a discussion going on right now about reverse loops, I know they can be tricky on a DCC layout. Also the type of switches you'll need to use matters.

Yep, everything that's green will be hidden. Thanks for the tip on reverse loops...I'll see if I can hunt down the thread you mention. I'm guessing it's an issue of having to reverse the DCC signals in the loop, and (critically) the locomotive/system detecting when it enters the reverse loop so it can continue to properly decode the DCC commands.

Addendum: I found http://www.wiringfordcc.com/index.htm and read the intro to DCC page. It looks like the main two tricky bits are (1) using an auto-reverser, (2) never have two trains enter the reverse loop simultaneously, and (3) you can't allow a train that's longer than the reverse loop into the loop. (Whoops, that's "two" for very large values of two.)

Best,
Thomas

 

[t_wheeler]

Here are a few more modifications. Major changes:

- I eliminated the dodgy/tricky crossover where the reverse loop crossed the mainline. (The reverse loop is now contained entirely inside the mainline loop.)
- Got rid of a few S curves, mostly in the industry spurs/turnouts on the upper-left area.
- Made room for a short industry spur on the right side.
- The track from the mainline to the staging tracks no longer crosses over itself on the way to the staging. This track is now longer, which means the staging tracks are now 8" below the mainline instead of 7".
- I've also marked the hidden track.

Blue is the mainline, brown is the classification yard, green is staging.

Best,
Thomas

 

[DoubleDAZ]

I like the changes, especially the streamlined access to the staging area.

 

[cengel]

Have you thought about how you are going to access track in the middle of the table. Seems like you have a 4 foot reach to some parts of the table with the backdrop in place.

 

[steinjr]

Hi --

Couple of quick comments (I don't have time to try to make a copy of the track plan to test things):

1) 5 x9 layout on a table. It is in a room of what size - do you have at least 9 x 13 feet of open floor space you can use for the layout and minimum 2 foot aisles around the entire layout?

If you need to push it up against a wall on one side - will it be what is the right side in the drawings?

2) You might have said if before, but I don't remember - what is the expected train length and the era/type of cars you want to model?

Judged by the length of your staging tracks on the green level and passing siding on the blue level, trains at at max about 6 feet (ie engine, about ten 40' cars and possibly a caboose) feet long.

But the longest runaround track on the top (brown) level seems only about 4 feet or so long, and I am not totally clear on how much level space you will have to hold excess cars on the main by the town/industry/whatever it is at upper left end of the blue tracks.

3) Leftmost picture - is it really about 15 feet of incline from the turnout in the middle of the left end to the first turnout of the yard (where it is labeled 9")? Max 2.6% incline with 4.75" of vertical distance indicates that the length of the incline is about 15 feet.

I would have guessed incline here to about 3.5% or so, if I had to hazard a guess, but I could very well be totally wrong - inclines are hard to visualize from a drawing - at least for me, who is not used to this style of layout.

4) Is there enough room for the depth of a backdrop between the blue and the brown track? What are you planning to use to make the backdrop, and how will you support it?

5) Yard

Length of runaround relative to train length - is it long enough for a whole train?

Left end crossover in your yard - seemingly not space for a locomotive between the crossover and end of track

Yard tracks seemingly have a sharp(ish) radius curve. You will need a curve of radius about 5 times the length of the longest rolling stock for trouble free coupling on curves. Curve radius used here and longest rolling stock that will be used?

As it is, your yard seemingly have the capacity to hold about 2 x 3 feet of cars - or put another way - in H0 scale about six 40' cars on each of the two lowermost tracks.

It is possible that straightening the yard tracks down towards the lower left hand corner will improve coupling and give you more usable track space.

6) You seem to have a reversing loop on the blue level - it seems to be connected to the main in such a way that trains going counter-clockwise around the outer blue loop can reverse directions, but trains going clockwise on the outer blue loop will have to back up through the reversing loop to change directions.

7) Potential reach issue blue layout reversing loop, end of loop closest to the center of the table - backdrop to the south, decline to staging below, yard above.

8) Potential reach issue turnouts at center of brown level yard

I have not tried to evaluate the thickness of benchwork/supports below track and how that affects access on the level below - it is too hard for me to visualize, since I don't have enough experience with this style of layout.

I have not tried to evaluate whether the layout have sufficient space for buildings, roads and other scenery.

Let's see - that "quick" evaluation took me about - 50 minutes. Oh well. Time to head back to bed and see if I can grab another hour of sleep before work.

Grin,
Stein

 

[t_wheeler]

Have you thought about how you are going to access track in the middle of the table. Seems like you have a 4 foot reach to some parts of the table with the backdrop in place.

Yes, I've thought about it, although with a lot of unhappiness. (See more below.)

Hi --

Couple of quick comments (I don't have time to try to make a copy of the track plan to test things):

...

Let's see - that "quick" evaluation took me about - 50 minutes. Oh well. Time to head back to bed and see if I can grab another hour of sleep before work.

Grin,
Stein

1) The layout is in the game room, which is about 20' square. Regrettably, I must share the space with the wife and kids, so an around-the-walls style isn't feasible. (But I can dream....)

2) The trackwork dictates shorter motive power and cars, and yes, maximum train length will be about 6'. This will be a largely imagineered layout in terms of era because the kids will be driving many of the decisions. We may end up with a modern recycling plant which is serviced by a train pulled by a 1940s era 2-6-0 locomotive.

3) Yep, XtrkCad tells me the grade on that incline is 2.6%. Using my finger as a ruler gives me about 14 inches of length. The curves deceive the eye; it doesn't "look right" to me either.

4) I haven't given the backdrop construction any serious thought. I guess I'll have to do a little thinking/research here -- I kind of assumed since it's not structural and made of something pretty thin I wouldn't have any trouble there.

5) Good points on the yard, I admit I hadn't fully done my homework there. I think the right answer is to stretch the whole thing towards the southwest corner. That'll give me a little more length and reduce the radius to allow for longer cars and better decoupling. However, I'd kind of figured on using a couple of magnetic decouplers on straight sections and then gently pushing cars to their resting spot, so I wasn't too worried about the curves.

6) Correct on the reversing loop. As currently envisioned, the main purpose for this loop is to allow a train to come from staging, go around the mainline, and then use the reversing loop to go back to staging. Possibly with a bit of switching to pick up or drop off a car or two. We're politely ignoring the fact that the same train goes back to the same place it came from.

7 & 8) The reach issues: With the reversing loop, I plan to make it reachable from below. The yard is a bit of an issue, with all those turnouts right smack in the middle of the table. Cengel also pointed this out. *sigh*. I can feel a major redesign coming: put the yard along the upper-left and towards the center-left; and the industry spurs where the yard is currently located. I think, maybe, I can see how to do this without starting from scratch.

As for benchwork, yeah, that has me a little concerned, but I think I have enough track separation to be able to construct supports that will be structurally sound. The table framework itself is 5/8" plywood with 2x4s used around the outside edge and as joists (about 20" spacing). I'll be cutting holes in the plywood as needed, for any construction issues and to be able to reach hidden track from under the table (yeesh, I know).

And no, there won't be a lot of room for not-train-related scenery. I'm good with that.

Thanks stein, I really appreciate the quick evaluation. My "quick reply" took me about an hour. Time well spent...cuz it was spent on railroading!

Best,
Thomas

 

[steinjr]

1) The layout is in the game room, which is about 20' square. Regrettably, I must share the space with the wife and kids, so an around-the-walls style isn't feasible. (But I can dream....)

Hmm - got a drawing of the entire room, showing where the layout will go and what else is in the room?

It is possibly (but not guaranteed) that some other shape layout (neither all around all walls nor big rectangle in the middle of the floor) would be possible in the same amount of floor space (depending on other uses of the various aisles around the layout).

Smile,
Stein

 

[t_wheeler]

Here's a rough diagram of the game room. Moving the toy/game storage is non-negotiable. Moving the couch and TV is non-negotiable. Not shown is the pool table situated under the train table.

Your move.

Best,
Thomas

 

[DoubleDAZ]

Not shown is the pool table situated under the train table.

What are your plans for the pool table? Do you plan on moving the layout to play pool? I sure hope not.

As far as reach goes, a table 5' wide with access all around means a reach of only 2.5'. However, there are a few things at play here that will increase "your" reach significantly. For one thing, you have a 2x4 base topped with 3/4" plywood. You also have a lower level 7" below grade and an upper level 9" above grade. That means you will have a lot of track some 20" above the height of the pool table. Add the backdrop and your reach to the upper level tracks will be limited to the front of the layout and extend to 5' or more. This will be very tough to deal with, especially for track/scenery repair. If the backdrop is easily removed, so you can get access from the back, the 2.5' plus the 20" elevation may still be problematic.

 

[cengel]

That is unfortunate that you can't push it into a corner and maybe give yourself more room and do a U shape or something. You might look at trying to do a double sided layout with the backdrop down the middle. Would help with the reach issue. I am designing one of a similar size that I think I may be ready to post and get some feedback.

 

[steinjr]

Here's a rough diagram of the game room. Moving the toy/game storage is non-negotiable.

Why is moving them non-negotiable? Is the reason you cannot touch them that they for some reason have to remain in exact those spots, or is the main objection not losing storage capacity?

How tall and deep are these shelves?

Moving the couch and TV is non-negotiable.

Mmm - makes sense - those need to be fairly accessible relative to the door opening

Not shown is the pool table situated under the train table.

Which of the three most common sizes pool table do you have - 4.5x9 feet, 4x8 feet or 3.5x7 feet?

Playing surface of a pool table should be about 30" high, railing about 32" high. Add about 4" under the bottommost track layout, track layers going from -5" to +9" - call it about 14" - so top layer of layout would be at about 52" - about chest height for a grown man (same height as the main part of my layout) - not that high, but a bit high for small kids - what it the ages of your kids?

Planning to keep that pool table and have the layout resting on the table, or is getting rid of the pool table an option to simplify the room layout and creating more options?

If you are keeping the pool table, are you planning to be able to move the layout off it in order to use that pool table, or do you just need to be able to store it (family heirloom or some such thing) ?

Smile,
Stein

 

[t_wheeler]

Hi and thanks for the continuing comments.

The pool table is 4x8 feet, and it will probably go on Craiglist. Either that or I'll put some wheels on the train table legs and we can roll it out of the way to play pool.

I just realized something that's misleading about the elevations. Long story short, when I originally put in the staging I already had elevations for everything else...consequently, the elevation for the staging was a negative number. I haven't gotten around to fixing that yet. So the staging is at -5.5", the mainline at 3.5", and the yard at 9", meaning the total elevation from staging to yard is 14.5". That mitigates the reach issue to some degree, but I'm still going to try to rework per my comment above.

Just having an ugly (to my wife) train table in the game room has cost me a lot of "points" with her...I don't have near enough capital to be able to negotiate the changes necessary for putting a layout against the wall, desirable as that would be from my point of view. Someday we'll move, and then I can negotiate for a spare bedroom. (And in the meantime I can dream about what I could do in a 20x20 foot gameroom....)

Stein, you've got the height pretty close. Right now it's a little on the tall side for my son (age 10), but he'll grow into it -- and in the meantime he can stand on a stool to see.

Cengel, I'll look for your track plan...maybe we can leverage each other's designs a bit and I'll try to give you some feedback.

Best,
Thomas

 

[cengel]

5) Good points on the yard, I admit I hadn't fully done my homework there. I think the right answer is to stretch the whole thing towards the southwest corner. That'll give me a little more length and reduce the radius to allow for longer cars and better decoupling. However, I'd kind of figured on using a couple of magnetic decouplers on straight sections and then gently pushing cars to their resting spot, so I wasn't too worried about the curves.

The curves in the yard are more of an issue for recoupling the cars as they tend to not work well when the cars are sitting on a curve.

The uncoupling can work as you described by having the decouplers off the yard tracks and push in the cars.

 

[steinjr]

Just having an ugly (to my wife) train table in the game room has cost me a lot of "points" with her...I don't have near enough capital to be able to negotiate the changes necessary for putting a layout against the wall, desirable as that would be from my point of view.

It might depend on how you sell it.

At one stage I had talked my wife into allowing me to do a 7 foot shelf layout in our living room - by promising to make the front look furniture quality, and putting quite a bit of book shelf storage under the layout. Far less intrusive than putting a big table in the center of the floor.

Which is why I asked about the height of those storage shelves, and whether the important thing was storage capacity or shelf location.

If these shelves e.g. are less than 5 feet tall, you could quite conceivably put a narrowish layout on a shelf above the storage shelf, and maybe put up some nice looking storage cabinets for extra storage capacity on the wall above the layout.

If you went N scale instead of H0 scale, you could e.g. do a dogbone with turnback loops at the ends on shelves - most of the shelf could be 12-14" deep, the blobs at the end about 30" deep. Long run along the right wall and over towards, but not quite all the way to the couch, with plenty of opportunity for over/under passes, tunnels, some scenes at the lowest level, some on the highest level.

You could potentially promise that the front of the layout will be covered in a nice furniture quality looking fascia.

That kid's storage could be in roll-away boxes (again with furniture quality fronts) that go on the floor under the layout, and are easy to transport around the house when kids wants toys elsewhere, or when you are picking up toys.

Or offer room for a bigger crafts area, maybe with an added table and shelves along a dividing wall between the TV and the crafts area, with an extra wall acting as a view block between the crafts area and the sofa, giving room for some shelves towards the crafts area and some pictures etc towards the sofa side.

Or offer to make the layout in a shelf with a swing down attractive looking front, so the front can be closed to hide the layout when she doesn't want it to be visible (say if you have guests, or during the construction phase).

I suspect that a 5x9 foot construction area in the middle of the room might be harder to accept over time than having you construct sections somewhere else and just mounting them on a shelf along the wall as you get section after section finished enough to move them into the room - that way all painting and other stuff that smells or makes noise or create messes can be done elsewhere.

Lots of possible approaches to making a sale. Main trick to selling is to tell the possible buyer that you can give him or her something they wants, instead of trying to convince them to give you something you want.

Course - it might be more may more work and cost (both in cash and in goodwill) than it is worth to fish around for a different solution. Only you can tell what (if anything) might be a worthwhile approach with your wife and your room.

And when all is said and all is done, keeping the spouse reasonably happy is, for most of us, normally far more important than a layout

Grin,
Stein

 

[t_wheeler]

The curves in the yard are more of an issue for recoupling the cars as they tend to not work well when the cars are sitting on a curve.

Right, I knew that once upon a time. I gotta re-read some of my books.... Thanks.

It might depend on how you sell it.

...

And when all is said and all is done, keeping the spouse reasonably happy is, for most of us, normally far more important than a layout

Yeah, it does depend on how you sell it, and it looks like you've done a good job of creating a win-win with your Mrs. Stein. Way to go. And now I know who to get ideas from when I have the opportunity to re-negotiate, you have some great thoughts!

Best,
Thomas