Container Car Tracking,...derails etc


B

beiland

Well-Known Member
I just purchased two sets of these container cars.
https://www.walthers.com/thrall-5-u...un-ttx-dttx-740428-large-black-and-white-logo
thrall_5-unit_rebuilt_40_well_car_ready_to_run_910-55608_big.jpg

I was rather pleasantly surprised that they turned out to have metal frames/bodies. My thought was that these should track VERY well even in an empty state.
yes


I decided to give them a little test on my peninsula container yard track. I hooked up two together and ran them by hand thru the end of the yard with a 3-way Peco turnout at its end,...
image-20210413084130-2-700x1290.jpeg

I was totally surprised at the multiple derailments that occurred with the wheels of the shared truck between the 2 cars,...and mostly when I was pushing them thru in the diverging track direction. Surely the short length of these cars, and their heavy weight would have prevented this? And after all,.... my 48' plastic framed container cars did NOT seem to have any such problems??

As I investigated more closely I determined that the nice metal wheels and trucks of the trucks trailing the first truck were actually picking the frog point of that 3-way turnout. Adding some weight (or extra downward pressure) did not always alleviate the situation (as John Garity has noted on another forum).

One solution that appeared to help was a slight loosening of the truck screw on the one that appeared to want to climb the frog point. That helped,...but I fear is not the ultimate solution.



I think the best solution is going to be the shimming of that guard rails across from the frog. These Peco turnouts just have too wide of a slot there as has been discussed in a number of other threads. The slightly tighter slot keeps the truck from picking the frog point.

So I have decided to shim all of my Peco 3-ways,...I have a total of at least 5 Peco ones on my layout, and at least 3 Roco ones. (the Roco ones have not presented themselves as a problem yet).



I underlined that posting above as I believe the adjustment of the truck screw might have as big a detrimental effect as the too-wide slot in the turnouts.


I'm now thinking that these new container cars that I had received came with their trucks rather tightly bound up from their factory assemble process,..and thus needed to be loosened up a little on one end, ....the coupler end in particular, as the other end is riding on that fixed pivot pin.?


When I loosened up on that truck's screw it made things a lot better. It made me think this idea might just be applicable to other container cars we might purchase new,...some fine tuning.

Anyone else experience such a problem with container cars?
 
Last edited:
No rolling stock, or loco, goes on my layout without first being fine tuned. Kadee whisker couplers, metal wheels, trucks tuned, NMRA proper weight +, is a minimum. Trucks are inspected and tuned to make sure they perform smoothly and properly. I don't think I have ever purchased any type of rolling stock, or loco that didn't need fine tuning. Glenn
 
I'm not surprised that you had some derailments through the maze of track at the entrance to the container yard. While they are supposed to navigate 22" curves, they do better on broader curves. Fine tune the cars, possibly shaving/filing off material as well. As a five-car unit, do they actually fit on your intermodal yard tracks? They can only go out on the same route that they come in on, since they don't disconnect. I do like the fact that Walther's made their well cars out of metal, I have a few singles myself.
 
The truck tuning concept I referred to is discussed here,..

https://modelrailroadforums.com/for...-tune-up-january-2018-model-railroader.29906/

Here is another opinion,..
Most cars rock for just a few reasons -
1) Wheels are out of round - I refuse to run Delrin/plastic wheels because of this. I prefer Intermountain metal wheelsets, but will use any metal from a reputable manufacturer. Also, Delrin is a "self lubricating" plastic. That property causes wheels to accumulate dirt more readily and that dirt can cause a "lump" on the tire causing wobble. I have found that metal wheels tend to stay cleaner and also help keep the track cleaner too, at least makes better electrical contact

2) The trucks are not properly tightened. In the old "Athearn days," the kingpins were too long and you could not tighten the screw down without bottoming out and the trucks were still too loose, OR you forced the tightening and the kingpin bulged and then the truck was very tight, but it still would allow wobble. I file down the kingpin to just a ½ millimeter shorter than the kingpin then can use the screw to obtain proper tightening.

I do not adhere to the policy of "one truck tight, one truck loose" either. It is hard to explain, but there is a tightness that allows the trucks to have just enough freedom to swivel and not enough to rock. It comes with trial and learning, i.e., "experience" and tightening perhaps as little as 1/16 to 1/8 of a turn of the screw to get it right. If you lightly "flip" the truck and it turns without a rebound, you have just about the right spacing between the screw head. kingpin and truck bolster. Do it for both ends and watch your operations significantly improve.
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
santafewillie said:
I'm not surprised that you had some derailments through the maze of track at the entrance to the container yard. While they are supposed to navigate 22" curves, they do better on broader curves. Fine tune the cars, possibly shaving/filing off material as well. As a five-car unit, do they actually fit on your intermodal yard tracks? They can only go out on the same route that they come in on, since they don't disconnect. I do like the fact that Walther's made their well cars out of metal, I have a few singles myself.
Click to expand...

Surprisingly my container yard tracks don't have any radi less than 24". The slip switch at the entrance has minimum of 24", and the double curves even greater at 60" and 30". The 3-way at the exit is minimum24",...and of course as you pointed out I would not be able to run a multi-unit of these cars onto that 'escape track'.

What I discovered at first were that they were derailing primarily when I ran than (2 of them) in the reverse direction ( from the points end) thru that 3-way. At first I assumed the cars were picking the frog due to the excessive flangeway width of the Peco. But on much closer inspection I actually found that the tightness of trucks combined with the stiffness of the cars frame was actually causing the leading wheels of the track to lift just barely leading to the point picking. Loosening up on that truck's pivot screw seemed to solve things. I just had not thought of this problem existing with unit-container cars before this.

I decided to add the shims to that Peco 3-way as I had noticed that its 24" diverging radi could case some point picking with some of my steam engines, and even while I do not expect to be operating any long steam engines thru that turnout, I just thought the be part of caution I might as well shim it.
 
If they are picking the points on the switches the first thing I would check is whether the wheels are in gauge. You can never assume wheel sets are in gauge out of the box.

The next thing I would check is the track. Make sure all the points and frogs are in gauge. Turnouts are a pain in the butt.
 
At the moment I think I have my problem fixed by adjusting the trucks for balance.

Just wondering if others have experienced problems with getting their variety of these cars to operate flawlessly??
 
beiland said:
So no one else has experienced tracking problems with container cars????
Click to expand...
Nope, all the points that others talked about are all things I do also. The only other thing I do is the truck tuner for the wheels. You'd be surprised how much plastic comes out from them being drilled.
www.micromark.com

HO & On30 Truck Tuner

DetailsTruck Tuner Makes 'em Really RollTunes HO & On30 scale railroad truck bearingsMeets NMRA’s recommended 60-degree contourCleans burrs and grimeA Micro-Mark ExclusiveIncreases train length that a locomotive can pull by 20%
www.micromark.com www.micromark.com
 
I now remove all coupler pins. They don't provide a realistic replication of hoses and they most certainly cause derailments. It is not only a matter of the pin being too low. All of my pins were "fixed" using Kadee coupler trip pin pliers and I would still get unexplained derailments. Since removing the pins, I can't remember the last time I had a derailment. YMMV Glenn
 

3-Point Suspension​


Back a number of years ago when I was first reentering the hobby, I recall getting a magazine that dealt with tips and hints. I went looking for a copy the other day. I could not find it even while I knew I had at least 2 copies of it !!

I'm pretty sure that is where I first read of the '3-point suspension' concept that was almost touted as a rule.
I was trying to find that magazine to verify exactly how they described it. I also did a little searching on some forums, and was rather surprised i did NOT find too many references to 'this rule' ?

When I started experiencing my problems with derailments of those new metal framed container cars, that 3-point suspension idea came to mind,....
But on much closer inspection I actually found that the tightness of trucks combined with the stiffness of the cars frame was actually causing the 'leading truck wheels' to lift just barely leading to the point picking. Loosening up on that truck's pivot screw seemed to solve things. I just had not thought of this problem existing with unit-container cars before this.
Click to expand...

Several questions come to mind.
1) Is this 'rule' totally applicable to all our freight cars?
2) Is this rule applicable to our container cars, and particularly ones with shared trucks between cars?

(our double-stack container cars can have considerable weight up top that might need tighter trucks to keep them from rocking so much)
 
I found these two older references,....


Another Thought​

Tue, 2015-12-15 13:38 — wp8thsub
One thing to keep in mind is allowing trucks a reasonably full range of movement. The "three point suspension" idea (tightening one screw to allow the truck to turn only, while the other is more free to rock), can get you into trouble with random train consists as will happen during op sessions. I've found that derailments can be greatly decreased by allowing both trucks to both turn and rock in all directions. Cars that are relatively light and/or long benefit from the ability to lean a bit on the trucks. If one truck is so tight it can't rock sideways on the bolster, it's far more likely to cause a derailment in someplace like a helix where it has to handle a lot of curvature. One screw can still be tighter than the other to keep the car from slopping around.
Work on the bolsters if needed to eliminate obstacles to trucks rocking. Some cars, like Accurail's 89' pig flats, and the old Front Range ACF covered hoppers, have problematic bolsters that interfere with truck movement. In some cases, the easiest solution in HO is to go with Kadee trucks with the "self centering" bolsters, which transfer all responsibility for truck motion onto the truck bolster assembly, and require only a flat mounting surface. I've cured a few problem cars by filing the body bolster smooth and adding Kadee trucks.
Click to expand...







Three Point Suspension​

Thu, 2016-09-08 09:53 — anteaum2666
I agree with Rob on the "three point suspension" problem. I tuned all of my otherwise properly weighted cars in this manner because I had read so much about it. The result was a lot of random derailments, even on straight track. Loosening the tightened truck resolved the issue.
Michael A. - Superintendent and Chief Engineer
Click to expand...
 

Track Testing Cars​


These Walthers metal container cars have become my 'track testing cars'. By that I mean if I wish to find defects in my track work. I just need to back a string of these cars over that section of tracks.turnouts,..invariable one of the adjoining trucks (or even leading truck) will find the problem,..often showing up at the frog of a turnout. I continue to be surprised how easily these cars can derail.

I have now come to another question of tuning these cars. I am beginning to question the 'stiffness' of the connection between these cars that are sharing a single truck. On the metal Walthers cars it does appear as though 'pin and hole' connection may be a little too tight resulting in an added rigidness between cars that makes them act as a much longer stiff car (that can lift one corner excessively).

I think I first need to learn the vocabulary of these joints so I can discuss them more intelligently, My first google brought me here,... https://www.trackopedia.info/encyclopedia/railway-vehicles/types-of-bogies
 
You must log in or register to reply here.



Back
Top