When Will DCC become the standard?

[Pete V]

DCC function will allow engines to run in straight DC. On the digitrax you simply set the Loco to "0".

I absolutely love DCC. It makes running trains a complex challenge that I couldn't get out of straight DC. Having two engines going in the opposite directions on the same track at different speeds makes planning paramount. Being able to have complex switching going on in a yard at the same time just seems to make it more realistic for me. So far I'm not using it to run turnouts since the cost per chip is daunting.

I thought I was bad having about 18 engines acquired over the last 20 years or so. I have converted about half of them and it would scramble my brain to have more than three running at once if I'm alone with the trains, and here in upstate New Hampshire, that's almost all of the time. But the three concurrently is a lot of fun.

I don't think DCC will ever become the only thing offered and I certainly hope that is not the case. The trains that kids run around the tree are the gateway drug for all of this and keeping that simple and fun is the most important thing in my mind. Growing up to discover an unaffordable hobby would be pretty discouraging. I can't afford lots of stuff like brass and I'm OK with that.

I do think that if you've never tried DCC, you should though. It's quite a kick.

 

[irocinblue89]

I envision a sort of central command station where you download "x" sound, lighting, or speed file for "z" loco and all the loco has in it is a very small generic PC board that receives the signal for the motor, lights, and speaker. All of the info is stored in the command station. If you don't want sound for "z" loco then you don't download it. Basically it would be a refined version of what we have now except for the command station storing the sounds and what not.

To take that even further all of your info (sound, lighting, speed, etc. settings could be created and stored on a flash drive and plugged into your throttle or command station so that it is fully transportable if you go to a friends layout or a club. HHHMMMMMM... Somebody date this. Who am I kidding, a system is probably already out there like this. Sigh.

 

[funnelfan]

I think DCC Ready is already the standard, but I doubt buyers will be totally happy buying factory installed decoders. Most factory installed decoders are cheaper versions of the aftermarket decoders, and I prefer to install the aftermarket decoders myself. Therefore I see MFG's offering both DCC ready and Sound Decoder Equipped locos for the foreseeable future.

 

[ChevelleSSguy]

Like it or not. There are a lot of old timers in the hobby that refuse to get with the times and upgrade to DCC. Whether they have a layout that is all on block systems and have an "its not broke, dont fix it" attitude. Or they just dont want to spend the money to upgrade. DCC will never be the actual standard of the hobby any more then it already is. Not that there is anything wrong with these things, whatever floats your boat. But I will say these guys are really short changing themselves on an entirely different expierence in of realism in the hobby that they are really missing out on.

 

[2002p51]

Like it or not. There are a lot of old timers in the hobby that refuse to get with the times and upgrade to DCC. Whether they have a layout that is all on block systems and have an "its not broke, dont fix it" attitude. Or they just dont want to spend the money to upgrade. DCC will never be the actual standard of the hobby any more then it already is. Not that there is anything wrong with these things, whatever floats your boat. But I will say these guys are really short changing themselves on an entirely different expierence in of realism in the hobby that they are really missing out on.

As one of those "old timers" some of you guys are so happy to speak for, let me say again that it's got nothing to do with refusing to get with the times. Heck, I carry a smart phone and love to use computers.

It's strickly a cost vs. benefit equation. I have a small layout that I run by myself, one train at a time. The expense of "upgrading" to DCC just isn't worth it. I'd still work with just one train at a time.

Okay, so there's the added realism of sound, big whoop. For the $300-400 entry fee plus an additional $100- 150 per locomotive, I've got more important things to spend my limited hobby budget on.

 

[bnsf971]

As one of those "old timers" some of you guys are so happy to speak for, let me say again that it's got nothing to do with refusing to get with the times. Heck, I carry a smart phone and love to use computers.

It's strickly a cost vs. benefit equation. I have a small layout that I run by myself, one train at a time. The expense of "upgrading" to DCC just isn't worth it. I'd still work with just one train at a time.

Okay, so there's the added realism of sound, big whoop. For the $300-400 entry fee plus an additional $100- 150 per locomotive, I've got more important things to spend my limited hobby budget on.

MOST factory-equipped DCC locomotives will run just fine on straight DC. They may take more voltage to get going, but they work as well as DC, especially on a "one engine at a time" layout. Many sound DCC locomotives will also work with most sounds on a DC layout, though you might have to buy a $50 or so black box to make many of the sound features work.
So, just because some people may be hanging with bloody claws onto DC, doesn't mean they have to not use sound engines. Just do some research before purchase, there are alternatives to DC out there. Even (gasp!) DC.
And I can still count on one finger the number of DC locomotives I own.

 

[Photogdad]

It would be nice to spend hundreds of dollars on a DCC system and hundreds more on a couple DCC locos. For us with smaller home layouts, while yes it would be nice to have, but DC works fine. In my opinion, there should be no standards, even when it comes to building the layout. I thought this was a fun hobby, not something that has standards for everything. Everyone is going to have their own preferance as to DC or DCC, but other modelers and the loco makers should not push everyone into DCC or nothing. Right now for a lot of people it is a cost thing. Buy 3 DC locos for the price of one DCC. No question there I will buy three. Lets just keep it as a option and not standard.

 

[Pete V]

Well, we could always switch gears here and ask how many people are still only using brass track? Or, maybe the engines with rubber bands? I still have two. Hell, I never was good enough to even wire block systems. DCC was a godsend for the incompetent.

 

[diburning]

Wiring blocks is still a good idea for DCC particularly if you have a large layout and operate with other people or have a club.

Wiring separate blocks allows other people to keep running in their section if you short out the section you're in. If the entire layout was wired together, then anyone shorting out will bring down the whole layout.

 

[Pete V]

I don't disagree with that at all, I was just saying that I didn't have to wire blocks to get more than one train to run on the tracks at a time using DCC. I have two sections to my planned layout. When they are joined the second portion will be in a different block.

 

[Espeefan]

DCC is already the standard. Next time you buy a good quality DC loco, pop the shell and look at the chassis. Chances are it's rigged for plug & play decoder installation, and has a place for a speaker. You might have to remove a piece of the chassis weight which is usually screwdriver work. There's your answer. All of the good stuff is being made with DCC in mind. There is some low end stuff out there that may not be DCC ready, but most models of any quality made these days are.

As for cost comparisons, I have seen a number of wrong ones here, particularly if we are talking about small home layouts. That $300-400.00 entry fee one poster referenced is more like $150.00. You also can't buy three DC locos for the price of one DCC loco, at least not if you're comparing fairly. There is usually a $100.00 diffrence in competitive offerings for DC versus DCC-sound versions of the same model. I know, because I usually buy DC versions and do my own aftermarket installs, as my budget permits.

For all you locomotive accumulators out there with 250+ locomotives, here's a question for you: How many do you run regularly? How many are shelf queens? Nobody converts everything at once. Having to mill frames is pretty rare, unless you're an N scaler or have a thing for early Kato diesels. The cost difference is not what is being claimed. The real issue is you'd rather buy locomotive after locomotive. C'mon...fess up. We all have more locomotives than we need or will ever use. You could divert a small portion of that budget and update your control system if you wanted to. One last thing: You have to include the costs of the wiring and switchgear for a DC block system along with the powerpack when comparing costs with DCC.

 

[Cjcrescent]

... You have to include the costs of the wiring and switchgear for a DC block system along with the powerpack when comparing costs with DCC.

Truer words were never spoken Alan! As a former DCer with a 12x20 layout earlier in life, I can attest that this most certainly is true.

On this layout, I was using Rotary switches to control my blocks. Since I wanted to support 3 operators, I had to use 3 wafer rotaries. These were compounded by the fact that I wasn't using common rail wiring. I had to use non-shorting wafers. These cost more at the time than did the shorting wafers. The layout was divided into 30 blocks.

Move forward 20 years. I had plans for a larger layout that would support more operators, 6. The RR would have had to be divided into almost 50 blocks, and when I was contemplating wiring the cost for the rotaries alone would have been in the neighborhood of $1500. This was just for the rotaries! Never mind what the wire itself for this thing would have cost.

Since the local club was going to Digitrax DCC, I bought an Empire Builder. The unit was $295 on sale. In the past 4 years, I went to a Chief. By wiring the layout with a bus, PM-42's as short protection and reversers, plus due to the number of UP-5's I can comfortably support 8 operators. This has cost me less than just the rotaries would have on my old layout. Also since I run mostly steam with some 1st generation diesels, I haven't needed any of the more costly decoders. I can use just 2 function decoders and the conversion cost is less than $20 a loco. Anytime I thought about adding an extra operator to my DCC layout, the only thing I needed to worry about was someone tripping over their tether cable. In DC I would have to buy rotary wafers for each rotary switch, and possibly a center shaft extension. Plus the layout would have to be shutdown while the extra wiring for each wafer was installed.

 

[zoegraf]

DCC is already the standard. Next time you buy a good quality DC loco, pop the shell and look at the chassis. Chances are it's rigged for plug & play decoder installation, and has a place for a speaker. You might have to remove a piece of the chassis weight which is usually screwdriver work. There's your answer. All of the good stuff is being made with DCC in mind. There is some low end stuff out there that may not be DCC ready, but most models of any quality made these days are.

As for cost comparisons, I have seen a number of wrong ones here, particularly if we are talking about small home layouts. That $300-400.00 entry fee one poster referenced is more like $150.00. You also can't buy three DC locos for the price of one DCC loco, at least not if you're comparing fairly. There is usually a $100.00 diffrence in competitive offerings for DC versus DCC-sound versions of the same model. I know, because I usually buy DC versions and do my own aftermarket installs, as my budget permits.

For all you locomotive accumulators out there with 250+ locomotives, here's a question for you: How many do you run regularly? How many are shelf queens? Nobody converts everything at once. Having to mill frames is pretty rare, unless you're an N scaler or have a thing for early Kato diesels. The cost difference is not what is being claimed. The real issue is you'd rather buy locomotive after locomotive. C'mon...fess up. We all have more locomotives than we need or will ever use. You could divert a small portion of that budget and update your control system if you wanted to. One last thing: You have to include the costs of the wiring and switchgear for a DC block system along with the powerpack when comparing costs with DCC.

I have 15 locos, 6 of them are brass that I adore, and I run them all. Only one of my brass locos came with Digitrax DCC/DC. It really ticks me off that the newer steam locos aren't even DCC ready. Out of all of my non-brass locos, I think only two are DCC ready. I also have a new brass caboose that says it has a DCC plug installed. The importer suggested that I put a light function decoder in I use the caboose on a DCC layout. Phew! All this new stuff to learn.
Considering that I have now problem putting out money for a new brass loco every 3 years or so, this going DCC doesn't sound that expensive after all.

 

[Pete V]

Phew! All this new stuff to learn.

***************
In actuality, I think that sums it all up. I'm 61 and was fortunate to have to learn computers when I was running the fire department. Most people I know, just a smidgen older than me did not really do it. They can answer mail and surf a bit but it's just too daunting. DC works. They're happy. They get to run trains! How Cool is that?

 

[Espeefan]

Only one of my brass locos came with Digitrax DCC/DC. It really ticks me off that the newer steam locos aren't even DCC ready.

Which new steam locos are you buying?

 

[NYW&B]

Back when on-line model railroad forums were THE new thing and DCC was equally new, there was a phenomenon I call the DCC Zealots who could be found on every site. They would insist that DCC was the ONLY way to go and that everyone who stuck with DC was in the wrong. Likewise, DCC did everything better than DC and would cure ALL your problems, no matter what they were...I kid you not! I see that some of these folks are still around!

The fact of the matter is that, according to Model Railroader magazine earlier this year, DCC usage among hobbyists is only now approaching 50%...after how many years?

Like it, or not, the majority of active hobbyists today are about 60 years of age, or older and do not welcome the challenge offered by conversion to DCC. At the same time at least 95% of all layouts are relatively small, single operator affairs, where running more than one train at a time under complete control on one track is difficult, dangerous, or impossible. The concept foisted by magazines like MR that the hobby is all about huge layouts with multi-operators is mainly myth and does not reflect the average hobbyist's approach to model railroading currently, or ever.

As such, except for those who have an excessive interest in the electronics/technical end of the hobby, DCC offers little or no major advantage over the use of DC. There is also a considerable learning curve and excessive expense to conversion from DC to DCC, again whether the zealots wish to acknowledge, or not.

I have had a 12x14 HO DC, single operator, point-to-point, layout for years. Although there are multiple trains on the layout at any given time, I run only one train at a time, in a manner replicating what would actually be done on the prototype branchline of this size.

I also operate regularly on a friend's DCC basement-filling empire, converted from DC to DCC by a supposed DCC guru several years ago.

I can say that in operating my home layout I don't encounter electrical problems more often than maybe once every couple of years. At my friend's layout we experience some sort of operation-halting glitch at nearly every session! The slightest derailment, or electrical quirk in the system, will knock out a whole district on the layout and cause everyone to go to standby with their road assignments while the source of the problem gets searched for.

The comment was made upstream that DCC is already standard because nearly all locomotives come DCC equipped, or DCC-ready. That, however, only signifies that this is financially advantageous for the manufacturer to use the same electrical board, not that they regard it as the industry standard. To make two totally different electrical systems would likely break the already strained manufacturing base and they know it.

Older guys like myself are perfectly happy with the way DC works and DCC offers us nothing but additional work, expense and potential headaches. And the fact remains that we still carry the hobby marketplace and will for probably the next decade, or so. Sorry, but complete DCC dominance will have to wait to see if there is a viable hobby left once we are gone.

NYW&B

 

[2002p51]

. . . DCC offers little or no major advantage over the use of DC.

. . . DCC offers us nothing but additional work, expense and potential headaches.

Amen brother, for all of us small layout operators, this is the truth!

 

[Pete V]

One of the changes besides DC vs DCC is actually in detail modeling as well. The cost of good kits has really gone way up and now pre-assembled freight cars seem to be the norm. This has really become a very expensive hobby. That's fine in itself but just because you are in to ultra realism in operations and presentation doesn't mean that someone who doesn't want that should be made to feel like a child of a lesser God.

I loved My DC when I started. I love my DCC now. I don't have ultra detailed cars because they're too expensive on one hand and on the other I like to make my own stuff from scratch. For some of us, it's the process, for some it's just happily running trains around the track with kids.

We all share in common a love for miniature trains. We can love them in different ways and still get along I hope. I see superiority issues come up all the time in my field of work and it never ends a conversation well.

 

[zoegraf]

Which new steam locos are you buying?

They're all not that new; just new to me.

Locos make by Boo Rim and Ajin. The oldest is the Ajin 2-8-2 made in 1997. The Boo Rim 2-8-0 was made in 2002, and the Boo RIm 4-6-2 in 2007. Also an old 0-8-0 Samhongsa made in the eighties.

 

[zoegraf]

Back when on-line model railroad forums were THE new thing and DCC was equally new, there was a phenomenon I call the DCC Zealots who could be found on every site. They would insist that DCC was the ONLY way to go and that everyone who stuck with DC was in the wrong. Likewise, DCC did everything better than DC and would cure ALL your problems, no matter what they were...I kid you not! I see that some of these folks are still around!

The fact of the matter is that, according to Model Railroader magazine earlier this year, DCC usage among hobbyists is only now approaching 50%...after how many years?

Like it, or not, the majority of active hobbyists today are about 60 years of age, or older and do not welcome the challenge offered by conversion to DCC. At the same time at least 95% of all layouts are relatively small, single operator affairs, where running more than one train at a time under complete control on one track is difficult, dangerous, or impossible. The concept foisted by magazines like MR that the hobby is all about huge layouts with multi-operators is mainly myth and does not reflect the average hobbyist's approach to model railroading currently, or ever.

As such, except for those who have an excessive interest in the electronics/technical end of the hobby, DCC offers little or no major advantage over the use of DC. There is also a considerable learning curve and excessive expense to conversion from DC to DCC, again whether the zealots wish to acknowledge, or not.

I have had a 12x14 HO DC, single operator, point-to-point, layout for years. Although there are multiple trains on the layout at any given time, I run only one train at a time, in a manner replicating what would actually be done on the prototype branchline of this size.

I also operate regularly on a friend's DCC basement-filling empire, converted from DC to DCC by a supposed DCC guru several years ago.

I can say that in operating my home layout I don't encounter electrical problems more often than maybe once every couple of years. At my friend's layout we experience some sort of operation-halting glitch at nearly every session! The slightest derailment, or electrical quirk in the system, will knock out a whole district on the layout and cause everyone to go to standby with their road assignments while the source of the problem gets searched for.

The comment was made upstream that DCC is already standard because nearly all locomotives come DCC equipped, or DCC-ready. That, however, only signifies that this is financially advantageous for the manufacturer to use the same electrical board, not that they regard it as the industry standard. To make two totally different electrical systems would likely break the already strained manufacturing base and they know it.

Older guys like myself are perfectly happy with the way DC works and DCC offers us nothing but additional work, expense and potential headaches. And the fact remains that we still carry the hobby marketplace and will for probably the next decade, or so. Sorry, but complete DCC dominance will have to wait to see if there is a viable hobby left once we are gone.

NYW&B

Interesting points.
I appreciate all this info everyone has.
I probably will only ever model a branch line in a space no more than 12 X 13 shelf style layout unless I win a lottery and if I did, it would likely be a much bigger branch line. So much to take into consideration.