Where to Put Signals?

[LakeErieExpress05]

I'm modeling a CSX ex Erie line in Northern Ohio or there abouts Circa mid-1990's. I'm wondering where I should put my signals and what type of signals would be prototypical for where I am modeling. Below is the track plan for the module I am currently working on. Any info is much appreciated.

 

[D&J RailRoad]

The first thing ya need to keep in mind about signals is that they represent conditions ahead, i.e. turnouts, stations, control blocks. In addition to that, the signals need to be positioned so it gives the train crew sufficient time to respond to the signaled condition, i.e. slowing down or speed changes. Third, the signals need to be easily seen by the train crew, i.e. consider the background.
Are your signals going to be manually controlled or automatic, i.e. block control on DCC?
How many aspects are you going to use, i.e. red, yellow, green or just red, green or just single on/off target?
Also, keep in mind, for turnouts, ya want to provide signals in all directions of the turnout. The same with block control. For a single block and three aspect signal system, you will need six signals, three in each direction from the point of entering the protected block.
I'm sure some other folks can add to this.

 

[John P]

If the double track has bidirectional traffic, you'd have signals for westbound trains on both tracks where they converge. Otherwise, my guess is that there'd be a signal for just the right-hand main and a dwarf on the other track for reverse movements. For entry to the double track eastbound, you'd have a 3-head signal which would show Restricting for a train entering the wrong-way track, and Slow Clear or Medium Clear depending on what type of switch was used to enter the eastbound main. If it's a main line, they'd want to use a switch that wouldn't delay traffic much. I don't think any signals would apply to the spur; if there was work to do there, the dispatcher would just set all signals to red and authorize a local crew to unlock the turnout.

I can't help with what kind of signals CSX would have inherited from Conrail and Erie. Searchlights, most likely.

Actually having said that, I went and looked up Conrail on Wikipedia, and it says CSX "took control in August 1998". Does that match your plan for the era you want to model?

 

[CbarM]

Here is where the signals should be placed and what you need for this location. This is going based on what CP uses, but I would venture to guess most railroads would have to use the same kinda setup. The caboose track does not need a signal since it is not mainline track, but on the CP you would need a rule 564 form permission from the RTC to access that track and come back out on the main, unless the 564 was cancelled and a rule 577 was granted permission from the RTC again. Hope this helps some!

 

[otiscnj]

I grew up with the EL (DL&W) running behind my house in NJ. About 3 houses west, there was a signal. From what I've seen and remember, the EL had a lot of 2 headed, 2 light configurations, often times with one position blanked out. I'm not as knowledgeable about the old Erie, or the old Erie in Ohio. The old signals where I used to live, were replaced I'd say some time in the last 10 years or so, and are now 'call on', 'G' type signals. By 'call on,' I mean that they are dark, except when a train is within the block. During the EL, the lamps were lit all the time.

According to my copy of Morning Sun's book, EL in Color;The West End, looks like the EL by 74 had put in searchlight signals. Some photos taken in 68 show semiphores. There is a photo of a train by the Marion station in 74, under the signal bridge-it has 2, 'D' type 3 light signals. One photo by Mansfield has a single back searchlight. Area by Ohio City had semiphores(as did Marion in 1968). You might check with the EL Historical Society, if the line used to be Erie/EL.

Also, keep in mind that in the EL days, a lot of towers had a red and amber light on an apendage from the tower, for train orders. I know the EL had TCS (version of CTC), but not sure if some of the line was also dark, except for junctions and interchanges, and operated more or less completely by train order.

 

[clifwst]

signals

The way CbarM placed the signals matches the way CSX has installed their new signals on the old L&N mainline sidings between Louisville and Nashville. The sidings are signaled for bi-directional usage, and was resignaled in 2009.

 

[LakeErieExpress05]

Thanks for the help guys, its much appreciated. Now that I know what goes where, I'm trying to find the prototypical type of signal needed. I think the signals (minus the dwarf light) should be a triple head searchlight signal below. Can anyone confirm this?

 

[trailrider]

You should try to find the signal rules for railroads. IIRC, there are published (probably on-line) rules for the Santa Fe and the Canadian railroads, both for older eras and more modern (1990's).

The railroads generally followed a format where the red signal is on the bottom or lower signal, with the green on top. If there is a yellow aspect, it is generally in the middle. In case you've never noticed, this is the opposite of automobile traffic lights, where the red is on the top! Don't know why that is, but perhaps so the red is closer to the train crew, since a lot of railroad signals are placed higher (on a signal bridge or just on a tall pole to the side of the track). Also, railroad signals can include multiple colors lighted at the same time, which indicate different situations. For example, plain red usually does mean "STOP". But it may also mean, "Stop, then proceed with caution to the next signal. If the next signal is also red, then the "stop" is absolute. But a green over red may, depending on the rule may mean "Slow, proceed at a speed no greater than ____ and be prepared to stop.

Interlocking signals can be really interesting. A yellow over red may mean proceed through the turnout at a speed not to exceed (say, 15 mph) on the diverging route. On my layout, signals are mainly used by me to indicate which way are clear for a train to run. If the turnout is against an oncoming train, then I have a red light only. If the train is okay to enter a turnout that might be against it otherwise, then the light will show green. If the train has a choice of two diverging routes, I may have a three-light signal, with the lights in a triangle. The lower light will either be off or red, and the side-by-side upper lamps will be green (or amber...depending on what is the most important route), and which lamp is lighted depends on the direction the train will take. If the signal is located across the room, so I can't tell which of the directionals is lit, I may use an amber light for one direction and green for the other, with the bottom red lighted all the time. I generally wire my signals directly to the track, with the turnout throw determining the lamp that is lit. When operating on DC, the lamps will change brightness according to the throttle setting. When I'm using DCC, the lamps will be at full brightness. Therefore, I use 14-16 volt incandescent lamps. LED's will also work, IF you have the proper resistors in series, but the LED's are subject to the polarity of the track. In some instances, where my turnouts don't have directional points (Atlas), I will use the Atlas Snap Relays, which are essentially "latching" DPDT switches, and can be wired to be actuated by the same power that throws the Atlas switch machines.

Green boards all the way!

 

[dave1905]

You should try to find the signal rules for railroads. IIRC, there are published (probably on-line) rules for the Santa Fe and the Canadian railroads, both for older eras and more modern (1990's).

I agree but the ATSF and Canadian rules will probably be different than the ex-Erie rules.

The railroads generally followed a format where the red signal is on the bottom or lower signal, with the green on top. If there is a yellow aspect, it is generally in the middle. In case you've never noticed, this is the opposite of automobile traffic lights, where the red is on the top!

That's where there are one head with three lights in it. For example the signal illustrated, with three searchlight signals, each head will display red, yellow and green and maybe lunar (a bluish white).

Don't know why that is, but perhaps so the red is closer to the train crew, since a lot of railroad signals are placed higher (on a signal bridge or just on a tall pole to the side of the track).

The first railroad signals were a lamp or ball that was hauled up a pole on a pulley. The ball or lamp at its highest position meant clear. Even today the term "high ball" means to GO. Since the light on top meant go, green goes on top.

Also, railroad signals can include multiple colors lighted at the same time, which indicate different situations. For example, plain red usually does mean "STOP". But it may also mean, "Stop, then proceed with caution to the next signal. If the next signal is also red, then the "stop" is absolute.

Here's were you have to read the rule book. On some roads a red light is stop. A red light with a number plate on the mast is stop and proceed. On other roads a red signal is stop and proceed and a signal with a red light and an "A" plate is a stop signal. A stop and proceed doesn't necessarily mean the next signal is stop, all it means is you have to be prepared to stop short of any obstruction until you get to the next signal.

But a green over red may, depending on the rule may mean "Slow, proceed at a speed no greater than ____ and be prepared to stop.

In every rule book I've ever read, Green over red is "clear", which means proceed at maximum speed. What you have descibed is usually called restricted speed is often a lunar signal.

Kinda why reading a rule book is important. I own a NORAC and PC rule book but no Erie ones.

 

[dave1905]

Here is where the signals should be placed and what you need for this location. This is going based on what CP uses, but I would venture to guess most railroads would have to use the same kinda setup. The caboose track does not need a signal since it is not mainline track, but on the CP you would need a rule 564 form permission from the RTC to access that track and come back out on the main, unless the 564 was cancelled and a rule 577 was granted permission from the RTC again. Hope this helps some!

I would doubt the signal on the top main to the signal main would be a triple head since the options for signals you would want to display would be more limited (Stop, approach, clear), while the signals coming from the single track to the double track would have more options (since there would be a slower speed associated with the diverging route).

On a modern railroad the signals from either double main track to the single main track would have one head and the signal from the single to double main would have two heads.

Normally 3 headed signals are associated with interlockings.

There are also differences between rules, some railroads used route signals and other railroads used speed signals. Route signals have "diverging" indications while speed signals have signals named for speeds (medium, slow, etc).
Canadian roads have to comply with different laws so their rules are different than US roads. Similar, but there are differences.

 

[CbarM]

3 headed (aspect) signals are normally associated with interlockings? Wow!! CP has an interlocking at every siding then! Good to know!

 

[Motley]

Take a look at the BLMA modern bridge signals. I have them on my mainline.

I also got the LogicRail infrared sensors. Love how they work.

 

[dave1905]

3 headed (aspect) signals are normally associated with interlockings? Wow!! CP has an interlocking at every siding then! Good to know!

In the US. The OP is modeling the Erie, not the CP.

 

[trailrider]

Yup. You can't tell the players without a scorecard! And, as I understand it, I believe the C&S subsidiary of the C.B.&Q., for many years did not use block signals at all! They relied strictly on train orders! (But then, again, I may be mistaken. I was mistaken once...on the 32nd of Septembruary! )

Seriously, it will probably take some digging to find the rulebook specific to your prototype road. That's why a lot of folks freelance.

 

[dave1905]

The problem many people have is that the rules tell you what the indications are and what they mean but not where they are used.

One way to answer the question is for th OP to do an image search for "erie railroad" photos and look for pictures with signals in them, assuming the old Erie signals still exist. The other way is to look for images of "CSX Ohio". The signals may have been replaced by CSX signals.

The irony of it is that the location the OP is trying to figure signals form might have 3 headed signals as CbarM suggested because what the OP proposed is NOT the end of a siding its where it goes from one to ttwo main tracks so that WOULD or COULD be an interlockingl.

The other thing one has to understand with signals is that for the most part they are decorative because most of the time model railroads don't have the space to put the right sequence of signals in place. For example on territories where the speeds are 60 mph or higher, its typical to have a 4 signal sequence; clear, advance approach, approach, stop. Each one of those signals would be a couple miles more or less apart, the sidings would be 8-10 miles apart. Even making them one train length apart if would be 3-4 train lengths between sidings or crossovers which is way more than most model railroads have room for. So most model railroads have to make compromises on the signals displayed.

Another question for the OP is what is beyond the location he has shown and what type of authority is being used. ABS has different signal placement than CTC. ABS Rule 251 will have different signals than ABS rule 261 or CTC. A lot of the eastern roads used manual block systems or tower systems too.

What does the OP want the signal to tell the trains? That's what signals should be displayed.

 

[John P]

Motley, I don't understand what your signals show there. It looks like two converging tracks, just like this guy modeling the Erie described, and yet the left one is "medium clear" and the right one is "clear". Surely that's not right.

The colors don't show well here, but this is double red on the right and yellow over green on the left:

Yellow over green is "approach medium". It says there's another signal ahead, which must be passed at a maximum speed of "medium".

 

[trailrider]

Looks to me like the right hand signal is saying, "Stop" (absolute) as the turnout is thrown for the train at the left. The modeller's signal may just tell him it is okay for the train to proceed through the turnout at medium speed. That's how I do it on my interlocking signals. Again, it's going to be pretty difficult to duplicate prototype practice in the little space available on most pikes. Someday, I may try to put in block occupancy detection in some places, but with only a folded dogbone around the edges and in the middle of a 14' x 14' room, my longest passenger trains have only 5 cars, and my unit coal trains about 6 - 8 40 ft cars. So, basically, my signals are for interlocking indications.

 

[dave1905]

Again, it's going to be pretty difficult to duplicate prototype practice in the little space available on most pikes. Someday, I may try to put in block occupancy detection in some places, but with only a folded dogbone around the edges and in the middle of a 14' x 14' room, my longest passenger trains have only 5 cars, and my unit coal trains about 6 - 8 40 ft cars. So, basically, my signals are for interlocking indications.

This is pretty typical from what I have seen, signal systems become more of switch or route indicators.

The big thing a prototype signal system does is provide advance warning of a condition that requires a train to reduce speed or stop. Since a prototype train needs miles to safely and smoothly stop "advance" is an important thing. On a model railroad a train stops much more quickly and "advance" is a matter of a few feet the signal system isn't as critical. I tell people using Track Warrants or DTC to pretend they have an ABS system. It doesn't really change how the trains move and gives the dispatchers a lot more options to issue warrants. For the model environment the actual ABS signals aren't really necessary since they really don't authorize movement, indicate routes and don't specifically indicate switch positions.

 

[Motley]

Motley, I don't understand what your signals show there. It looks like two converging tracks, just like this guy modeling the Erie described, and yet the left one is "medium clear" and the right one is "clear". Surely that's not right.

John,

There is a crossover there on the two mainlines. They are not converging into one track.

 

[John P]

Ah, that wasn't clear. In my picture it's obvious that only one train can get through the turnout at a time!

Signals on a model aren't important, as the operators can usually see a long way ahead of the trains, and stopping is almost instantaneous. If we have signals at all, they're for appearance, but then they should be in the right places and do the right things! If you visit model railroads, you often see signals that are lit up, but never change, regardless of what happens on the railroad.

Trouble is, we don't have much track between sidings/stations/junctions, so all our signals tend to be interlocking types, rather than just block signals.