Why is the hobby in trouble?

[Gary B]

I think the problem with Internet forums are they start to recycle after a while. Another modeling (not RR) forum I'm on is having a similar discussion on the lack of activity. What color is this? What about this kit? How do I do this? People want to know, but for the average member they don't care or know the answer to the question. After a while it is no longer interesting reading. I enjoy this forum because it gives me a chance to see what others are doing and show off my own work. Most importantly, it's not all MR level work so I see not everyone else has super-human skills and bottomless budgets. I also will post if I feel I can be helpful to a poster or inject some of my lame humor! I also have posted a question or two to get an opinion or tap the group knowledge. That said, it's very apparent that there is a core group of posters and many lurkers and occassional posters. This seems to be normal for these forums. I think you'll find the vast percentage of posts are by a small percentage of users. So it's really hard to say how much impact it has on the hobby as a whole.
Just my 2cents.

 

[Selector]

There are advanced fora out there. This and most of the other popular ones that I go to daily are more like chat rooms where the topics are bound to be repetitive mostly because they welcome a lot of new people who have the same questions.

BTW, I don't accept the premise in the title of this thread. I would love to see incontrovertible evidence, empirical and verifiable evidence, that the hobby is on the rocks.

-Crandell

 

[blownoutcylinder]

There are advanced fora out there. This and most of the other popular ones that I go to daily are more like chat rooms where the topics are bound to be repetitive mostly because they welcome a lot of new people who have the same questions.

BTW, I don't accept the premise in the title of this thread. I would love to see incontrovertible evidence, empirical and verifiable evidence, that the hobby is on the rocks.

-Crandell

I sort of doubt that any evidence is going to sway anyone simply by dint of the optimist--pessimist cluster effect. Some would see it as half full others half empty. Me--I'd just see it as being what it is---

The problem is not just here--the problem is with the internet as well--many sites are now doing the social networking thing which is becoming a major draw for the hackers schemers scammers and spammers--

 

[Lester Perry]

All I know is I enjoy the hobby. I have done my part for about 30 years to keep it alive. A friend opened a train shop about 2 miles from me. He stocked up on several C&O Items knowing I model the C&O. I told him don't get stuff for me to buy as I have reached the point where I don't need much. I occasionally get an idea for a change which will need some minor purchases. I have one in progress now http://www.modelrailroadforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=17960I have spent $20 so far. That was for an ebay truck.http: I guess I am saying at this point in life , Its not an issue to me.

 

[diablo]

Seems most of us are older now days, thank heavens I already have what I need to have a great time. Things just aren't the same anymore, people, and times have changed, and I don't remember when it changed. I do know that space for a layout now days is really tough to come by. Lost my layout to a divorce, and now am faced with buying a enclosed trailer to build my layout in. Sad, but that's the way it is now days.

 

[trainmastr1]

Lost my layout to a divorce...

I know the feeling! I lost mine in similar circumstances. I had roughly 13k - 15k wrapped up in my collection. I can't even replace the track I had in my last layout for the price I had to let it go for. Now I'm retired, have a wonderful woman who likes trains, trackage rights to a basement in a ranch style home, and limited income..LOL! Go figure! But if there is a will, there's a way......time to re-build one tie at a time!

 

[Graham Line]

Weird, isn't it, how someone can be so threatened by, or so angry at, such a nerdy, innocuous hobby?

I've heard several similar stories of outright hostility toward collections -- didn't matter if they were valuable or not, Tyco or PFM Crowns.

 

[CharCad]

BTW, I don't accept the premise in the title of this thread. I would love to see incontrovertible evidence, empirical and verifiable evidence, that the hobby is on the rocks.

-Crandell

I agree with you. I don't see the hobby ending either. I think the situation is exactly the opposite.

Certain commercial and media interests became accustomed to taking super-sized profits from this hobby. These profits led to super-sized egos which caused them to confuse their self-interest with "what's good for the hobby". It's this group who are on the rocks, still imagining that they are the hobby. Overall mass consumer revenues are doubtless down. And that is entirely how that group defines "on the rocks" and the only thing that disturbs them.

The hobby may shrink in total numbers of modelers. Or it may grow overall considering the globalizing potential of the internet. But it will assuredly grow by several factors in the average quality of the models made and the skill of the hobbyist.

 

[Charles Smiley]

It's just a guess, but I think these, or similar, points are being made in most hobbies - not just MRR circles. I have several other hobbies that I'll never go back to. One is radio and antenna design. Another is roadracing. I'm not alone in this thinking either.

At least MRR still works for me and it's more affordable.

 

[stationmaster]

With the advent of video games and such, the hobby has taken a hit. Percentages show that the hobby, while still posting good numbers of participants, is down. When started in the hobby, "craft" hobbies, such as modeling were predominant. Seemed like EVERY town had a train running through it. Hence, the enticement to model trains. Not so any more.

Though some may argue that the value of today's dollar is equal to "back in the day", I disagree. There are more expenses that take away that dollar in today's life.

It also seems that manufacturers are dictating to the hobby what we will buy. As hobbyists, we've lost our market power. Quality of the new offerings just isn't there. They look nice, but, will those cars and engines we are buying today be around in 40,50,60, even 70 years from now? Doubtful.

Will the hobby survive? Probably. But, I doubt it will prosper. We would rather have big screen TV's than a layout in the family room. And kids today would rather wear out their thumbs using a video game controller than lay track.

Bob

 

[BIG-D]

just my 0.02$ being a teenager almost sixteen and no job the money i have is very very tight and with some big purchas in the near future car insurnce ect ect i just cant afford alot of the needed materials to get layout up and running its one of those if i could i would things and man i wish i could lol i think the hobbys in troubble because youth is the future and youth arent strapped in cash

 

[Beachbum]

With the advent of video games and such, the hobby has taken a hit. [...]

Agree. Seems like watching / modeling trains isn't "cool" anymore. Gone are the days when department stores had huge Lionel layouts running at Christmas to whet a kid's appetite. What family wants to take Amtrak when a plane can have you 2000 miles away in 4 hours for less money compared to 4 days on a train?

Or maybe safety concerns keep kids away from the prototype (and maybe rightfully so), unlike me who used to climb into pulpwood gondolas on the spur next to my grandparents' place and pick up taconite pellets and spikes off the CNW ROW. Nowadays I'd probably get arrested for trespassing.

Will the hobby survive? Probably. But, I doubt it will prosper. We would rather have big screen TV's than a layout in the family room. And kids today would rather wear out their thumbs using a video game controller than lay track.

Agree with that also. I tried to get my kids involved via everything from Brio to Lionel steamers to HO and none of them had any interest beyond about age 8.

I am told however that my 2 year old grandson is into Thomas the Tank Engine. Heh, heh, heh..

 

[CharCad]

Big D,

just my 0.02$ being a teenager almost sixteen and no job the money i have is very very tight and with some big purchas in the near future car insurnce ect ect i just cant afford alot of the needed materials to get layout up and running its one of those if i could i would things and man i wish i could lol i think the hobbys in troubble because youth is the future and youth arent strapped in cash

That's not that different than when I was your age in the very late 1960s and early 1970s. What I suggest you do is go to the Google Books web page. Then start surfing all the Popular Science and Popular Mechanics back issues from about 1900 forward to the mid-1950s. Both those magazines used to "do" model railroading. That was back when model railroading was called"the King of Workshop Hobbies".

Look at everything else in those issues, too. You'll discover a lot of "I didn't know that was how you could do that!" sort of information. The emphasis used to be on making everything possible yourself for very little. Don't be surprised if you come away wanting a Unimat lathe. Want to know how to roll your own Lionel style tinplate track? Its in there.

Unfortunately after World War II Kalmbach & Carstens Publications redefined model railroading into the "King of Hobbyshop Spending Hobbies". A lot of people tuned out when you said you had little money to spend. Including some who totally ignored your post and then proceeded to pontificate about the reasons for the dearth of young people coming into this hobby.

 

[jdetray]

Just an observation ...

I am involved in 4 workshop/technical hobbies, or as I think of them, "hands-on hobbies":

• Model Railroading
• R/C Aircraft
• Amateur Astronomy
• Ham Radio

In all 4 of these hobbies, the refrain is the same: "This hobby is in trouble. Where are the youngsters?"

Do I have a solution? No. But model railroading is by no means unique in this regard.

- Jeff

 

[malletman]

I have to, due to bugetary constraints, make many of my own items for my layout, depend on older items that are cheaper to purchase than new. The thrill of the hunt for old kits, be it rolling stock, buildings ect is half of my fun in the hobby. I dig thru old Model Railroaders and RMC's from the early 60's thru the early 70's to find ideas and items I want to find. While my motive power is all brass, its older imports from Tenshodo, PFM and Alco models. I think in the near future we will see some big changes in the hobby and maybe a turn backwards toward kits and cheaper items. Mostly brought on by the huge price increases we are seeing for the RTR and new items. The latest new preorder sheets from Athearn have a 30-50% price increase over the last release of the same item. This can only go on for so long before modelers start to speak with their wallets by less and less orders. The hobby always has been what you make of it. If you have deep pockets, you can have the latest and greatest, usualy the most expensive route. If your on a tight budget like myself and many others struggling in this tough job market, I make due with older items. I dont need sound, I hear the sounds in my imagination and they are never to loud! By not needing sound, I dont need DCC on my small layout I am building. I run everything with a brand new but old MRC control Master V throttle I bought for under $30. The high prices of new trains are a huge turn off for parents looking for hobbies for thier children. When your competing with computers and video games, which are already expensive by nature, you are already at a disadvantage. With set prices for the better model trains creeping up and up, parents just wont spend the money. Granted back when many of us were kids and Lionel owned the toy train world they were also quite expensive. My dad's set was around $50 in 1949, that was a full weeks pay for my grandfather who had a good job with GM back then. For now we just have to hang on, try to keep kids and other newcomers to the hobby from getting turn off and burnt out by the high prices, hobby shops that dont seem to care about customer service ect. Keep things positive, on my last portable layout that I took to train shows, I built it totaly old school with vintage Marklin trains from the 60's thru the 70's in vintage. It was a total hit at shows with many modelers loving the retro look and feel with no electronics beyond the basic transformer to run the trains, no sound, no dcc ect. Tinplate track, vintage kits for almost every building, even vintage vehicles. Yes it took time and patience to track down all the items for my layout, but that again was half the fun, scouring tables of used trains at shows to find that one or two items. Mike and Michele T

 

[kbkchooch]

Guys, it's not that bleak!

There are a lot of other hobbies in worse shape than ours. We recently had to close out my parents house. My Mom was into Ceramics. I can't begine to tell you how much trouble we had just giving away all her stuff! 2 kilns, 78 molds, paints, brushes, glazes, tools and other paraphenalia associated with the hobby. Sr. Centers, schools, adult day care places,,,,,,NONE of them wanted any of it even as a donation! Even Ebay was of NO help! Thank goodness Mom's dementia has progressed to a point where she hardly remembers having any of it. The only thing left is a bunch of greenware (unfired pieces) that my sons are going to use as targets for thier pellet guns!
If you want to lament a dying hobby,,, theres one for ya!

As far as the hobbies current health, true, prices are on the increase. But so is everything else including the price of crude oil. The same crude that a lot of the plastics we use today come from. The manufacturers are not making a killing on this stuff by any means.

So why are they making special items, limited runs and just about every variant of the F-unit that ever existed? Cuz YOU all asked for it. Maybe not you personally by name, but as a hobby group, yup, we did it. Simple economics, supply and demand, follow what the market wants and they will beat a path to your door. All the lamenting about the evils of RTR is our own fault. IF we would have left the BB kits alone and didn't superdetail them, then maybe they wouldn't have seen the demand for detailed cars, ready right from the box.

So what do we do about it? Blame this manufacturer or that? Blame the Chinese or the oil companies? Whine about the demise of the 2 dollar freight car kit, which was crude by todays standards.In 1960 was only 2 bucks, gas was .28 a gallon. Today, that same gallon cost @2.53 (what I paid today per gal) so that 2 dollar car should cost you (round numbers) 9 times as much as it did in 1960 = $18.00 for a blue box flatcar. Would you pay that today??? I don't think so. Pick your time period. I got my license in 1977, gas was .58 pr gal, the bluebox kits were about 4 bucks then. It all works the same.

DC vs DCC. I hate to tell the DCC bashers out there, but if you want to give todays kid half a chance at being a model railroader, don't bore them. They will be playing a Nintendo DS before your can explain a myriad of block switches to them. Give em bells and whistles in an easy format, and you might stand half a chance with them. From the age of 7, my youngest has been showing me tricks with my DCC that I didn't know about. It was at about that age that he taught me how to Tivo.

Our best chance to save the hobby? Expose kids to it. Talk to them and find what they like about it, then focus on that with them. When were doing a public club show, we will occasionally stop the "scale trains" and break out Thomas and friends. Not only do all the kids immediately pay attention, but so do the parents.

It's not that bad. We just need to be steadfast stewards of the hobby, and learn that it is going to have its ups and downs. The market will take care of overpriced items for the most part. Supplier issues will come and go. But this attitude of "the sky is falling" is nothing more than equine excrement and if unchecked, will sink us all.

 

[julienjj]

Just an observation ...

I am involved in 4 workshop/technical hobbies, or as I think of them, "hands-on hobbies":

• Model Railroading
• R/C Aircraft
• Amateur Astronomy
• Ham Radio

In all 4 of these hobbies, the refrain is the same: "This hobby is in trouble. Where are the youngsters?"

Do I have a solution? No. But model railroading is by no means unique in this regard.

- Jeff

Im HEEEEEEEERRRRRREEEE

Im involved in these hobby : trains (of course !) r/c planes&boats , amateur astronomy and sailling. And im only 18 !

Im playing a lot of computer, but, having a railroading video game cannot replace in any way playing with the real thing.

 

[Espeefan]

Guys, it's not that bleak!

There are a lot of other hobbies in worse shape than ours.
<snip>
As far as the hobbies current health, true, prices are on the increase. But so is everything else including the price of crude oil. The same crude that a lot of the plastics we use today come from. The manufacturers are not making a killing on this stuff by any means.

So why are they making special items, limited runs and just about every variant of the F-unit that ever existed? Cuz YOU all asked for it.
<snip>

Supplier issues will come and go. But this attitude of "the sky is falling" is nothing more than equine excrement and if unchecked, will sink us all.

I had been watching this thread for awhile, and was finally getting ready to shoot my face off, as I have on two other threads where the evils of RTR were being espoused. Now I don't have to. Bravo Karl. Well said.

Beesides, nobody said you can't take those RTR cars and keep going with them. You have the option of running them out of the box, or finishing them up and "making them your own" so to speak.

 

[CharCad]

Guys, it's not that bleak!
So why are they making special items, limited runs and just about every variant of the F-unit that ever existed? Cuz YOU all asked for it.

That's one reason. Another reason is the cost of plastic die injection tooling has fallen by about 90% in the last decade. Not too long ago these dies were made by life-trained tool & die makers Those old boys sat at pantographs and very slowly played etch-a-sketch with tiny carbide bits in blocks of hardened tool steel.

Now you have a 21 y/o with a 2 year associates degree in CNC programming, techno music in the background and his girlfriend(s) in IM boxes in the screen corners of his oversize monitor. He makes slight changes to the CAD drawing and ZIP!, runs off another die set in the CNC mill. Aluminum dies work fine for shorter production runs, and these synchronize nicely with the shrinking hobby demographics.

The question becomes how to aim a young model railroader's limited money for best life advantage to him. Perhaps its better that he too learn CAD and CAM on his personal computer? Then he can use these skills to make model parts for himself via CNC on small Sherline lathes and Taig mills.

This is assuredly not what Atlas, Athearn, Walthers and their marketing channels want to hear. Or any of 200 smaller operations. Or Kalmbach & Carstens, which take large amounts of ad dollars from all of them.

About 2 years ago the New York Times mentioned the phrase "hacker" first appeared in the 1950s among the model electricians at M.I.T.'s student model railroad. And that this term was subsequently adopted by those who hardware and software hacked the entire PC revolution.

When "model railroading" is again associated with learning science, technology and manufacturing arts then the kids will be back.

Guys, it's not that bleak!

Our best chance to save the hobby? Expose kids to it. Talk to them and find what they like about it, then focus on that with them. When were doing a public club show, we will occasionally stop the "scale trains" and break out Thomas and friends. Not only do all the kids immediately pay attention, but so do the parents.

We're in the season of "Free Trade" and its deindustrializing discontents. What passes for American leadership is now having deep doubts about the entire Made In China outsourcing shtick. Changing this around is going to require extensive work force training (and retraining). Model railroading can become part of the future solution or it can remain part of the current problem.

 

[TWaters]

Real life engines racing along by are not the splendiferous sight they once were.
For tens of thousands of years the fastest way to travel was horse and buggy or ship at sea. Way back in high school I was astonished to read that the majority of folks living from the dawn of history up untill the railroad age who resided near the middle of their county, never crossed the county line their entire lives. It took to long to get there. Unless they joined the army or merchant marines.

What a difference when railroads came in. Travel across the US in half a week instead of a year at incredible speeds. In the 1910's the railroad station was still the best show in smaller towns. What could compete with the show that monster steam express trains put on? The RR telegraph was the fastest source for learning the news, no cinema newsreels, no radio, no internet. Only daily newspapers for competition.

But today model railroads are modeling an industry that is not cool. Not anymore does it have anything to do with biggest, baddest, fastest, loudest, etc.