Consisting

[CMMR]

I have a few questions regarding consisting that I was hoping the wise folks here on the forum could help me out with.


The first regards prototypical consists with say 3 locomotives at the front of the train with the middle and rear unit facing backwards. On the middle and rear units, which of the following typically operates ie: bell, horn, headlight, number boards?


The second question regards setting up a locomotive in JMRI for advanced consisting. Is there any way that you can set up a locomotive for multiple consists? For example, say I want the unit to be in the lead position in one consist and at the rear in another.

How do most of you have yours set up?

BTW, I am running Econami and LokSound decoders with an NCE Power Cab.

Thanks

 

[montanan]

I am a DCC dummy but I can answer your questions partially. At the model railroad club that I go to in Livingston, MT they have quite a grade on the layout. I have seem members running long trains with three at the head end, one in the middle and one or two at the rear to get long trains up the grade. I have also seen them move locomotives to different locations in the train, plus have a set of helpers, two to three locomotives to hale the train up the grade and then cut off and go back down the grade.

With Bozeman Pass directly west of Livingston, this can be seen on a regular basis. I have also seen the helpers go to the bottom of the pass and then wait for an eastbound train to help over the pass. So far as lighting at night, only the lead locomotive is lit and operates the horns and bells. So far as which direction the additional locomotive are facing, I don't know if there are any rules as I have seen them facing in both directions. I see this just about every night when I leave the club and head west over the pass.

 

[CMMR]

Thanks for the reply Chet - I guess the only other prototype question I would have is what if you reverse direction. Would that put the rear unit's headlight on?

As for the JMRI, here is a screenshot of the setup page for one of my units. Can anyone tell me what the FWDD section abbreviations stand for?

 

[montanan]

What I see going over Bozeman Pass are usually long trains. A lot of unit trains such as grain, coal and tank cars, and have never seen an entire train reverse direction. On some trains going over the pass I have seen as many as 9 locomotives. Most common is around 6. 4 at the the head end and 2 at the rear. As many as 5 at the head end and four taking up the rear. Occasionally there may be a helper or 2 in the middle. I have a good friend who lives on the west side of the pass and while enjoying a barbeque, I have watched them gut out the westbound helpers and then head back east over the pass to Livingston and only the lead unit again has the headlights on.

At night when I leave the club there is usually a westbound train sitting right along side the depot where the club is and I have to drive right past the head end when leaving the parking lot and only the lead locomotive has any lights on. Any additional units are blacked out.

 

[bnsf971]

The way it should work, unless somebody forgot to turn something off, is the front engine will have headlights, class lights if used, and numberboards lighted. All other engines should have all lights off, with the exception of step lights. The very last engine at the rear of the train should have some form of marker showing to the rear for protection. At night that marker should be lighted in some manner. Generally, those lights are rearward-facing headlights on low setting. Ditch lights or numberboards would not be lighted.

 

[cv_acr]

On the middle and rear units, which of the following typically operates ie: bell, horn, headlight, number boards?

None of the above. All of these on the lead unit only.

Is there any way that you can set up a locomotive for multiple consists? For example, say I want the unit to be in the lead position in one consist and at the rear in another.

No, basic logic will tell you an engine can only ever be in one consist (set of engines) at a time.....

The newer NCE systems though allow you to identify the front and rear units of a consist though when setting up a consist, making it double ended so you can select either the lead or rear engine in order to operate the consist in the preferred direction. I think that's really what you're meaning to accomplish? To be able to run the SAME set of engines in either direction with the appropriate lead unit.

 

[cv_acr]

The very last engine at the rear of the train should have some form of marker showing to the rear for protection.

Markers are required at the end of the entire TRAIN, not the last engine in the consist. (Unless the engines are pushers at the rear of the train...)

 

[CMMR]

The newer NCE systems though allow you to identify the front and rear units of a consist though when setting up a consist, making it double ended so you can select either the lead or rear engine in order to operate the consist in the preferred direction. I think that's really what you're meaning to accomplish? To be able to run the SAME set of engines in either direction with the appropriate lead unit.

Thanks for the reply Chris;

After looking at the Econami manual again I realized that it explains how to do what I want by adjusting CV's 19, 21 & 22. I guess I will have to set up a little table with the settings for these CV's corresponding to each consist and set them manually with the Power Cab. Still not what was hoping for but better than nothing. What I was really hoping for was that there was a way in JMRI to have these CV numbers preset for each consist number.

 

[montanan]

Gary, I can see what you are trying to do and have seen club members do this all of the time. They seem to have the process down pretty well as it doesn't take them long to program their locomotives.

Here's a bit of a pun. I still operated DC at home. My layout is built mainly for switching with a normal local freight being from say 8 to 15 cars. A while back I got bore or something and u=just started adding cars and locomotives to a train. I have a two and a half percent grde on the layout so some power was needed. This video is the short version as I had at the end 97 cars with three locomotives at the head end, one in the middel and one at the rear. Unfortunately, the battery died recording the longest train.

[video=youtube;3p6VEsjM1tc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3p6VEsjM1tc[/video]

All of my Alco locomotives, I have 12 that I painted for my railroad are all the very first RS units that Atlas released and all run at almost the exact same speed. Consisting is easy for me.

 

[cv_acr]

Thanks for the reply Chris;

After looking at the Econami manual again I realized that it explains how to do what I want by adjusting CV's 19, 21 & 22. I guess I will have to set up a little table with the settings for these CV's corresponding to each consist and set them manually with the Power Cab. Still not what was hoping for but better than nothing. What I was really hoping for was that there was a way in JMRI to have these CV numbers preset for each consist number.

Why bother with dinking around with CV 19 directly to consist? Setting up consists is dead easy with the NCE throttle. You don't ever need to screw around with those three CVs directly. The system takes care of that on the fly.

*Edit - well, you might tweak 21/22 on your engines, but just once, and set them all the same and never need to change them again. They should be reasonably set from the factory, but these control the answer to the question "if I turn on X (e.g. headlights) for the consist, does it control each engine or just the leader". You never need to be manually changing them later in order to make up or take apart a consist.

CV 19 the command system will handle for you when you set up an "Advanced" consist through the system. Which is dead easy and you never ever need to actually manually program those CVs.

 

[CMMR]

Why bother with dinking around with CV 19 directly to consist? Setting up consists is dead easy with the NCE throttle. You don't ever need to screw around with those three CVs directly. The system takes care of that on the fly.

*Edit - well, you might tweak 21/22 on your engines, but just once, and set them all the same and never need to change them again. They should be reasonably set from the factory, but these control the answer to the question "if I turn on X (e.g. headlights) for the consist, does it control each engine or just the leader". You never need to be manually changing them later in order to make up or take apart a consist.

CV 19 the command system will handle for you when you set up an "Advanced" consist through the system. Which is dead easy and you never ever need to actually manually program those CVs.

Chris - I don't see how you can get away with only setting CV's 21 & 22 only once if you run a locomotive both at the front and middle / rear of different consists. When i set up a consist on my Power Cab, it only asks for the locomotive numbers and positions. It does not change the light / bell / horn functions on any of the units though. These must be set manually if you change the locomotive's position from anything other than normal.

 

[bnsf971]

Markers are required at the end of the entire TRAIN, not the last engine in the consist. (Unless the engines are pushers at the rear of the train...)

That IS what we're discussing, lead, mid-train, and end of train helpers.

 

[cv_acr]

Chris - I don't see how you can get away with only setting CV's 21 & 22 only once if you run a locomotive both at the front and middle / rear of different consists. When i set up a consist on my Power Cab, it only asks for the locomotive numbers and positions. It does not change the light / bell / horn functions on any of the units though. These must be set manually if you change the locomotive's position from anything other than normal.

No they don't. If it's the lead unit of the consist, it will response to those functions when addressed to the consist. If it's not, it won't.

And consists are simple to make and break using the throttle. Absolutely no need to ever mess around with the CVs every single time...

 

[CMMR]

No they don't. If it's the lead unit of the consist, it will response to those functions when addressed to the consist. If it's not, it won't.

And consists are simple to make and break using the throttle. Absolutely no need to ever mess around with the CVs every single time...

That's not true on my Power Cab. If I have a unit set as middle or rear it's lights, bell and horn will still function unless I turn them off manually.

 

[cv_acr]

That's not true on my Power Cab. If I have a unit set as middle or rear it's lights, bell and horn will still function unless I turn them off manually.

Then your CV 21/22 are set wrong, but once it's fixed you shouldn't need to deal with again.

I make/break consists all the time with an NCE system, and I've NEVER gone in and changed a value in any of those three CVs when doing so. And while I put headlights on, they come on on only the lead unit - whichever unit that happened to be. If I clear out that consist, rearrange the engines and remake the consist then only the lead unit's headlight will turn on - whichever unit that happens to be.

Once 21/22 are set properly you should never have to think about it again.

And you never have to do anything to 19, as the system does that for you when you set up or clear a consist, or add or delete a locomotive to same.

 

[CMMR]

Ok - thanks for the info Chris. I will have to play around some more because I am still having a hard time getting my head around the CV21 / 22 thing.

 

[cv_acr]

Actually if you try setting CV 21 and 22 both to 0 - that would make NONE of the lighting and function commands go through to the engine(s) that aren't the lead unit driving the consist.

If there are any specific function commands that you *do* want all engines to respond to (like F8 sound startup/mute) then specifically turn those back on. (You do need to understand binary in order to add the bits together to come up with the correct value for the CV(s), but this is where JMRI should make things easier since these are standard CVs I'd expect a nice set of checkboxes somewhere - although I've not actually used JMRI myself...)

Also, when you set up the consist using the throttle, you are choosing "Advanced" not "Standard"/"Basic"/"Universal" (not looking at my throttle at the moment, forget which word they used there)? "Universal" may not work in this manner and just control all the locomotives with the functions. "Advanced" is what you want...

Simple guide:

https://sites.google.com/site/markgurries/home/nce-info/nce-consisting

Here's an extract:

How to set CV21/22 correctly for consist-wide function commands

- Make sure you have enabled SEND FUNCTION COMMANDS TO CONSIST ADDRESS in SETUP COMMAND STATION.

- Configure the bits in CV21/22 in every loco so that only those functions applicable to whole-of-consist are on. Leave the rest off.

- For example, with my LokSound diesels, the only functions applicable to whole-of-consist are F5 dynamic brakes, F6 prime mover startup/shutdown, F7 air brakes and F8 volume/mute. So I configure CV21 to have a value of 240 and CV22 to have a value of 0 on all my LokSound diesels. (I didn't calculate that value the hard way with pen and paper, I just told JMRI Decoder Pro which functions I wanted to respond to the consist address and it did the hard work for me. I never program using the throttle, that is too difficult when there is a much easier way.)