Troy's Midnight Abbey Mythical RR 3rd Edition

[Renodemona]

RE: Orange groves,

Weirdly, looking for pictures of Disney Land under construction or especially the Disneyland Hotel in the early days, you can see all the huge groves around there from all the many arial shots. Good idea at least on tree spacing, farm equipment, storage, etc in general. Looking good so far!

 

[troyphoto]

As we've been discussing in the coffee shop threads, I need to get going on my layout again.

And I realized I should do the upper level first. At least get it going, track down, and a rough idea of where everything goes.

Problem is, I have no idea what goes up here.

My list of givens and druthers:
1. Exit off the helix on far right side (helix to be built later.)
2. track grade level.
3. this will be the "Conrail" Elkhart area. The lines coming out of Toledo OH and Fort Wayne IN should meet, along with an interchange to Detroit.
4. This will be "Proto-Fantasy" in it's layout. One or more of the interchanges might get dropped
5. Because the purpose of the layout is RAILFANNING and Photos, the track plan will have a loop for continuous running.
6. I'd like to model a hump yard to illustrate Elkhart Yard due to several uncles and greats working in the yard.
7. there will be a river scene. With a fuel stop and boat launch that another great uncle on the other side of the family owned.

Here's a look at most of what I've got on the S shaped layout: (I cleared the tools and junk off the upper deck, so now the lower deck is cluttered.)

And here's a very rough plan of what I might do. No switching is involved, yet.

However, I realized that if I just do a continuous loop, I'd have to park the trains, and run the engines around in the yard, if I want to nose-first back down the helix. So I added a wye right after the St. Joe river on the outer side of the loop to connect with the inbound interchange.

Nothing in that diagram is set in stone. It's just first thoughts.

And yes, I know the reach to the back of the curves is long. I'd planned to need a step stool to get back that far. I'll make sure the tracks are a standard 28" in along the back of the layout. It will be scenery that I'll need the step stool to complete.

Thoughts and input welcome.

 

[troyphoto]

Been doing some basic research on what served the areas I want to model on the upper deck.

Basically a main line (double for most of the way I want to model) from Goshen IN to Elkhart IN. This is an old NY Central line.
A branch line running from Elkhart up to White Pigeon MI (and then to K-zoo, which tied into the E-W line to Detroit

Growing up, I started living near the branch line. We then moved very close to the double/triple main between Goshen and Elkhart. If you remember the fiery Pinto crash on US 33 in "Dunlap" IN - the second home I lived in near the ML was about a mile from that location.

There is also a branch line coming out of the Elkhart Yard, heading down to Warsaw IN that ties into PennCentral's Fort Wayne IN to Chicago main.

And another spur line from the Robt Johnson Yard in Elkhart up over the St. Joe River, and ending in Mishawaka IN. But, I'm thinking of moving the bridge and river into the section with the branch line up to Michigan. A bit of selective rearranging. Maybe. Well see.

 

[bnsf971]

This may help give you some ideas--even ideas on how not to shoot video...:

 

[KB02]

Only three feet for a helix? That will limit you to 18"r curves. If you're cool with that, then rock on. If you can squeeze in another foot, though, you, and your rolling stock, might be happier.

 

[troyphoto]

Only three feet for a helix? That will limit you to 18"r curves. If you're cool with that, then rock on. If you can squeeze in another foot, though, you, and your rolling stock, might be happier.

N-scale... 18" radius curves are fine. That's what I'm using as main line curve radius.

Lower deck, where the climb up begins is 42+ inches deep. I've budgeted 46" on the floor plan for the helix.

Speaking of, I need a Math-geek to run the numbers for me.

I need to climb - rail head to rail head - 18.5 inches - 2" clearance between levels.
I assume 1/2" ply, or two layers of 1/4" tempered hardboard (may do the octagon arrangement instead of cutting curves)

How many turns, and what is the grade I'm looking at?

 

[bnsf971]

N-scale... 18" radius curves are fine. That's what I'm using as main line curve radius.

Lower deck, where the climb up begins is 42+ inches deep. I've budgeted 46" on the floor plan for the helix.

Speaking of, I need a Math-geek to run the numbers for me.

I need to climb - rail head to rail head - 18.5 inches - 2" clearance between levels.
I assume 1/2" ply, or two layers of 1/4" tempered hardboard (may do the octagon arrangement instead of cutting curves)

How many turns, and what is the grade I'm looking at?

This handy calculator may help:

Elevation Grade Calculator

Elevation grade calculator determines the grade or slope of a specific earthen area, given its "rise" and "run".

www.omnicalculator.com

 

[troyphoto]

This handy calculator may help:

Elevation Grade Calculator

Elevation grade calculator determines the grade or slope of a specific earthen area, given its "rise" and "run".

www.omnicalculator.com

That calculator doesn't make sense to me.
Looks like it's figuring roof pitch?

If I'm climbing a circle how does that translate?

Warning... I'm not good at math. And the other one: https://www.modelbuildings.org/helix-design-calculator/ is slightly less confusing, but I'm still baffled that I'm putting the numbers in correctly to make it end where I want it. EDIT: The ModelBuildings one appears to be down, and has been for several weeks.

Of course, being on Mac, to get 3rdPlannit software to do it automatically means a $99/hear subscription for Parallels. The Mac MRR design software designs pretty pictures, but doesn't do any of the figuring for me.

 

[KB02]

N-scale... 18" radius curves are fine. That's what I'm using as main line curve radius.

Right! N-Scale, I forgot. 3 feet will be fine.

Ran this up real quick in SCARM. Looks like 5 3/4 loops will get you up 18.5" at a 2.6% grade with 3" separating the tracks.
I used Atlas code 80 from the SCARM track library with a 19"r curves.

 

[ctclibby]

Troy: Maybe some more thought first? 2" separation between levels does not leave much 0-5-0 room. Right now you have 9.25 levels ( 18.5/2 ) with 18r curves - 113 inches per loop ( 2 * PI * 18 ) which makes for a 1.7% grade. ( 2 / 113 ). Total run top to bottom is 1045 inches ( 9.25 * 113 ). To me, if you could add 3 inches to the track radius: 21r you could change the loops needed to 18/3 or 6 with 2.2% grade and gain some extra 0-5-0 room. Don't know what you are planning for train length - 2.2% might be troublesome with longer trains.

L8r

 

[troyphoto]

Right! N-Scale, I forgot. 3 feet will be fine.

Ran this up real quick in SCARM. Looks like 5 3/4 loops will get you up 18.5" at a 2.6% grade with 3" separating the tracks.
I used Atlas code 80 from the SCARM track library with a 19"r curves.

Thank you sir

 

[ctclibby]

And I forgot: Since you are circular in nature - there is more friction going up which adds to the grade percentage. In other words, it is harder to get up the thing. If I remember the formula is something like Grade + 32/track radii. Think that Armstrong came up with that.

Also, if there is a way to put in a couple feet of tangent track, you can reduce you grade to make it easier for the train. Make an oval vs a circle.

L8r again

 

[RhB Michael]

Here is the effective grade calculator I used on my railroad:

Effective Grade Calculator

 

[Rico]

N-scale... 18" radius curves are fine. That's what I'm using as main line curve radius.

Lower deck, where the climb up begins is 42+ inches deep. I've budgeted 46" on the floor plan for the helix.

Speaking of, I need a Math-geek to run the numbers for me.

I need to climb - rail head to rail head - 18.5 inches - 2" clearance between levels.
I assume 1/2" ply, or two layers of 1/4" tempered hardboard (may do the octagon arrangement instead of cutting curves)

How many turns, and what is the grade I'm looking at?

If you budgeted for 46” then 44” or even 42” would work great.
As Todd mentioned two inches between rail heads minus the 1/2” base isn’t a lot of room.
And yes going with the octagon shape is easier to make and wastes less material, that’s I how I went with my last one.

 

[logandsawman]

Troy: Maybe some more thought first? 2" separation between levels does not leave much 0-5-0 room. Right now you have 9.25 levels ( 18.5/2 ) with 18r curves - 113 inches per loop ( 2 * PI * 18 ) which makes for a 1.7% grade. ( 2 / 113 ). Total run top to bottom is 1045 inches ( 9.25 * 113 ). To me, if you could add 3 inches to the track radius: 21r you could change the loops needed to 18/3 or 6 with 2.2% grade and gain some extra 0-5-0 room. Don't know what you are planning for train length - 2.2% might be troublesome with longer trains.

L8r

Troy,

I built a HO scale hump yard and identified one red flag on your draft plan. The track leading in is on a curve.

I used a magnet uncoupler and there needs to be a flatter section over the uncoupler and a grade below that sufficient to get the cars rolling, prior to the first switch.

Having the curve in there will require a steeper pitch, and probably accentuate any slight differences in rate of travel the individual rolling stock will attain.

Easy solution, place the hump yard adjacent to straight section of track. I made several hump yard videos, the latest one has the best advice.

Dave LASM

 

[Old 97]

Great work Troy!!!

 

[troyphoto]

And, I just realized a potential breakthrough on design of the upper level. I was concentrating the mainline from Toledo to Elkhart. That may be better for the lower level, and treat the upper as an offshoot branch line (Elkhart to White Pigeon and then Kalamazoo Mich. Since I'm looking at Conrail in the 70s/80s I can end at the Staggers act right before Conrail started to tell off or close smaller lines like the White Pigeon line (Now serviced by Grand Elk?)

 

[troyphoto]

Update as of April 21, 2025

Made another run to Lowes for another 4x8 sheet of 1" green foam.
2x2 ft Project Panels are about 10 dollars each. a 4x8 Sheet of 1" foam (same stuff) is 30.90 after IN sales tax. That's 8 project panels worth, at less than half the cost.

The problem is I don't have a vehicle capable of hauling 4x8 sheets of .... unless...

That's 2 sheets of 4x8ft x 1in foam for $60 for the upper level purchased in a week (only 1 sheet in the trunk photo). I purchased the drywall T-square (4ft) for $10 when I got another sheet for the lower level of the layout. So if we factor that in, 3 sheets + t-square - $100ish. That's the same cost as 10 project panels. But I ended up with the same square foot of foam board as 24 project panels ($240 value). I'd call that T-square a good investment.

So, this morning, I worked on expanding the right most baseboard. I needed to get it out to 36 inch so I'd have room for a return loop. this is the end with the eventual helix, which will be 42"-ish wide, so it's not an issue other than reach in. And I'll have access from inside the helix loop for anything on the very back where the helix exit will be...

Above, the 12-inch extension. I opted for KISS and just made a 12in x 6ft extension for the upper deck on that side.

Here's the view from underneath once the extension is in place:

And a view of the Right U part of the S shaped layout:

the Helix will eventually go where the treadmill is on the right.

And, the foam I purchased this morning was just enough to complete the upper level.

While I noodle on the track plan, I need to dig a tunnel through the backdrop for the back side of the loop... Then figure out how much overhang on the front of this section I want to add. An addition 5 inch on the bullnose will make it even with the lower level. If I leave it as is, it will only be 9in from the front of the backdrop curve.

Hmmm...

 

[troyphoto]

Tossing these in the thread as I research the two lines coming into Elkhart that I want to model

One Leg of that is a connection between the Robert Johnson Yard in Elkhart IN up to the Michigan Air Line route that NYC operated between Detroit and Niles Michigan. That connector, running NE out of Elkhart up into Michigan ran behind my early boyhood home.

More here: https://www.michiganrailroads.com/s...ivision-for-high-speed-freight-service-1950-s

And a recap from the AI overlord at Google:

 

[troyphoto]

More thoughts on potential designs of the upper level:

Since I'm in the Proto-fantasy (beyond the proto-freelance idea), I have to keep telling myself I don't have to stick with what really was served by Conrail or Locals out of the Elkhart yard.

And, having grown up around Elkhart may be a hinderance for what I actually want to do here: is the elkhart yard (the Robert Johnson Yard) better off being the "hidden staging" that is never modelled? Hmmm...

Looking at the map of current rail lines in NE Indiana that lead into or nearby Elkhart, we get this:

The yellow areas are what I'd normally drive from my current home in Fort Wayne (lower right) via the yellow path to my hometown of Goshen/Elkhart. I used to work for the Goshen News, and drove the Bristol > Elkhart > Goshen > Ligonier corridor as part of my coverage zone. Do I remember the buildings and industries? No. But I remember the flavor.

I'm now trying to find industries that could be modelled in those corridors. Selmer Brass in Elkhart, Bristol Pipe. Ag business in White Pigeon MI, etc.

What about old and well abandoned lines? Like the Pumpkinvine Railroad? Can I work some mythical business in?

Goshen, IN to Findley, MI - Abandoned Rails

History and map of an abandoned railway line between Goshen, IN and Findley, MI.

www.abandonedrails.com

Should I tackle the upper deck of the layout as a "What-if" proto-freelance line that didn't exist, or wasn't abandoned like the Pumpkin vine was? Fantasy, I know... Put track where none existed, invent industries to serve (the fantasy) put incorporate real towns.

Here's a map of what I could do:

If I want to monkey with my timelines, I could add in a fledgling Steel Dynamics plant in Fort Wayne (they founded in 1993, but I want to stick with late 1970s to early 1980s).

Hmmm... a lot to think about. What would Conrail have taken over in the 70s/80s that didn't really exist, but is still modelled on reality?