Burlington Bob
Well-Known Member
By railfan:
Well, I for one, am not ready to chew my leg off!!DC is the bait. DCC is the trap.Gotcha!
When Will DCC become the standard?
- Thread starter lmackattack
- Start date
ModelRailroadForums.com is a free Model Railroad Discussion Forum and photo gallery. We cover all scales and sizes of model railroads. Online since 2002, it's one of the oldest and largest model railroad forums on the web. Whether you're a master model railroader or just getting started, you'll find something of interest here.
Its not more complicated, and it can be less expensive, DEPENDING on layout size, and number of operators the layout is designed for. For example, my layout is 23' x 17'. It was originally designed for 7 operators, meaning I was going to have to use multi-layer rotary switches. In costing out the price of just these, the cost was going to be over $3000. This was just for the rotaries! This didn't include the cost of the wire, throttles and power supplies either. Wiring in DC gets very complicated, and expensive esp. when you're wiring for more than 2 operators. My track and wiring is over 80% completed, (with all supplies for power and control bought). Plus, this is a nice side benefit, because of the number of throttle panels installed, I can support up to 14 operators, without any additional wiring!
I have to date spent maybe $150 for all the wire, $395 for the DCC system (on sale), $120 for the throttle panels, $35 for a power supply, and $150 for dividing the layout into power districts/auto reversers. Grand total so far $850.
I've spent about $750 total for enough decoders for 31 engines, including 1 sound unit. That still comes out to only $1600, which is just over half of what just the rotaries alone would have been.
Less hardware is required to wire the layout for DCC, not the other way around. Some layouts only need a bus system, two wires that the additional feeders come off of, and of course the feeder wire itself, which are needed in both systems. Some layouts can be wired just by connecting the DCC base unit to the track with 2 wires. A basic system, NCE or Digitrax among others, can be had for less than $150. Prices for DCC has come down to the point where it's almost on par with DC. Trust me, those rotaries are NOT any cheaper than they were when I priced this stuff out and made my decision to change.
Decoder prices have also come down tremendously. I can remember when a plain jane decoder was priced between $40-$60, and every decoder had to be hard-wired in. Not only do you have a choice to get engines now either DCC ready or DCC equipped, but the majority of installs consists of just plugging the decoder in. You can even buy them in bulk packs of 5 for about $12 bucks apiece.
Now I'm not trying to get you to change to DCC, I operated DC for almost 40 years, thru 7 layouts and it worked fine.
I agree, this maybe a problem, in the future, but only if the prices stay the same. I'm not saying they will drop, but that is more likely than prices rising greatly.
Actually there shouldn't be worries here either. Just about all the decoders today are dual-mode. This means that they will run on DC or DCC without changing anything. Also, although this may not be true for all DCC factory equipped locos, the last DCC equipped one that I obtained had a plug in the bag of parts that would have made the loco pure DC, just by replacing the decoder with the plug.
You're thinking too big. Think much much smaller. There are far more people buying starter sets and playing on the floor or a 4x8 sheet of plywood than building 23x17 room sized layouts. Those people still buy all the extras too - individual cars, buildings, snap track. It's their money that supports the manufacturers. The "Wal-Mart" level of consumers is a huge customer base. The hobby needs their money.
DCC is clearly better once the layout reaches a certain size. I don't wish to debate the merits of DCC, or what it takes to constitute a need for DCC over DC, but DC has an immense value to the hobby - even for people who don't personally intend to use it.
If all the existing DC equipment manufacturers converted to DCC, people would say, "Why is this so complicated? I just want my kid to play with trains!" and new companies would form producing DC systems.
It's cheap, simple, and it works. And the vast majority of people are looking for that.
I think we hear so much about DCC because it's a new product the marketers can sell. That kind of thing doesn't come along very often in such old hobbies, and they're really trying to get business rolling. Also, the people who are interested in DCC are more vocal. Who likes DC? People who run trains by themselves. Why don't we hear from them? Because they're running trains by themselves. Where do we communicate? On computers. Who's interested in computers? People who like DCC.
It's not that black and white, there's plenty of gray, but I wouldn't be surprised if those things play into it.
Here, Here. Points for the old guy, from another old guy.
My layout fill a roon aboy 24' x 16' and its been running flawlessly for years on DC. You comments about the expense is my main concern. I would rather put the bucks into other parts of the hobby. I do have one DCC equipped locomotive that I take with me if I am going to be going to a DCC equipped layout, but for my own raod, DC works just fine.
I'm right in there with you guys. Hobby bucks are getting a bit tight and I will put those dollars to use elsewhere in my layout. I too have nothing at all against DCC, but for me, I just don't need it.
Sure hate paying the extra for something I won't be using.
That was so well put. Too bad the bozos in government couldn't speak this clearly.
Another old guy will get on your case. I am not the least but intimidated by modern technology. My main background is in electronics, starting years ago with vacuum tube equipment right up to the modern day IC chips and equipment. I personally don't need DCC. I almost always operate alone, and mostly during the winter months as during the summer I indulge in one of my other hobbies, restoring classic cars. I'm not afraid of electronics at all. My favorite restoration, a '59 Impala has had an engine transplant now cporting a C06 Corvette engine, and I have no problem hooking it up to a laptop for tuning and diagnosics. Many of us just don't find a need for DCC. Why spend money on something we don't need.
Please post facts to support this because i am of the opposite opinion. I personally think that that the DC users are mostly silent and DCC users are vocal.
I'll second that!
Mike
DCC is not new, as its pushing 20 years now since its first release. Lenz first demonstrated their new product in the late '80's at the NMRA conventions. With in a couple of years, Lenz gave their digital communication standards to the NMRA, which became the Standards for Command Control. I believe the first commercial units not made by Lenz, started coming out in 1991 or 92.
Each technology, DC & DCC has its place, and I've never denied it. But you are trying to make it more complicated than it needs to be. While there are more small layouts out there than big ones, still wiring a small layout for multiple train ops is a lot easier with DCC, and costs just about the same. It also can involve just the 2 wires to the track as with your basic DC. (Bachmann's E-Z Command is one of if not the most basic of DCC systems, can be had for $50, or less, esp if you go with a used system.) Now while "2 wires to the tracks", has always been the most basic of wiring, it has also always been a good idea to have supplemental feeders to the tracks, whether its wired for DC or DCC, to prevent voltage drop due to bad rail joiner connections and such.
Check the older magazines from even as far back as the 40's and 50's. On their small layout build articles, most no bigger than 4x8's, MR, RMC, Model Trains, (and probably a few others time has forgot over the years,) always stressed adding more than one set of feeders to the tracks for electrical reliability. I don't think that attitude has changed since then.
Now, I'm not advocating that a modeler with a simple point to point or loop layout, who only runs one loco at a time and no more, needs DCC, I never said that. Its just as soon as the modeler decides he wants to run more than that one loco, or even to run 2 at the same time, the wiring starts down a more complicated route. Even if its just adding a kill switch to a section of track, its still more complicated than the original 2 wires to the track in DC. With DCC it doesn't have to be. That's all I'm saying.
PS. I have to agree with the others, this IS a very interesting discussion!
I don't either, but here are my experiences.
I've had many formal op sessions, if that's what you mean, in both DC and DCC. While I have enjoyed both "types" immensely, I have enjoyed the DCC sessions more, as I could watch the trains a heck of a lot more than watching control panels, to know which and when to throw electrical switches to avoid shorts and the seemingly inevitable, "Who's got my train????".
As I have said, I agree that DC will never be completely replaced on the market. But I do believe that pure DC equipment, will eventually become harder and harder to obtain.
I believe that in the last poll on this subject by MR, which was a couple of years ago, IIRC, DC was still in the majority. The reason being was that many of the DC layout's owners saw no reason to change, or viewed the change as too expensive, and too troublesome.
I don't believe that DCC is anywhere near being "the standard" yet. But I can see a day where it will be a majority. I believe that most people coming into the hobby sees what DCC can do, and wants it. But I also believe that day when it becomes a majority is still a long time off. Even longer to become a defacto standard.
Affiliate Disclosure: We may receive a commision from some of the links and ads shown on this website (Learn More Here)
Cjcrescent
Master Mechanic
Its not more complicated, and it can be less expensive, DEPENDING on layout size, and number of operators the layout is designed for. For example, my layout is 23' x 17'. It was originally designed for 7 operators, meaning I was going to have to use multi-layer rotary switches. In costing out the price of just these, the cost was going to be over $3000. This was just for the rotaries! This didn't include the cost of the wire, throttles and power supplies either. Wiring in DC gets very complicated, and expensive esp. when you're wiring for more than 2 operators. My track and wiring is over 80% completed, (with all supplies for power and control bought). Plus, this is a nice side benefit, because of the number of throttle panels installed, I can support up to 14 operators, without any additional wiring!
I have to date spent maybe $150 for all the wire, $395 for the DCC system (on sale), $120 for the throttle panels, $35 for a power supply, and $150 for dividing the layout into power districts/auto reversers. Grand total so far $850.
I've spent about $750 total for enough decoders for 31 engines, including 1 sound unit. That still comes out to only $1600, which is just over half of what just the rotaries alone would have been.
Less hardware is required to wire the layout for DCC, not the other way around. Some layouts only need a bus system, two wires that the additional feeders come off of, and of course the feeder wire itself, which are needed in both systems. Some layouts can be wired just by connecting the DCC base unit to the track with 2 wires. A basic system, NCE or Digitrax among others, can be had for less than $150. Prices for DCC has come down to the point where it's almost on par with DC. Trust me, those rotaries are NOT any cheaper than they were when I priced this stuff out and made my decision to change.
Decoder prices have also come down tremendously. I can remember when a plain jane decoder was priced between $40-$60, and every decoder had to be hard-wired in. Not only do you have a choice to get engines now either DCC ready or DCC equipped, but the majority of installs consists of just plugging the decoder in. You can even buy them in bulk packs of 5 for about $12 bucks apiece.
Now I'm not trying to get you to change to DCC, I operated DC for almost 40 years, thru 7 layouts and it worked fine.
montanan
Whiskey Merchant
I don't know if the hobby will ever change over completely to DCC because there will always be those folks who will want to get their kids a started train set, and the cost of DCC may scare them away. For the advanced modeler, I am seeing more and more locomotives that are available only with DCC. I just got an email promotion from Broadway limited that had some locomotives that could interest me, but everything is DCC only. I also get Walthers promotions in the mail and I am see more and more locomotives available DCC equipped, and not offered in DC. Being that I have decided not to change over to DCC, many of these locmotives coming out I can just scratch off the list. I am afraid that I am not going to put out the money for DCC, and I am sure that there are others that also feel the same way. I do have one locomotive, a brass NP Z-5 Yellowstone that I custom painted and have converted to DCC with sound. It is my "traveling locomotive" that I will take on trips if I know that I will be visiting friends that have DCC layouts, or clubs.
montanan
Whiskey Merchant
Cjcrescent
Master Mechanic
I agree, this maybe a problem, in the future, but only if the prices stay the same. I'm not saying they will drop, but that is more likely than prices rising greatly.
Actually there shouldn't be worries here either. Just about all the decoders today are dual-mode. This means that they will run on DC or DCC without changing anything. Also, although this may not be true for all DCC factory equipped locos, the last DCC equipped one that I obtained had a plug in the bag of parts that would have made the loco pure DC, just by replacing the decoder with the plug.
You're thinking too big. Think much much smaller. There are far more people buying starter sets and playing on the floor or a 4x8 sheet of plywood than building 23x17 room sized layouts. Those people still buy all the extras too - individual cars, buildings, snap track. It's their money that supports the manufacturers. The "Wal-Mart" level of consumers is a huge customer base. The hobby needs their money.
DCC is clearly better once the layout reaches a certain size. I don't wish to debate the merits of DCC, or what it takes to constitute a need for DCC over DC, but DC has an immense value to the hobby - even for people who don't personally intend to use it.
If all the existing DC equipment manufacturers converted to DCC, people would say, "Why is this so complicated? I just want my kid to play with trains!" and new companies would form producing DC systems.
It's cheap, simple, and it works. And the vast majority of people are looking for that.
I think we hear so much about DCC because it's a new product the marketers can sell. That kind of thing doesn't come along very often in such old hobbies, and they're really trying to get business rolling. Also, the people who are interested in DCC are more vocal. Who likes DC? People who run trains by themselves. Why don't we hear from them? Because they're running trains by themselves. Where do we communicate? On computers. Who's interested in computers? People who like DCC.
It's not that black and white, there's plenty of gray, but I wouldn't be surprised if those things play into it.
When I was 10 ... many, many years ago ... running DC became too complicated when I wanted to run more than one locomotive on my small layout. I had no guidance to wire a layout in blocks. I ended up dropping out of the hobby until I saw a DCC example at a show a few years ago.
montanan
Whiskey Merchant
Here, Here. Points for the old guy, from another old guy.
montanan
Whiskey Merchant
I'm right in there with you guys. Hobby bucks are getting a bit tight and I will put those dollars to use elsewhere in my layout. I too have nothing at all against DCC, but for me, I just don't need it.
montanan
Whiskey Merchant
Sure hate paying the extra for something I won't be using.
montanan
Whiskey Merchant
That was so well put. Too bad the bozos in government couldn't speak this clearly.
montanan
Whiskey Merchant
Another old guy will get on your case. I am not the least but intimidated by modern technology. My main background is in electronics, starting years ago with vacuum tube equipment right up to the modern day IC chips and equipment. I personally don't need DCC. I almost always operate alone, and mostly during the winter months as during the summer I indulge in one of my other hobbies, restoring classic cars. I'm not afraid of electronics at all. My favorite restoration, a '59 Impala has had an engine transplant now cporting a C06 Corvette engine, and I have no problem hooking it up to a laptop for tuning and diagnosics. Many of us just don't find a need for DCC. Why spend money on something we don't need.
IowaFarmBoy
Member
Please post facts to support this because i am of the opposite opinion.
I personally think that that the DC users are mostly silent and DCC users are vocal. Please post facts to support this because i am of the opposite opinion.
I'll second that!
railfan
junk collector
You know....I can understand requiring FACTS when bureaucrats are wasting taxpayers money...or some issue of equal gravity. When someone is simply giving their opinion on a hobby preference or perception.....it's pretty easy for me at least to simply accept his or her view at face value. To me it's more of a fun thing we all share and mostly agree on......that model trains are fun. When it gets to the level of requiring PROOF...on a matter of simple opinion......I'm not sure that's where most of us want to take this.....with all due respect.Please post facts to support this because i am of the opposite opinion.
Mike
Cjcrescent
Master Mechanic
DCC is not new, as its pushing 20 years now since its first release. Lenz first demonstrated their new product in the late '80's at the NMRA conventions. With in a couple of years, Lenz gave their digital communication standards to the NMRA, which became the Standards for Command Control. I believe the first commercial units not made by Lenz, started coming out in 1991 or 92.
Each technology, DC & DCC has its place, and I've never denied it. But you are trying to make it more complicated than it needs to be. While there are more small layouts out there than big ones, still wiring a small layout for multiple train ops is a lot easier with DCC, and costs just about the same. It also can involve just the 2 wires to the track as with your basic DC. (Bachmann's E-Z Command is one of if not the most basic of DCC systems, can be had for $50, or less, esp if you go with a used system.) Now while "2 wires to the tracks", has always been the most basic of wiring, it has also always been a good idea to have supplemental feeders to the tracks, whether its wired for DC or DCC, to prevent voltage drop due to bad rail joiner connections and such.
Check the older magazines from even as far back as the 40's and 50's. On their small layout build articles, most no bigger than 4x8's, MR, RMC, Model Trains, (and probably a few others time has forgot over the years,) always stressed adding more than one set of feeders to the tracks for electrical reliability. I don't think that attitude has changed since then.
Now, I'm not advocating that a modeler with a simple point to point or loop layout, who only runs one loco at a time and no more, needs DCC, I never said that. Its just as soon as the modeler decides he wants to run more than that one loco, or even to run 2 at the same time, the wiring starts down a more complicated route. Even if its just adding a kill switch to a section of track, its still more complicated than the original 2 wires to the track in DC. With DCC it doesn't have to be. That's all I'm saying.
PS. I have to agree with the others, this IS a very interesting discussion!
Cjcrescent
Master Mechanic
I don't either, but here are my experiences.
I've had many formal op sessions, if that's what you mean, in both DC and DCC. While I have enjoyed both "types" immensely, I have enjoyed the DCC sessions more, as I could watch the trains a heck of a lot more than watching control panels, to know which and when to throw electrical switches to avoid shorts and the seemingly inevitable, "Who's got my train????".
As I have said, I agree that DC will never be completely replaced on the market. But I do believe that pure DC equipment, will eventually become harder and harder to obtain.
Cjcrescent
Master Mechanic
Please post facts to support this because i am of the opposite opinion.
I believe that in the last poll on this subject by MR, which was a couple of years ago, IIRC, DC was still in the majority. The reason being was that many of the DC layout's owners saw no reason to change, or viewed the change as too expensive, and too troublesome.
I don't believe that DCC is anywhere near being "the standard" yet. But I can see a day where it will be a majority. I believe that most people coming into the hobby sees what DCC can do, and wants it. But I also believe that day when it becomes a majority is still a long time off. Even longer to become a defacto standard.
Affiliate Disclosure: We may receive a commision from some of the links and ads shown on this website (Learn More Here)