Brass prices, they are falling, atleast at shows


malletman

malletman

Alcohaulic
For those out there that say brass is still to expensive, I call BS and you are not looking hard enough at shows. Case in point, at yesterdays show at the Lincoln Square Mall in Urbana, IL, it was a gold mine of very affordable brass. Lets start with the big 6 axle diesel I got for $200! Factory painted, lighted, never has touched the rails till this morning, Overland IC SD70. Was buried under a pile of Athearn Genesis diesels, but I seen that green box and I never assume its priced like we see them at dealers or ebay. Price on the box was $200. I texted my wife as all high doller purchases have to go thru her or my trustee(I am autistic). Once I had approval, I gave him a deposit and make a quick trip across the street to the bank machine for a bit more cash. Our live steam G scale group was there running trains on our portable layout so I was at the show all day. I got busy for awhile, but then made another trip around the tables around lunch time(show was very busy all day). I found a PFM brass DRGW caboose in its box for $18 and an old brass(probably IMP models) bulkhead flat for $5. I bought both and my friend got a Hallmark SP long drovers caboose for $10 in its original box. These were just mixed in among all the other plastic freight cars in thier boxes on this older gentleman's table. He was selling some of his mostly DRGW collection. All the lids were flipped open so one could see the models. I totally missed these on my first couple rounds of the tables that morning. At the end of the show, the friend of the gentleman that I got the SD70 from showed me this book covering the first 10 years of Overland Models, which I bought from him for $40. SO....... the good deals are out there, usually not on ebay when it comes to stuff like Overland diesels and such. And the gentleman with the SD70 was not from the older/less computer friendly generation. His prices were really good on most everything and his table was very empty by the end of the first day. While I spent way more than my wife and I budgeted for the show, we both were pleased at the items I bought for really super good prices. So, watch those tables closely, ask if the box isn't marked with a price, and I encourage others to offer a bit more than asking price if its a widow, alone, trying to sell her late husbands stuff. I like to think we as a group are a bit more honest and better than some folk and will take care of the late modelers widow and not take to much advantage of the situation. Anyhow, here are some pics. Mike the Aspie.
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Very nice haul! Love the cab and the bulkhead flat!
Stuff like that does not seem to fall my direction.:mad:
 
Just takes attending as many local shows as you can, this one wasnt quite "local" being a 3 hour drive each way. But I was there with our live steam group. I also wonder if some of these "one table wonders" have more trains below in boxes and as things sell, more apprear on the table thru the day? The SD70 I found the moment I carried the first load of my trains to our layout. The other items i found around lunch time or toward the end of the day. More and more of these trains are coming out of the closets, attics and storage areas as modelers age, downsize or pass on. I did not haggle on any of these items, I was happy to pay their asking price. Mike the Aspie
 
I have scored a few brass WP cabooses that way. Many came with poor trucks, no paint or glazing. But They are true "durable goods" and worth the time to honor their long-suffering wait in a box stuffed into a dark closet. :)

Chas.
 
It was normal for older brass to need "finished out" by the new owner. Even more modern brass cabooses have poor rolling trucks. But most do ok once a bit of lubrication is added to the axle ends. I love my brass, the only non brass engines are a pair of Rivarossi steamers, a deluxe 0-6-0 with a NWSL regear kit that I installed, and a Casey Jones ten wheeler that needs to get its regear kit installed yet. Everything else is brass, not that I have a large collection. 5 diesels, 1 steam and 1 trolley in HO and 1 trolley in O scale. I have 4 interurbans but they are pending sold right now. The diesels are all Overland Models except 1 older Alco Models GP40 that has been rebuilt with better trucks, Sagami motor and is next in line for paint. Mike
 
A friend of mine is re-motoring and installing DCC in a collection of brass steamers. They look great and run like a fine watches. He spend a lot of time fine tuning the running gear after the re-motoring.

All have custom paint jobs.

Greg
 
Ken, you have to move up to the later run models with the drives from Samhongsa or Ajin. Diesels got decent drives in the early 1980s, first from Samhongsa, and those get much better with some good break in time. Then Ajin came up with their drive with sprung trucks and individual gear boxes on each axle that look like traction motors. Those are darn near silent once properly lubricated and run in some. Brass comes close to bone dry for a reason, the oil can migrate to the plastic wrapper and then onto the nicely painted body while the model is being shipped from overseas or while the model is stored away in the box. Many models are never run, many never leave the box. So protecting the finish is more important than having the model layout ready. Owners that plan to run thier models are expected to be able to properly lubricate the locomotive before it is put into service. Those "coffee grinder" drives were the early diesel drives that use exposed, straight cut spur gears on the gear towers. They can be made to run very smooth with a can motor and 8 wheel power pickup, but the gear noise will remain. Older Alco Models, Hallmark, NJ Custom Brass, Redball, all used Kumata in Japan as the builder, and that was thier style of drive. Samhongsa in Korea first used something similar but then came up with something much quieter but not sprung, then they came up with sprung version about the same time that Ajin came up with thier sprung drive trucks. That SD70 of mine has a Buhler can motor, sprung trucks and is as quiet as a Kato diesel after a few min running on my rolling road. Here is a pic of the drive system in a later model Overland/Ajin diesel.
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as you can see, its a very simple drive system. Low profile gear tower allows for a full cab interior, then there are individual gear boxes that resemble traction motors on each axle. Very smooth and quiet once lubricated and run in for a bit.
 
Here is the earlier "tank" drive by Overland/Ajin, A bit noiser than the later tower drive but still quieter than a blue box Athearn. This drive uses drive shafts that exit each end of the fuel tank, much like many O scale 2 rail diesels have.
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Here is a Samhongsa drive from a Oriental Limited F3 diesel. Noise level ranges from about the same as an Athearn blue box to nearly silent, noise level drops as model gets some run time on it and the gears get run in. Some of these are prone to split gears, but spares are available from NWSL for now.
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Here is one of your coffee grinder drives, this is in a Alco Models/Kumata RS32 diesel. The exposed straight cut gears are the source of the noise and are prone to split, both plastic and brass replacements can be gotten from NWSL for now. Some of these have metal axle gears and some have plastic. The plastic ones are prone to splitting. Many guys retruck these models with Atlas/Kato or Athearn Blue box trucks with the correct style side frames.
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MIKE -- Thanks very much for the explanation ... I now think that I understand much better!

First - Take the "Coffee Grinder" noise out by installation of new gears and motors ----
Second - Install sound speakers along with decoders to put the "Coffee Grinder" sound back in! :rolleyes::cool::p
 
No problem, its the straight cut spur gears that are the source of the noise in those models. NWSL offers slant or helical cut gears but you have to know of know what your doing to swap them into the model. If you want a quiet running older brass, replacement trucks is the best option or save up and by an Overland Models import. The prices on some of them have come down in recent times. Some are still sky high as the newest runs are very small, like less than 10 of each road name. That SD70 that I bought is serial number 32 out of 55 made in 1996. This is what contributes to the high cost of brass and what we now see in higher prices for plastic due to "limited runs" Cheers Mike
 
Sirfoldalot said:
MIKE -- Thanks very much for the explanation ... I now think that I understand much better!

First - Take the "Coffee Grinder" noise out by installation of new gears and motors ----
Second - Install sound speakers along with decoders to put the "Coffee Grinder" sound back in! :rolleyes::cool::p
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That's funny. Kind of true too! I've stopped putting sound in everything. It's a novelty I've found I can do without. There is also the problem of what it can do to a brass model's value. I've done some sound installs in brass, but other models, especially the rarer pieces I leave alone. No structural alterations, no drilling holes, etc. Non sound decoders can be installed easily with no alterations necessary. When installing can motors I keep the original motor and hardware in case a future owner wants to return the model to factory condition.
 
malletman said:
For those out there that say brass is still to expensive, I call BS and you are not looking hard enough at shows. Case in point, at yesterdays show at the Lincoln Square Mall in Urbana, IL, it was a gold mine of very affordable brass. Lets start with the big 6 axle diesel I got for $200!
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For common pieces, yes. Somewhere on here I posted about getting a Westside GS-4 4-8-4 steamer, still in the original box, coupler never fitted, no wheel wear, decals never applied (the model was factory painted and they gave you decals so you could choose which lettering scheme and number you wanted) for $195.00. It helped that I bought it in Wisconsin, far away from that railroad's location. In any case nice score! I've noticed many models dropping in price with a few exceptions:
Crowns, or any model with low runs. True, modern stuff has very low run numbers which keeps unit pricing high but this also happened in the 70's and 80's. I have a Westside GS-3 that took me forever to get. There were only 100 made.
Head end cars. With passenger train modeling being one of my key interests I've run into this a lot! Even older lightly detailed Soho RPO and baggage cars command high prices for what you get. Plus you have to paint, and the trucks are usually crap, but if you want an accurate model, it's those or resin kits! Current passenger car models are also maintaining high prices. The Coach Yard is doing a heathy business these days. They do beautiful stuff but it'll break your wallet! (Guess how I know this!) ;)
 
Anything with super low production numbers should(and there are exceptions to everything) hold their value or go up. Its a shame that Overland is gone now from the brass importing business. I would take their diesels over the fragile plastic ones any day, but the rising costs killed their market. Once prices for 6 axle diesels pushed up to 1K or higher, that was it. Runs of 10 or less of each road name didn't help either. A friend would love to have one of the KCS GE's in the Belle paint scheme, but try to find one, let alone afford it if you do. The real steals and deals will remain mostly at shows and sometimes on ebay. But I see way more "wishing" prices on ebay, case in point are all the OMI diesels that Trainz Auctions has on there right now, with few if any selling. And most all of them have been relisted for months with no takers, yet they retain the same asking prices. For the next several years, many many models are going to coming out of closets, collections and estates as the owners pass on. Its great time to be looking for and buying older brass models IMHO. Mike
 
Is there anything published that states how many models of a given type have been/were produced?

I see you guys mentioned a few here, but I wish to see a list!
 
Sirfoldalot said:
Is there anything published that states how many models of a given type have been/were produced?

I see you guys mentioned a few here, but I wish to see a list!
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Brass Trains has a pretty comprehensive list of what happened when, both in book form and on their website. It's not perfect, but it's pretty close. There's also John Glaab's "Brown Book of Brass". It's a little long in the tooth, but the two supplement each other nicely. It doesn't give numbers, but "Lenahan's Locomotive Lexicon" gives a really good photographic record of production up to the Late 1970's / early 1980's. But I date myself. Copies of that one are hard to come by!
 
I have the brown book, it cuts off in the mid 1990's, EMD SD60s are about the newest EMD diesels listed, so everything that came afterwards is not in there as there never was another edition put out. The Brass Guide is the new online referance, and it gets better the more models others submit to the guide and it covers more than engines/trolleys/railcars. It covers all brass in all scales.
 
There is also this book, only covers Overland models from the first 10 years of importing, but a neat book to look thru. There is one on ebay usually.
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