Building Rio Grande Narrow Gauge Wagons - Help Required


GEfan

GEfan

Active Member
I am currently looking at thoughts on scratch-building a K37 and some wagons ... akin to those on the old Denver & Rio Grande Western narrow gauge lines. I am nowhere near the two preserved sections however (being on another continent!) and while I can find some pictures, am struggling to find any details on line.

Does anyone have any dimensions (wheel size, bogie lengths, frame/body length, width, height) for the wooden box, open, lumber and cattle cars at all? And can anyone provide any close up or detailed images of the above? Anything would be gratefully received - and I can provide an email address for images if that is easier?

Being in England, it's not a simple pop over and have a look job! I am going to be modelling in 5.5mm to the foot (or 1:55) scale, and would be happy to share details and images of the work as it progresses if anyone is interested.

Cheers
Richie
 
A typical boxcar was 30' long, 8' high and 8' wide with 27" wheels. There were some 40' boxcars but fewer. A K27, if you are chancing an operating model (not dummy) would be quite a task!

There are a number of sources on the Internet. Narrow Gauge and Shoreline Gazette is a bi monthly publication, there is the narrow gauge annual and some of these are available digitally via subscription. The D&RGW is one of the most popular modeling subjects and there should be drawings and photos available with considerable internet searching.

Good luck!
 
747flier won't mind a small typo correction I know: It's actually "Narrow Gauge and Shortline Gazette." His dimensions are pretty much spot on.

The D&RGW has got to be the most well known and popular narrow gauge railroad in North America, and also the most well documented, so don't be discouraged if you can't find plans and dimensions right off--info and plans are DEFINITELY out there.

THESE search terms: "Rio Grande narrow gauge boxcar plans"

returns URLs like this one: https://www.quickpicbooks.com/files/2ndcent10/2ndCent_10.html
with some plans like that one:
1695324700600.jpeg


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One reason your search might not have yielded immediate fruit is your use of the term "wagons." The enclosed cars are actually called "boxcars" over here on the west side of the pond. Other types should be roughly the same though: tank car, flatcar, stock cars*...and perhaps snowplow and rotary snowplow (the D&RGW certainly needed both of those). What you call a van or brake van (I think) would be known as a "caboose" over here, etc.

What you call bogies, we call "trucks."

[* stock cars might also be described as "livestock cars."]

The other one I'm not sure about are what we call "gondolas" vs. your terminology, but these are roughly described as flat bottom cars (like flatcars), but with wood sides, typically about half the height of a boxcar. Open top, for stone, coal, gravel, etc. If they are unloaded from doors on the bottom, we call them "hoppers," but the Rio Grande standard was the gondola. It might surprise you learn these were sometimes unloaded using the rotary method, wherein the entire car is uncoupled and rolled lengthwise through 135 degrees or so to dump the load, but that method WAS used at times, as seen here:

https://www.facebook.com/RussyBabyP...om-monarch-from-narrow-gauge/954911188014427/

You might also hunt around for info/plans for the "Rio Grande Southern," which interchanged directly with the Rio Grande (at both ends) and which used pretty much the same plans as did the much larger road.

A couple other North American 3' narrow gauge railroads: East Broad Top and the White Pass and Yukon (which 747flier is modeling). When it comes to narrow gauge, there was quite a lot of it over here, even if most of it didn't last for long.

Have fun, and good luck!
 
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Currently there are several operating narrow gauge railroads in the USA. Most are currently for tourists and rail fans. The Durango and Silverton is on elf the most famous, the EBT runs tour trains, the Cumbres and Toltec and then the White Pass and Yukon which carries great numbers of Cruise ship tourists. Many of these lines at various times sold equipment back and forth. For instance the WP&YR used a number of the ubiquitous Colorado and Southern Boxcars.

Apologies from any typos or "spell'n" issues, I have a 30,000 word vocabulary of which maybe I can spell only 10,000 on a good day!

Go look at "White River Productions" dot com for an extensive series of publications on narrow gauge railroading.

Cheers: Tom
 
Guys,
That is great many, many thanks. @747flier - those measurements should be enough to get some rough ideas started, so thanks for posting those, and I'd never heard of the NG&SL Gazette, I'll take a look at that publication and see if it can be obtained digitally.

@Snowman Oh you are a star! I'd tried Rio Grande Rolling Stock for Modellers and things such as that, and draw a total blank on drawings. That book never flagged up either. The may well have to be acquired! But I'll take your advice an try searching on your suggested thoughts. Yes I forget about the vocabulary changes. The gondolas on this side of the pond would be easily known as 'open wagons' or if they are bodied 'open bogies'.

I am really just trying to come up with some CAD drawings to establish what is viable, and moving from 4mm to 5.5mm to the foot on ( modified ) HO 16.5mm trackwork helps! I have pretty much worked out a way to get the chassis for a K-37 loco CNC milled out of a brass block, which would allow the outside frames, wheels, gearbox and motor, and possibly DCC speaker to be all securely held in place in the boiler area, beyond that its really all detailing. I also think I can CNC the side rods for the wheels and the various motion parts.

Layout wise, it may be Rio Grande, it may end up being a fictional narrow gauge short(ish)-line that used K37s - thats all probably in the future. I can see the concept of a couple of box cars being built up, painted and weathered first - if they work OK, then start to attempt the loco over the winter and Christmas period - gives me something to do!

Thanks for your advice guys, much appreciated.
Richie
 
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BTW, as Tom said, "White River Productions" is a great source for so many books and publications. They are the owner/publishers of "Railroad Model Craftsman," which is one of two big US MRR magazines (the other being "Model Railroader"). IMO, RMC magazine is the better of the two these days.
 
GEfan said:
Guys,
That is great many, many thanks. @747flier - those measurements should be enough to get some rough ideas started, so thanks for posting those, and I'd never heard of the NG&SL Gazette, I'll take a look at that publication and see if it can be obtained digitally.

@Snowman Oh you are a star! I'd tried Rio Grande Rolling Stock for Modellers and things such as that, and draw a total blank on drawings. That book never flagged up either. The may well have to be acquired! But I'll take your advice an try searching on your suggested thoughts. Yes I forget about the vocabulary changes. The gondolas on this side of the pond would be easily known as 'open wagons' or if they are bodied 'open bogies'.

I am really just trying to come up with some CAD drawings to establish what is viable, and moving from 4mm to 5.5mm to the foot on ( modified ) HO 16.5mm trackwork helps! I have pretty much worked out a way to get the chassis for a K-37 loco CNC milled out of a brass block, which would allow the outside frames, wheels, gearbox and motor, and possibly DCC speaker to be all securely held in place in the boiler area, beyond that its really all detailing. I also think I can CNC the side rods for the wheels and the various motion parts.

Layout wise, it may be Rio Grande, it may end up being a fictional narrow gauge short(ish)-line that used K37s - thats all probably in the future. I can see the concept of a couple of box cars being built up, painted and weathered first - if they work OK, then start to attempt the loco over the winter and Christmas period - gives me something to do!

Thanks for your advice guys, much appreciated.
Richie
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Would that be "OO scale then?" Pretty rare, methinks, at least over here. More likely on our side might be "On30," which I think uses O scale (1/48) over HO track, running gear, and all the rest. 30 being 30" between the rails, rather than 36."*

[* There is, similarly, a variant known as "HOn30," which is HO scale running on N scale track and running gear...("yadda-yadda-yadda". You get the idea, I'm sure).
 
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747flier said:
What construction methods are you envisioning for the "wagons"?
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I am thinking of possibly a lightweight wooden or plasticard frame with laser cut sides, and brass detailing for the body, along with etched brass trucks.
 
Snowman said:
Would that be "OO scale then?" Pretty rare, methinks, at least over here. More likely on our side might be "On30," which I think uses O scale (1/48) over HO track, running gear, and all the rest. 30 being 30" between the rails, rather than 36."*

[* There is, similarly, a variant known as "HOn30," which is HO scale running on N scale track and running gear...("yadda-yadda-yadda". You get the idea, I'm sure).
Click to expand...
Hi,
4mm to the foot, 1/78 I think, is OO. Yes On30 would be 7mm to the foot or 1/48 (probably 1/43 over here).

We have a small 5.5mm scale contingent which models the two foot narrow gauge lines. We didn’t have three foot over here, except the system on the Isle of Mann and a small amount in Ireland. But for modelling three foot gauge, it’s a nice size. Doesn’t need the space of On30, and 3ft x 5.5mm to the foot = 16.5mm which is OO Scale trackwork, which means wheels and track items for handbuild track is easily acquireable.

Space means I may come down to 4mm to the foot, which would need 12mm trackwork (again available in Europe, but at 3mm to the foot normally, it’s not a particularly well used scale in the UK).

In 5.5mm Scale, cars would come out at 165mm long (6.5 inches) while a K-37 is about 375mm (14.75 inches). In 4mm Scale, those figures are 120mm (4.75 inches) and 272.5mm (10.75 inches) so a bit more manageable I suspect. Thinking on a loco and 20 cars it’s about twelve and a quarter feet in 5.5mm, but only nine feet in 4mm Scale. in terms of an eventual layout, I have a 21 foot x 11 foot room to play with.
 
HON3 is not a huge area of the hobby, but there are various items available. Some operating items such as trucks and couplers are useful. I used some commercial trucks till I was able to achieve a satisfactory 3D home printed item, of course I still used commercial (Kadee) wheel sets. I had previously made my own wheels but that was a major PITA. A HO scale K series engine isn't really big so the size of motor isn't huge unless you can forego the boiler blackhead. Getting enough weight is always an issue, the Diesels have so much more volume under the "hood". Always nice to have a RTR loco of some sorts while you are working on yours!

Good luck!
 
WRP: As Tom knows and just said (I had to go look it up), White River Productions is the current publisher of NG&SG, but the magazine itself goes way back. To the early eighties at least I think, as I have a few issues from way back then myself.

It seems to me that there should be a collection of plans and drawings someone put together (from all the years NG&SG--the publishers themselves would should have done this themselves) available for free download or purchased download in .pdf form/format. If you could find something like that, it would be a lot easier and cheaper to get plans across the pond that way than via a book.

I know Mainline Modeler magazine was archived this way, and that entire collection, including plans, can be had by purchase-download for a bit more than $80 US.

[RIP Bob Hundman: https://www.trains.com/mrr/news-reviews/news/in-memoriam-robert-bob-hundman/]
 
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I thought I had seen some where that the digital issues of NG&SLG were archived, but this might not be true. Worth looking into!
 
Thanks guys,
I am assessing space to work out the scale, then sit and work out what can be done with milled brass for the loco chassis (and possibly wagon trucks to get some low down weight, then looking at the motor positioning and how all the detailing can be done 3D print or etched, or hand made. Then I'll take a decision as how to go forward.

In terms having a RTR loco, not really sure anything suitable is available at the moment, but I have my modern day N Gauge BNSF Rock Creek Canyon to keep me occupied there!

@747flier - thanks for the coach drawings they really help.

Rich
 
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