Anyone know which batteries work best in Digitrax DT402D throttles?
- Thread starter CbrandonB
- Start date
Thanks! I am hoping to be using it enough to justify buying rechargeable batteries. 
I'm thinking these should work well: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0045KJ0Q6...UTF8&colid=I5PS9G5QE9AY&coliid=I3583LTEJFYI2H
They're a little more expensive than I'd like, but they could also be worse.
Brandon
I'm thinking these should work well: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0045KJ0Q6...UTF8&colid=I5PS9G5QE9AY&coliid=I3583LTEJFYI2H
They're a little more expensive than I'd like, but they could also be worse.
Brandon
MikeOwnby
Active Member
I'm using LiIon, and while they don't start out at a full 9V, they also don't run down anywhere NEAR as fast. I was having to recharge NiMh every time I turned around, seemed like, and since I switched to LiIon a couple weeks ago I'm still on my first battery. And that's with forgetting to disconnect the battery on several occasions. The problem with NiMh is that they do just keep decreasing in voltage to the point where the controller quits communicating. With LiIon it'll maintain a working voltage right up until the point where it dies.
Bruette
Well-Known Member
For rechargeable batteries Lithium Ion batteries would be a better choice over Nickle Cadmium in the long run because battery "memory" is less of a factor. Unless of course you have 2 or more sets on hand and you don't mind recharging more often.
Devices that don't completely discharge the battery before the battery becomes unusable are not a good application for Nickel Cadmium. They work best when fully discharged before recharging. If not the more you recharge them the more they will need to be recharged.
I usually buy the cheapest alkaline battery I can find, about 25 cents per battery or less for AA or AAA. There are only so many battery manufacturers in the world. Find a place that sells a lot of batteries and you will get good fresh batteries.
I do use rechargeable batteries but only in devices that will fully discharge them. For other devices you can pull them out and use them in flash lights, but now with LED flash lights the batteries seem to last forever.
Devices that don't completely discharge the battery before the battery becomes unusable are not a good application for Nickel Cadmium. They work best when fully discharged before recharging. If not the more you recharge them the more they will need to be recharged.
I usually buy the cheapest alkaline battery I can find, about 25 cents per battery or less for AA or AAA. There are only so many battery manufacturers in the world. Find a place that sells a lot of batteries and you will get good fresh batteries.
I do use rechargeable batteries but only in devices that will fully discharge them. For other devices you can pull them out and use them in flash lights, but now with LED flash lights the batteries seem to last forever.
MikeOwnby
Active Member
Not all rechargeables are created equal. Lithium Ion batteries do not develop a memory, and do not need to be fully discharged before recharging. In addition, they maintain a good working voltage right up until the moment they die rather than slowly tapering off like NiCad or Nickel-Metal Hydride batteries do.
I figure the Lithium Ion 9V's I bought are well worth the investment. They'll last much longer and work better than the NiMh. They'll pay for themselves quite easily over their life. Then there's the bonus of not having to be constantly replenishing a stock of batteries or running out of them and not having any.
Thanks for the replies, guys!!!
Thanks for the reply, Mike. I am glad to hear of someone having success with Li-Ion 9v rechargables as they're actually cheaper than NiMH. When I heard warnings of 8.4v batteries, I suspect it was in reference to the NiMH and NiCd 8.4v batteries instead of the Li-Ion. How long have you been using the Li-Ions and what's the longest they've lasted for you? Our operating sessions are usually only about 3 hours, so if they can last that long, that would be perfect.
You bring up a good point. NiMH isn't nearly as bad as NiCd, but they do still have memory. I also fly RC airplanes and have a quad charger that could condition the NiMHs, but who wants to do that?
Thanks for the replies, guys! I think I'll give the LiIon a shot. If they don't work for some reason, I'll probably go with the 9.6v NiMHs I linked earlier.
Brandon
Thanks for the reply, Mike. I am glad to hear of someone having success with Li-Ion 9v rechargables as they're actually cheaper than NiMH. When I heard warnings of 8.4v batteries, I suspect it was in reference to the NiMH and NiCd 8.4v batteries instead of the Li-Ion. How long have you been using the Li-Ions and what's the longest they've lasted for you? Our operating sessions are usually only about 3 hours, so if they can last that long, that would be perfect.
You bring up a good point. NiMH isn't nearly as bad as NiCd, but they do still have memory. I also fly RC airplanes and have a quad charger that could condition the NiMHs, but who wants to do that?
Thanks for the replies, guys! I think I'll give the LiIon a shot. If they don't work for some reason, I'll probably go with the 9.6v NiMHs I linked earlier.
Brandon
MikeOwnby
Active Member
I've only been using them two weeks, so admittedly I don't have the greatest backstory to back up what I'm saying. I also haven't been running trains quite as much this last week because I'm back doing construction. I have been powering the layout up and down, moving trains out of the way as needed, testing turnout motors etc. I'm going to say I've put at least three hours of actual use on it. So with those caveats, I can tell you that I do know by now that one of my NiMh batteries would have dropped too low to keep working. That's for certain. The LiIon is still holding in there just fine. In addition to the actual usage, that's also with walking off and leaving the controller on twice for more than an hour each time. Those two things alone would probably have had my NiMh's in a charger. The LiIon steadily dropped down to about 7.4V after some use, and seems to have stabilized there and I assume will remain there until it's discharged. If It's like my other LiIon batteries, they do keep a good working voltage right up until they discharge. Wish I could give you a more definitive usage history, but I haven't managed to need to recharge one yet.
Thanks for sharing your experience! I may grab one of each and just see what happens. I'm a little nervous about the voltage being that low. Do you know what the cutoff voltage for the Digitrax throttles is?
Also, be careful not to take that battery too low... over-discharging li-ions can damage them, FWIW. I would recommend stopping at 7 volts, although it sounds like it's going to take a while for you to get there!
Brandon
Also, be careful not to take that battery too low... over-discharging li-ions can damage them, FWIW. I would recommend stopping at 7 volts, although it sounds like it's going to take a while for you to get there!
Brandon
MikeOwnby
Active Member
Thanks for sharing your experience! I may grab one of each and just see what happens. I'm a little nervous about the voltage being that low. Do you know what the cutoff voltage for the Digitrax throttles is?
Also, be careful not to take that battery too low... over-discharging li-ions can damage them, FWIW. I would recommend stopping at 7 volts, although it sounds like it's going to take a while for you to get there!
Brandon
It's funny you mention that, because I think at that voltage a NiMh would have quit working, or at least quit working reliably. I would always swap out the NiMh when it got to the mid 7's after experiencing that as the usual trouble point. I'm wondering if the LiIon is actually delivering more consistent amperage even at lower voltage than the NiMh did and whether that would make a difference? I don't honestly know, but I do know that so far the LiIon is definitely lasting longer than the NiMh ever did. Good luck with your experiment
I doubt these 9V's will ever get to the point of discharging completely. It will at some point begin a steep decline as it reaches the last of its charge if it's anything like my power tools. They keep working at pretty much 100% effectiveness right up until the battery is almost discharged rather than tapering off as an old NiCad would have, but as they reach the last of their charge and it drops too low the power tools simply cut out at a certain minimum voltage/amperage/whatever. I would imagine the controller will do the same. We'll see, if I can ever manage to get to that point.
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CSX Robert
Member
Here's the deal with rechargeable "9v" batteries: A typical non-rechargeable battery cell is 1.5 volts - 6 cells in series is 9 volts and that's what they use for a 9 volt battery. A typical rechargeable battery cell is 1.2 volts. Well, you can't get 9 volts out of 1.2 volt cells - 6 cells = 7.2, 7 cells = 8.4, and 8 cells = 9.6. So a "9 volt" rechargeable battery can be anywhere from 7.2 to 9.6 volts (there may even be some 9 cell 10.8 volt ones) . Whatever chemistry battery you get, you want to make sure it's 9.6 volts.
Bruette
Well-Known Member
I agreed with your choice of rechargeable batteries for this application.
While it is true that Lithium Ion batteries are far less effected by battery memory they still suffer from repeated charging when not fully discharged, The effect tends to be more in longevity rather then capacity. You can't believe everything manufacturers tell you because they only tell you the features not the deficiencies.
MikeOwnby
Active Member
With LiIon batteries, it has to do with charging cycles rather than battery "memory". Whereas NiCad and NiMh will begin to have very short battery life if not discharged fully, a LiIon simply has a certain number of times that it can be charged, whether fully or partially discharged doesn't matter. That's why it's still best to let your cell phone use most of its charge before recharging, not because it will develop a "memory" like older types, but because regardless of how far it's run down, it only has a certain number of times it can be plugged into a charger. If you charge a LiIon battery that's at 80% it wears out the battery the same amount as charging one that's at 10%, so ideally you want to use the battery as much as you can before plugging it into the charger. Any rechargeable battery does have a life span, but with LiIon you don't have to worry about keeping the battery "conditioned" like you do with others. It will still gradually decrease in charge life as time goes by, but you don't ever have to worry about running it down all the way to keep the maximum charge life possible for the age of the battery.
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Bruette
Well-Known Member
Without going into complicated chemistry I will just take the easy way out and refer to the modern arbiter of all things, Wikipedia. I will copy and past the second paragraph from the Wikipedia article on Lithium Ion batteries
Lithium-ion batteries are common in consumer electronics. They are one of the most popular types of rechargeable batteries for portable electronics, with a high energy density, small memory effect,[SUP][8][/SUP] and only a slow loss of charge when not in use. Beyond consumer electronics, LIBs are also growing in popularity for military, battery electric vehicle and aerospace applications.[SUP][9][/SUP] For example, lithium-ion batteries are becoming a common replacement for the lead acid batteries that have been used historically for golf carts and utility vehicles. Instead of heavy lead plates and acid electrolyte, the trend is to use lightweight lithium-ion battery packs that can provide the same voltage as lead-acid batteries, so no modification to the vehicle's drive system is required.
and provide a link to the complete article if anyone is interested or needs something to help them fall asleep. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium-ion_battery
As you can see there is still a small memory effect. Supporting what I had said previously "battery memory is less of a factor"
As a real world example, although I admit one example is not scientific, I will point to my Nokia 6133 cell phone with the original 3.7v 820mAh Lithium Ion battery. It is now nearly 9 years old and still last between 7-10 days between charges. I have always completely discharged it before recharging it and obviously you can see I seldom use it. My daughter did test it recently when her Apple I phone 6 broke, yes she can spend money with the best of them. She used my phone for a day and was amazed that the battery never died. Only because my phone's internet capabilities are limited and she could not use Facebook, but she can also talk with the best of them!
To sum up and return to point, I will copy and paste from my original post to this thread:
"For rechargeable batteries Lithium Ion batteries would be a better choice over Nickle Cadmium in the long run because battery "memory" is less of a factor."
I apologize to the original poster for taking this thread off point and I promise this will be my last post to this thread regarding Lithium Ion batteries.
[h=1]Memory effect now also found in lithium-ion batteries[/h][h=5]April 15, 2013 by Leonid Leiva[/h]
Read more at: http://phys.org/news/2013-04-memory-effect-lithium-ion-batteries.html#jCp
Lithium-ion batteries are common in consumer electronics. They are one of the most popular types of rechargeable batteries for portable electronics, with a high energy density, small memory effect,[SUP][8][/SUP] and only a slow loss of charge when not in use. Beyond consumer electronics, LIBs are also growing in popularity for military, battery electric vehicle and aerospace applications.[SUP][9][/SUP] For example, lithium-ion batteries are becoming a common replacement for the lead acid batteries that have been used historically for golf carts and utility vehicles. Instead of heavy lead plates and acid electrolyte, the trend is to use lightweight lithium-ion battery packs that can provide the same voltage as lead-acid batteries, so no modification to the vehicle's drive system is required.
and provide a link to the complete article if anyone is interested or needs something to help them fall asleep. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium-ion_battery
As you can see there is still a small memory effect. Supporting what I had said previously "battery memory is less of a factor"
As a real world example, although I admit one example is not scientific, I will point to my Nokia 6133 cell phone with the original 3.7v 820mAh Lithium Ion battery. It is now nearly 9 years old and still last between 7-10 days between charges. I have always completely discharged it before recharging it and obviously you can see I seldom use it. My daughter did test it recently when her Apple I phone 6 broke, yes she can spend money with the best of them. She used my phone for a day and was amazed that the battery never died. Only because my phone's internet capabilities are limited and she could not use Facebook, but she can also talk with the best of them!
To sum up and return to point, I will copy and paste from my original post to this thread:
"For rechargeable batteries Lithium Ion batteries would be a better choice over Nickle Cadmium in the long run because battery "memory" is less of a factor."
I apologize to the original poster for taking this thread off point and I promise this will be my last post to this thread regarding Lithium Ion batteries.
[h=1]Memory effect now also found in lithium-ion batteries[/h][h=5]April 15, 2013 by Leonid Leiva[/h]
Read more at: http://phys.org/news/2013-04-memory-effect-lithium-ion-batteries.html#jCp
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Bruette
Well-Known Member
No need to apologize to me. I believe this to be on topic, personally.
Brandon
Brandon, thank you for your patience and consideration. Sine I have been retired I have a tendency to over think things. Too much time on my hands I suppose. As my grandsons are getting older they are taking up more of my time and solving that problem. Just one of the many benefits they provide me with, thank God for my boys!
No worries Mike, When they first came on the retail market they claimed exactly what you said and kept on doing so and are still cleverly doing it. Now that the evidence is in they are carefully wording their claims. I never believed them from the start, but I am a skeptic at heart.
You can't trust manufacturers; in the late 1890s Bayer Pharmaceuticals of Germany marketed Heroine claiming it was not addictive. It was over 25 years later when the US finally regulated it and later banned it.
Like the old snake oil salesmen manufacturers will say almost anything to make a profit. I just don't understand why they have to lie even about great products.
Some people would rather climb a tree to tell a lie, than stand on the ground and tell the truth.
Bruette
Well-Known Member
Terry you are so very right and I will never know why they do.
That is a question not even you can answer for me.
