Yard Design Feedback

[dave1905]

What makes the separate service lead seem "unprototypical" and impractical in this design is the fact it is parallel to the yard ladder that can easily feed the service tracks. Bottom line for a RR is what does the job that is simple, cheap, and with design dependent on space. I doubt you will find any two yards alike in the US, so ToyGuy could go most any direction he thinks will get the job done for what he wants to do.

Just so we're clear on why I proposed the separate lead, it has NOTHING to do with improving access to the service tracks. The two reasons it was suggested was because as it was drawn, not having a separate lead meant that it consumed 1/3 of the class tracks (since you had to leave the 3rd class track open for tail room), and by making the separate lead it would allow you to create a runaround inside the yard that the switcher could use to spot the tracks on the switchback. Without that runaround it would require the switcher to foul the main track and to use the longest track in the yard as part of the runaround. While that could certainly be done, in order to have one engine run around the cars and spot the switchback in the as drawn plan would mean that only two stub ended class tracks in the yard could contain cars not associated with the move, since ALL the other tracks in the yard would have to be used for the runaround and switchback move. By having the separate lead it and runaround it dramatically increases the flexibility and capacity of the yard.

The reason for the lead isn't about getting engines to and from the service tracks, the reason for the separate lead is to improve the physical capacity of the yard and the situation for the yard engine.

An alternative solution would be to add one additional track to the width of the yard, preserving the 3rd class track as a class track and making a dedicated tail track to get into the service facilities (you still have to clear the main and one track to make a runaround).

 

[RexHea]

Dave, I understand what you were trying to do, but by extending the ladder in the original drawing down to the track marked "Engine service" all class tracks still remain intake; nothing has changed and the main will not be fouled by using the yard lead for its intended purpose. A runaround is always a problem with a single ended yard and I agree that one should be available. The one in Steins lower drawing would work or a separate one on the yard lead to the left would be better.

Another option for ToyGuy would be to flip the lower service area so that entry is from the left, instead of right, and connect directly off the yard lead further to the left. This is still your parallel configuration, but clear of the class yard and giving a better illusion of a separate operation. This also would allow the engine to exit the train before switching is complete. Of course, all this depends on what real estate is available.

From an MR standpoint, a yard this size would not have two physical operators: both a holster and a yard master. Having this in mind, the operator would not be doing both jobs at the same time. Traffic problems would be non-existent.

I'm sure you will agree that what ever design ToyGuy chooses will work for him and what he wants to accomplish.

 

[John P]

I think the start of designing the yard (or any part of a railroad, really) is to ask "What is it meant to do?"

If this is a yard serving a small town and its vicinity, then the questions start with where are the customers, and how are cars delivered/removed? And assuming that through trains between larger yards drop off cars, which way do they travel?

What's traffic like on this line--can you tolerate blocking the main? Note that prototypically, a lead isn't always used; they'll switch on the main if it's not very busy. If you avoid blocking the main as it passes the yard, what about during switching operations by locals?

It's common to have a few businesses switched directly out of the yard, but so far only a fuel dealer has been mentioned. There could be a lumber yard or a feed dealer, and there'd most likely be a freight house and a team track if the era is around 1950. And then if some of these businesses have to be switched from opposite ends, getting a runaround that doesn't involve running the length of the yard twice, or blocking the main, and maybe not the lead, becomes more useful.

And then there's the issue of how this yard gets operated, in human terms. Always solo, or will a visiting crew come in? If it's solo, then you really don't have to make it possible to keep a local freight out of the way of the switcher. But operating as a team can be a lot of fun.

You really ought to have an idea of what's happening on your railroad before you design the yard. A real railroad would definitely do this.

 

[Scordicus]

From an MR standpoint, a yard this size would not have two physical operators: both a holster and a yard master.

Rex excuse my ignorance but what is a holster? I haven't heard of this before. Or more specifically, what is his/her role or job in the yard??

 

[John P]

There is an error there. The word is "hostler". And it comes from the days of horses in stables--the hostler is the guy who moves locomotives around in the engine service area. He'd also be likely to check that the locomotives were in good order and properly filled with fuel and water etc, before they were taken out on the main line.

In Britain I think this word is written without the initial h, and pronounced that way too. Would the h be dropped in American railroad use? I've only ever seen it written, never heard it.

 

[dave1905]

The H is pronounced in the US, "Hoss-ler".

There are "inside" hostlers and "outside" hostlers. Inside hostlers move engines around inside and engine terminal, outside hostlers move engines around the terminal.

I agree this yard would have neither unless he uses steam engines.

 

[steinjr]

I think the start of designing the yard (or any part of a railroad, really) is to ask "What is it meant to do?"

If this is a yard serving a small town and its vicinity, then the questions start with where are the customers, and how are cars delivered/removed? And assuming that through trains between larger yards drop off cars, which way do they travel?

What's traffic like on this line--can you tolerate blocking the main? Note that prototypically, a lead isn't always used; they'll switch on the main if it's not very busy. If you avoid blocking the main as it passes the yard, what about during switching operations by locals?

It's common to have a few businesses switched directly out of the yard, but so far only a fuel dealer has been mentioned. There could be a lumber yard or a feed dealer, and there'd most likely be a freight house and a team track if the era is around 1950. And then if some of these businesses have to be switched from opposite ends, getting a runaround that doesn't involve running the length of the yard twice, or blocking the main, and maybe not the lead, becomes more useful.

And then there's the issue of how this yard gets operated, in human terms. Always solo, or will a visiting crew come in? If it's solo, then you really don't have to make it possible to keep a local freight out of the way of the switcher. But operating as a team can be a lot of fun.

You really ought to have an idea of what's happening on your railroad before you design the yard. A real railroad would definitely do this.

Certainly. The original poster has provided some clues about what he wants:

"This yard will be the main yard for the layout and will be generally in the center of the entire route.

From the left, trains will be entering from "the south" bringing finished goods and some raw materials. Some of the that stuff will be delivered right at the yard station, while other parts of it will be built into other trains making deliveries on the route to the right, headed "North".

So basically the southern and northern runs will be single track mainline with sidings off to various industries for pickup and delivery.

Locomotives and cars will generally "live" in this central yard, so it will need to be sized reasonably for that, and that's why there's engine service and a repair area, that will really be used mostly for storage.

On the northern and southern-most ends of the mainline, I will probably use very small yards to simulate interchanges and provide some minimal storage along with a logical "end" to the line."
​

We also know the size of his total space (10 x 20 feet), that he is planning to run shortish trains (5-7 cars), which combined with the dimensions of the yard indicate H0 scale rather than N scale, and that his goal is to model the Central Vermont during the transition era - so he can run both steam and diesel.

Smile,
Stein

 

[RexHea]

Stein's post reminds me of the two-way traffic on the main: I'm not sure that you have the space or even the desire to turn your locos, but several years ago while browsing through John Armstrong's book I found an idea that would solve many of the problems with my existing yard: install a wye track configuration off the main. This will accommodate trains of both direction, turn locos or rolling stock, provide a lead both directions. My Central Yard is also located in the center of the layout scheme. I followed this idea and totally removed the existing yard, built a peninsula and went to work with a new design. (My design actually comes off a track parallel to the main giving an even longer lead that allows for a holding area of an arrival train.) It has handled Operation Sessions of up to 10 operators smoothly and without a hitch.

It does require extra space and the wye can take up two-three feet of depth leading into the yard. Depending on ToyGuy's present design, it could fit in the middle of the 20 feet section. One layout design that would fit this, would be an "E" style with the middle of the E being the yard. The peninsula at 30"x 6-8 feet plus, could easily accommodate all your trains and needs.

I have attached an old photo that was taken just after the track was laid to give you an idea what I'm talking about. This is a large yard with several sections, but the wye lead-in could be on the left or right, with the ladder and other facilities on the opposite side. I have made a few changes since the photo, but otherwise it has done the job for heavy traffic.

BTW: my engine service facility is located on the other side of the wye, not seen in the photo.

Just another thought for you to play with and perhaps get some ideas from.

 

[steinjr]

Doing a single ended yard on a peninsula with a wye approach is certainly one of many possible options.

Paul Dolkos did that for his Woodsriver Yard on his Boston & Maine layout:

Rough approximation of his track configuration

But there is any number of ways of doing a yard. Thomas Garbelotti ("Scarpia" on various web forums) is building a Central Vermont inspired layout - the Barre Branch, as a sectional layout on the 22nd floor of an apartment building in Abu Dhabi or some such place in the Persian Gulf, where he is teaching.

His entire layout consists of two small towns with two small yards - Montpellier Junction, where trains arrive on the CV from staging. And Barre, where there is an interchange and some local industries.

Track plan is not that complicated - but has plenty of room for interesting switching and running - here is a rough approximation of his track plan:

Here is a yard track plan inspired by Waterbury yard on David Popp's Naugatuck Valley Railroad:

There are lots of way of adding interesting operations to a railroad yard.

Main point is knowing (or figuring out) how you want your yard to work.

Smile,
Stein

 

[RexHea]

That's some very good designs. Both look to have smooth operations and they don't seem to take much real estate.
A good yard design will not only give a person the obvious car storage/exchange, but also provide hours of fun. I have an MR friend that only wants to be the Yard Master when I have an Op session. He usually has a crybaby fit when I have to give someone else a chance.

Hmmm! seems we have lost the original poster .

 

[Toyguy]

Nope, you haven't lost me. I've just been busy laying out track on my benchwork and pushing cars around to try out the various ideas. I am still leaning toward the variant with the single ladder track, but extended all the way down to Servicing to clear up the problem with Class Track 3 being unusable. I believe it will do all I need it to do with the amount of traffic and size of trains I am planning on. I can see it would be very nice to double end the class tracks, but that really jacks up the length so single end will have to do I think.

The Wye designs are interesting, and I will be doing something like that below decks in the hidden staging and run-around tracks.

Dave

 

[steinjr]

Nope, you haven't lost me. I've just been busy laying out track on my benchwork and pushing cars around to try out the various ideas. I am still leaning toward the variant with the single ladder track, but extended all the way down to Servicing to clear up the problem with Class Track 3 being unusable. I believe it will do all I need it to do with the amount of traffic and size of trains I am planning on.

Okay.

Time to start thinking about your desired traffic patterns.

You say that you want most (?) cars and engines to "live" in the central yard.

Does that mean that your primary operational scheme is out-and-back? E.g. having two (or more) local trains start out from the central yard, go out to the end of the layout, do some switching and return back towards the yard?

Say starting your day with some outbound cars in the yard, and one train taking those cars down the line to an interchange track somewhere, where inbound cars from the other railroad is picked up, and outbound cars are left, before the train reverses directions to head back to the yard?

And then a second train will take inbound cars at the yard (having just arrived from interchange) and head north to pull outbound cars from, and spot inbound cars at industries, while a third train will take inbound cars at the yard south to switch industries to the south?

Or are you planning to have trains passing through the area, coming from "down the line" or "up the line" (ie staging) drop off cars at the yard, before continuing towards their destinations (ie staging at the other end of the layout)?

If you are planning to run trains both way on the main, meeting at sidings - will the double ended siding at the yard also be used for meets?

You mentioned running both steam and diesel engines.

While a steam engine certainly can back up tender first down the line pulling cars (or even pushing cars), the railroads generally preferred to turn steam engines if at all possible, before heading back.

With diesels, it is easy enough to have two engines connected tail to tail, so when you run the engine consist past it's cars to head down the line in the opposite direction, you just move the engineer over to the other engine and used that as the front engine heading back.

Have you given any though to turning engines - or at least steam engines?

You mentioned "deliveries at the yard station". You realize, of course, that if you spot cars at the siding by the station, that station/depot will not really work well for passenger trains. Are you planning passenger traffic?

Do you want any other rail served industries near the yard?

There is probably a lot more I could ask about, but you get the general drift of my questions - now it is time to think about how you want to run trains, and see if the yard supports the way you want to run.

Smile,
Stein

 

[Toyguy]

Operationally, I think it will be a mix. Certainly there will be some cars in the yard at "the start of the day" that will need to be delivered in the local area. The under-deck staging areas will launch trains heading north and/or south representing areas outside the local operating region, sort of like Canada and southern Vermont. The mainline will have a number of passing and/or industry sidings so 2-way traffic can be accommodated with some effort, which looks very prototypical for Vermont from my research on the state's trackage.

In the under-deck area, I'm planning a wye arrangement to get trains turned so they can "come back", or so I can route them around so they re-enter from the other end. In having thought about it further, I don't think I'll need the interchange yards, I'll just represent that function as outside of my modeled area and accomodate their traffic with the under-deck staging.

So what I envision is short local freights delivering cars already in the central yard, with northbound and southbound freights servicing side industries with enroute deliveries while they bring the rest of their cars into the central yard for either local delivery or movement further north and south.

I'm not planning any passenger services at all, just freight. As for engine turning, the Engine Service track will extend onto the next module to incorporate a turntable and smalll enginehouse with some storage tracks.

Dave

 

[RexHea]

Dave, seems you have a good starting plan for your operations. I like the idea of staging tracks taking care of "yonder land". Paper plans seldom have every little detail that will be realized, once construction and operations begin. As you go along, don't be hesitant to change for better ideas that come along...we've all done this...me, several times! Hint: After you have laid the track, run your operations for a month or so before any ballasting or scenery is put down. This will let you know if it is what you want or need to make some changes.

 

[steinjr]

Sounds like an entirely workable concept plan. Go for it, and have fun!

Grin,
Stein

 

[Toyguy]

Been away a bit, so finally getting back to working on this. Here's what I am looking at as a design incorporating a bunch of the inputs and suggestions.

There will be some short pieces of track to the right of all the classification tracks to allow the switcher to move from one to the other on either end, as well as the previously-discussed extension of the lead to the left by an amount necessary to allow the withdrawal of a full class-track width of cars.

The Engine service area will either lead off to the next module, with a turntable and engine house, or I may just put in a single engine house in the engine service area and call it good.

I also took a look at a double-ended diamond-style design, but as I suspected it is just too long for my available space, stretching out to something over 12 feet. Adding the crossovers between class tracks pushes me out to 9 feet on this one but I think I can live with that.

 

[dave1905]

If you make the righthand ladder a conventional ladder instead of the crossovers it will easier to work, more prototypical and probably give you more room.

 

[ctclibby]

Hi

If you use a doubleslip where the existing switch at 1' x 1' in what looks to be a XtrakCad drawing above, you will gain almost the length of the turnout it replaces in your classification tracks and main.

ctclibby

 

[Toyguy]

Well, major changes needed Good thing I tested it before gluing anything down! As it turns out, my one steamer will not negotiate a #4 turnout. Does just fine on a #6 though.

So I sat down to redraw the design with #6s and even tried #8s. The #8s were just way too long. The #6s push me out to 12 feet but as you'll see I gained the ability to stick some industry and a station in there so it's a good trade-off. While stumbling around in AnyRail I came up with this, which I rather like a lot.

Whatcha all think?

 

[ICG/SOU]

I like diamond yards because the tracks are all the same length. I'd personally flip it (so the lead is closer to the mainline, but that's just me, and aesthetics.

The ADM grain elevator you have there, what will you do to load/unload covered hoppers? The reason I ask is that I built a small stub end yard (a run around, a loading track, and a two track storage yard with a capacity of 6 cars). The prototype I've based mine on is limited from the space I have, as the prototype uses a balloon loop yard, so a southbound unit train pulls off the main and goes around a balloon loop (reversing direction) and runs through the unloading bay (delivers chicken feed to the elevator), and then the empty unit train is ready to go once the last car is unloaded. Since I couldn't do the same thing, I have the local drop off 3-6 cars at a time at the elevator storage yard, and an old switcher to unload the cars. The local returns and picks up empties and takes them to the interchange yard, where they go to parts north.