The Ultimate Swicthing Yard

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Bad order cars - when a train come into a yard, there will sometimes be an inspection of the cars in the train, to make sure everything (e.g. brakes) is working the way it is supposed to. If a car is found to be needing repairs, it will be "bad ordered" (i.e. marked for repairs before it can continue). A bad ordered car has to be removed from the train and set out until it has been repaired.

Smile,
Stein
 
Nic --

Great description of your yard and how it is operated !

I hope you won't mind some followup questions.

One question is about tracks 11 and 12 (the coal train adds).

Where do these cars come from?

I can see that one source of west bound empties (on track 12) being coal cars that have been unloaded at the Heskit Power plant, and brought back by job 201 and spotted on track 12.

But the eastbound loaded coal adds on track 11 - where do they come from? Are they former bad ordered cars that have been repaired, and then gets spotted by the night shift's job 303 on track 11 to help replace any loaded coal cars in eastbound trains that gets bad ordered the following day, so the east bound coal trains can deliver the right number of cars to the customer?

If so, I guess there also will be some repaired empties among the empty coal adds on track 12.

I notice the use of the word "striped" (as in "east striped" and "west striped"). New word in this context for me - does it mean anything more than eastbound and westbound?

Also, I am curious about traffic amounts and traffic patterns - in a 24 hour period, how many coal trains will typically stop to get refueled and inspected?

How many H (mixed freight) trains will pass through, and how many will set out cars for local industries or pick up cars from local industries?

I hope I am not asking about anything you are not allowed to talk about.

Smile,
Stein

Most of the adds in 11 and 12 track are repaired empty cars that were set out, they were switched out by the night job and put in there specific tracks, the loads that were pulled out are put to a track with mixed cars like 10 track and are usually not mixed in with adds for the empties, as for the "stripe", the stripe on a coal car indicates which end the rotary coupler is on so it is put back in the proper place in the train. Most or all modern coal cars even ones with air dump doors have a rotary coupler on one end. So a west bound empty train is set up in this order, Usually they have about two engines in the front, followed by half the train or so with cars which have the rotary coupler in the west end, followed by a double rotary which has rotary couplers on both ends, followed by cars with rotary couplers on the east end followed by the DP (Distributed Power Unit) pushing on the end, Or sometimes they have three units in front and no DP.

Empty Heskit coal cars when brought back are put to either 5 or 6 track because they leave the yard on the local which goes north on the Zap line. They are on a closed pool and only go to Dakota West Morlan Mine in Beulah and then brought back to Mandan when loaded, The coal cars that Heskit uses are all Bethlehem 4000 cubic foot three bay hoppers, they are old BN, and I think the mine owns them.

As for traffic, it all depends on a lot of factors, sometimes we get only one or two trains due to MOW windows, other times we get a lot more, the Laural to Northtown (Laural Montana to North Town Minnesota) H train comes by very regularly, and the cars they set out are usually cars to be spotted in Bismarck, Tesoro Refinery and cars that go north to Beulah on the Beulah turn. Cars that come from the local (Beulah turn) or cars pulled by the refinery or the 101 will get switched out by the afternoon switch and will leave the yard on an H train that night. If the yard is low on coal adds, sometimes H trains will bring a few in.

Decker power plant coal car, one of the most common here in Mandan
http://www.google.com/imgres?hl=en&...nw=211&start=0&ndsp=8&ved=1t:429,r:5,s:0,i:79

Double Rotary coal car, notice it has stripes on both ends
http://www.google.com/imgres?hl=en&...w=158&start=0&ndsp=10&ved=1t:429,r:8,s:0,i:88

Heskit Coal car, note even though these cars have a stripe, the power plant uses the doors and so these cars are not arranged in any particular order.
http://www.google.com/imgres?start=...ndsp=14&ved=1t:429,r:5,s:113,i:76&tx=82&ty=60
 
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Interesting.

So where do the longer coal trains that go through the yard (except for fueling, crew changes and setout of bad ordered cars/addition of repaired cars) come from - the Powder River Basin ?

Smile,
Stein
 


<Grin> - you got me there!

Feel free to substitute "in American English" for "in American" and "British English" for "British". Or "in America", if you prefer that.

English is a foreign language for me, and I sometimes make mistakes. My most typical mistake is mixing up "is" and "are", since we use the same word for "is/are" in my language, but I am sure there also are plenty of other mistakes.

Also, we are taught British English in school, so whatever American English spelling and usage I have learned has been picked up in passing.

Anyways - at least my English (either kind) is better than my German :-)

Grin,
Stein

:D
I think you do fine...The only German I know is: ich bin Auslander und sprechen nicht gut Deutsch...and I hope I got that correct! :D

Back to the trains and the education I get from threads like this!
 
[

Doct0rnic - wow, thank you, great write up and sketch. I assume I should have the yard graded with the main line higher and the Wrecker spur at the lowest grade, or is it a left to right grade? I have to admit, much of the operations you detailed eludes me, and some of Stein's questions elude me as well. I think it will be a while before I can catch up on all the terminology or even grasp a basic understanding. But I have printed the page out and will studying it and try to follow along. In the meanwhile, what is a bad order car or load? Thanks again.[/QUOTE]

yes, The main line is the highest point of the yard, the west end is the steepest of the grades while the car shack and round house is more level, THe east coal yard lead is not quite as steep as the west end but still allows cars to roll at a decent speed, the middle of the yard ,concentrated around 8 track, the grade tends to slope in the middle like a bowl, There is also three industries I forgot to mention three other industries west of the yard, East of the interlocking on the east end of the yard is Strata, they have three spur tracks and own a small fleet of old coal cars, during the spring and summer seasons, they haul in gravel in their cars for roads and cement, East of Strata is Cenex, who also in the spring and summer,switch crews will spot Asphalt tanks and pull the empties, South of Cenex is Welk steel, which every once in a while will take a flat car with some beams.
 
Interesting.

So where do the longer coal trains that go through the yard (except for fueling, crew changes and setout of bad ordered cars/addition of repaired cars) come from - the Powder River Basin ?

Smile,
Stein

Yes the coal mainly comes from Wyoming, There are at least a dozen power plants who's trains come through Mandan, there is also several BNSF trains that go to smaller plants, A couple trains go north on the zap and unload on Glenharold ND, the others will head to places like Superior, Because coal trains are Unit trains, they have to undergo a 3000 mile inspection, so All coal trains that arrive in Mandan will undergo inspection, the trains that usually stop just for a crew change and leave are usually the hot shot trains, and trains that have been rerouted like stack trains, Grain trains will sometimes be inspected depending on how many miles it has traveled but usually will just fuel up and go. A train will also undergo inspection if the wheels or any kind of defect that tripped the detector when the train passed it while entering yard limits.
 
<Grin> - you got me there!

...Also, we are taught British English in school, so whatever American English spelling and usage I have learned has been picked up in passing...


Grin,
Stein

Don't worry about the language "barrier" Stein! George Bernard Shaw once said that the English, and the Americans are the same people separated by a common Language!

American english and British english have just enough differences to make it very difficult to understand each other at times!
 
Don't worry about the language "barrier" Stein! George Bernard Shaw once said that the English, and the Americans are the same people separated by a common Language!

American english and British english have just enough differences to make it very difficult to understand each other at times!

<Grin> I have always thought that "two nations divided by a common language" was a clever way of putting it :-)

We have a similar situation over here in Scandinavia - three of the five North Germanic languages spoken in this region (Norwegian, Swedish and Danish) are so similar that they generally are mutually understandable, if you speak slowly and clearly, despite the occasional misunderstandings due to a few differences in spelling, pronunciation and vocabulary.

E.g. in Swedish "rar" means "sweet" or "cute", while in Norwegian it means "weird". Can cause some misunderstandings when boy meets girl (or boy meets boy, or girl meets girl) - it may make a difference whether the other person finds you weird or cute :-)

Anyways - to get back to the subject at hand - designing a good yard for GearBox.

Mandan yard is a good illustration of how a prototype (real railroad) yard often can be pretty different from a model railroad yard, because there are some significant differences between the real railroad and the model.

The most obvious (and important) is size. Mandan is over a yard long. In N scale, a mile (5280 feet) is 5280/160 = 33 feet long.

Also, our reach is about 24" - stuff more than 24" from the aisle is hard to reach - in a pinch we can reach about 30" into a layout - but it often leads to stuff being closer to the front edge (the fascia) being knocked over or crushed.

Reach and view tends to put a limit on yard depth - how many tracks we put in side by side, and whether we put buildings between the fascia and track - access and view tends to get harder if we have to reach in across buildings with breakable details to get at things on the layout.

Also, since our mainlines tend to be short relative to the length of the yard, and traffic thus tends to arrive at shorter intervals than in real life (at least in a layout run by several operators), it often is more important on a model railroad to not use the main as a switching lead. (Mandan has a switching lead on the east end, but seemingly not on the west end).

So there are some typical designs floating around, based on the premise that you want these things in an efficient small classification yard which has to keep up with traffic on a model railroad:

- Dedicated switching lead (so you can switch without interfering with main)
- Some double ended tracks (for flexibility), some single ended (for capacity)
- Ladder coming out towards the aisle, so you see the clearance points
- Main behind yard (to avoid snagging passing trains with sleeves)
- Engine service tucked in under switching lead (to keep scene less deep)

I.e. something like this:
stereotypical-yard.jpg


Referring to the labels on the drawing, the salient points are:

Between points A and B: two Arrival/Departure tracks between points A and B - allows trains to arrive or depart without interfering with ongoing switching.

Incidentally, such tracks do not have to be double ended - you can also e.g. use two single ended tracks, where one track functions as an engine escape track for the other track when traffic is low, and engines just get trapped until the yard switcher can remove their cars (as on David Popp's Waterbury yard):

single-ended-ad.jpg


In this case, a train arriving from the left on the main on the main will have to go past the yard to the right and then back into the yard, while a train heading out towards the left will have to back out onto the main to the right before going left on the main.

Trains arriving from the right on the main will go into the tracks head first. If there is only one train on the A/D (Arrival/Departure) tracks, the newly arrived train from the right cuts off it's engine, pulls forward (to the left) on the A/D track, throw the switches/turnouts and then uses the second A/D track as an escape path for the engine.

Or one can do something like on Woodsriver Yard on Paul Dolkos' old layout - having the yard be on a peninsula, with access via a wye, so train always will back into the A/D tracks, no matter what direction they came from:

woodriver2.jpg


One can also use a double slip in a yard to compress things - like where the second A/D track branches off from the first:
double-slip.jpg


Going back to the first sketch - the point labelled as C is the yard switching lead. The switching lead should have access both to the yard body tracks (labelled E in the sketch) and the A/D tracks (between points A and B), and it should be long enough for the switcher to pull out all the cars in one track while switching.

One trick for making the switching lead longer is to connect the far end of the switching lead back to the main - so that if you have to pull a really long cut of cars, you can use the main as part of the switching lead, but to handle normal cuts, you won't have to go out on the main.

Having the switching lead connect back to the main also gives you the option (if both arrival/departure tracks are full) of taking an arriving train in from the main via the switching lead, and putting it directly into one of the body tracks (E), or having a train depart directly from one of the body tracks.

Using the switching lead and yard ladder for an arriving or departing train obviously means that you will have to stop switching while a train is moving in or out of the body tracks. So your switcher will have to duck into some track to get out of the way while this is happening. But it likely will be a not very frequent happening, given that you have dedicated A/D tracks.

Another game one can play with the yard ladder is that one can increase the length of the body tracks (and thus yard capacity) by using a compound ladder (a tree-like structure, where each branch branches further out):

compound_ladder2.jpg


Compound ladders are not so popular on real railroads (although they exist there too), since compound ladders has a tendency to mean that people will have to walk back and forth across the tracks to throw switches, increasing the odds of someone being run over. With a straight ladder, you can stay on one side of the track while throwing switches.

A lot of design practices and rules on real railroads are "written in blood". When a model railroad car goes down the wrong track or derails, not much happens. When things happen on a 1:1 scale railroad, someone may have to go face someone else's spouse and kids to deliver the worst message in their lives.

But getting back to model railroads. The track labelled G (parallel to the yard ladder) can be used as a runaround, to get the switcher engine on the opposite side of a couple of cars, e.g. if you want to put a caboose at end of a train, and it provides a convenient place to attach various service tracks (labelled H in the sketch) - like ready tracks for engines, a caboose track, a RIP (Repair in Place) track, and places to deliver freight to the yard itself - sand, diesel/coal (depending on era), new wheels, taking out scrap or whatever.

This is a typical "good practice" model railroad layout yard. It is pretty efficient, and gives a lot of options.

What it doesn't necessarily have a lot of is character. It is a pretty generic design.

If you look at Mandan, you will notice that Mandan has several interesting features - like the single ended no 9 track, or the "crooked main" track, the wheel spur, the short yard track and so on and so forth. The yard also is not optimized for lots of switching - instead various tracks are used e.g. for storage of various kinds of cars.

So one can have quite a bit of fun with introducing features which are based on a real prototype somewhere.

Also, a yard does not necessarily have to be an efficient sorting machine. A yard can be any area where you have several tracks and where switching is going on so speeds have to be kept down so you can stop short of anything getting in your way.

Yards comes in many sizes and shapes. The easiest type to model is the small auxiliary yard - an industry yard of some kind - which essentially is not a place to engine service, crew changes, repairs etc, but just a small knot of tracks where a few cars might be dropped off to be picked up later by another train, or where a crew can sort their cars into some order which looks sensible in terms of delivering those cars.

Here is e.g. a pretty nice looking yard (heavily inspired by a design by Robert Beaty) - which e.g. could be the yard of a small short line somewhere:

multipurpose.jpg


There are so many ways of designing yards for model railroads that it seems fairly meaningless to talk about "the ultimate" yard.

But I hope this post at least threw up some ideas. You can find more in the books I recommended - they are pretty good.

Smile,
Stein
 
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Those are good drawings Stein, I like the first one the best because it has the most potential to be very efficient when switching. A good switch crew will be able to bust out a list and not once shove a car in the track, which is why I would add an electric uncoupler and a slight grade for the car to roll good, a kick is where the foreman tells the engineer to kick, the engineer revs up to 8 throttle and then the foreman pulls the pin, tells the engineer to stop and the car sails by. here is a link to a good video that shows a switch crew bust out a list with kicking cars.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zEWE3df6Q2s&feature=related
 
a kick is where the foreman tells the engineer to kick, the engineer revs up to 8 throttle and then the foreman pulls the pin, tells the engineer to stop and the car sails by.

I've never seen anyone kick multiple successive cars into one track successfully in N scale (as the original poster is planning) -- or HO for that matter. Have you done this yourself? How do you kick the cars hard enough to roll clear of the fouling point without slamming into the previously switched cars?

As to the original purpose of this post, I wonder if this really would be a satisfying layout concept. N scale equipment is so finely detailed today that it will probably not take the abuse of people slamming it around trying to switch the cars faster than the "opponent".

As Stein correctly notes, most people find more interest by trying to duplicate the way the prototype works -- which is thoughtful and only as fast as is safe for men and equipment.

Best of luck.
 
A good switch crew will be able to bust out a list and not once shove a car in the track, which is why I would add an electric uncoupler and a slight grade for the car to roll good, a kick is where the foreman tells the engineer to kick, the engineer revs up to 8 throttle and then the foreman pulls the pin, tells the engineer to stop and the car sails by.

Gravity switching is fun. My brother works in the tower of a hump yard here in Norway: http://binged.it/HlPwVF - tower is in the red building at center left, arrival/departure tracks 1-5 at top of image, container (intermodal) terminal at right, hump at center of image and retarders for bowl tracks at lower end of image - scroll image to see more. They don't do kicking on flat ground, though.

Smile,
Stein
 
I've never seen anyone kick multiple successive cars into one track successfully in N scale (as the original poster is planning) -- or HO for that matter. Have you done this yourself? How do you kick the cars hard enough to roll clear of the fouling point without slamming into the previously switched cars?

As to the original purpose of this post, I wonder if this really would be a satisfying layout concept. N scale equipment is so finely detailed today that it will probably not take the abuse of people slamming it around trying to switch the cars faster than the "opponent".

As Stein correctly notes, most people find more interest by trying to duplicate the way the prototype works -- which is thoughtful and only as fast as is safe for men and equipment.

Best of luck.

The idea of kicking is to slam into the other car so the pin drops and the car is secure other wise you have to tie a brake on the unsecure car. The switch crews kick cars to save time and not saw the switches. Indications that a kick is too hard is if the joint does not make or if the trucks springs pop out. I kick cars all the time at work, and I have seen them done in HO. I have seen old heads in the yard pull the pin on a string of 20 tanks. To me, an ultimate yard would be able to operate like a real rail road and kicking cars is a major part of prototypical operation.
 
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To me, an ultimate yard would be able to operate like a real rail road and kicking cars is a major part of prototypical operation

Yes, I know exactly what kicking cars on the prototype entails and I understand that it's a key characteristic of the real thing.

Unfortunately, the physics just aren't the same in N or HO and the real thing -- from overall mass to no brakes to wheels to couplers and more. If it's not kicking a single car on one siding, experience shows that we model railroaders must typically shove the cars down the yard tracks.

But if you personally get it working consistently in N scale in yard tracks as the Original Poster is talking about (or even HO), post a video and show us how it's done.
 
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I kick cars all the time at work, and I have seen them done in HO.

I don't think anyone doubt that you can kick 1:1 scale railroad cars.

But what Byron was asking was whether you have ever made an N scale model railroad layout where this actually worked?

Model railroad cars are fairly different from the physics of real cars, in terms of momentum and friction. Their volume is 1/(160x160x160) = about one four millionth of the volume of a 1:1 scale car, the model is made of plastic instead of steel, and the bearings is a pointed metal axle tip rubbing against plastic trucks rather than roller bearings.

Edit: Oops - I see that I wrote more or less the same as Byron - we must have started replying at about the same time - he from California and me from Norway :-)

Smile,
Stein
 
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