The Ultimate Swicthing Yard

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Gearbox

New Member
Now that I have you attention :D, I am looking for suggestions. What comprises the ultimate swicthing yard? I have had an idea of developing a game of sorts for model railroading for the past 30 years, and now with DCC it becomes very possible. Basically it entails having two yards, controlled by two or more players, connected with a stretch of track with customer sidings. Object is simple, assemble the required cars in the yard and deliver them. There is much more to it, but I don't want to bore you. My first objevctive is to design a yard with sufficient sidings and space for a switcher to move rolling stock, assemble the cars, and allow the main line loco to deliever the cars. Needless to say, who ever finishes first, or who ever moves the most within a pre determined time wins. I was never much in watching trains go round and round, so I figure this would give it added interest. I figure I could use an N scale layout, but not sure yet if the DCC technology is there yet with all the turnouts and engines I want to power. But I figure I can squeeze in much more in layout. So, can anyone suggest the best layout for this yard, or perhaps drawings of real yards to emulate? Pictures and drawings would be the best, but types and lengths of the yard and areas to side and assemble the rolling stock, etc. Assume I know nothing and you will be close lol. Thanks for your input.
 
Room size is 30' x 22', so optimal table size may be 25' x 6'. I was thinking of having a double main line circle the enitre room with some elevation changes as the entrance to the room is a staircase. I'll draw up a rough picture and post it.
 
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Any room between the stairs and the wall? If there is you could run a track around and under the stairs giving you a longer run. I take it you are leaving a gap between the layout and the wall for access?
 
David Barrow had a series of articles in MR a few years ago about an industrial railroad he'd built in his crew lounge. It was similar to what you describe, two yards, each worked by its own crew with transfers between the yards. As far as the ultimate, I think that is Bailey in North Platte.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/69648269@N00/297409584/
 
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Any room between the stairs and the wall? If there is you could run a track around and under the stairs giving you a longer run. I take it you are leaving a gap between the layout and the wall for access?

The room is my attic, and yes, there is about 12" between the stairs and wall. There is a 4 ft high wall surrounding the stairs on both sides. While the ceiling is about 12 ft high, it slopes down to the floor over the layout table so I was going to build the table 2.5 ft high and either have an elevation change up over the stairs, or just cut holes in the stair walls for a pass through. I will be remodeling the attic, so anything goes.

If you want a game to see who can do some not very realistic switching fastest (and in little space), two well known games already exist - the "Timesaver" and the "Inglenook".

You can find a description of both games here: http://www.wymann.info/ShuntingPuzzl...g-puzzles.html

"Shunting" is the British term for what is called "switching" (not "swichting") in American.

LOL, I did mention I new very little about railroading and fell into laziness without auto spelling correction :D Shunting to me was when I crashed my race car into another car, which was no doubt a British dirived term as most of our racing started in the UK. But it does make sense, the cars are crashing together in one form or another. But thank you for the correction. The game is pretty interesting, but is more a puzzle than what I'm looking for, albeit it does have elements I can use. I was going for something more realistic, or as realistic as I can squeeze into my layout. As I had mentioned, it was only part of the grand scheme. My problem again is that I do not know enough about railroading, so do not know how to layout a realistic yard with space to optimally classify cars, assemble a load, and have a mainline engine pick up the train and deliver it. Not to bore you, but my goal was to make it interesting and competitive. My railroading knowledge was limited to that book, Atlas Strugged, and how the Tagart Empire competed with rival railroads for customers and lines. So my game was somewhat a simplistic version of that struggle, line up all the tank cars, ore cars, freight cars, gondolas, and deliver them to the refinery, ore mines, mills, and factories. Then picked them up, bring it back to the yard, and sort the loaded cars for customer delivery. Each player is given the same customers and the same load requirements and has to get to them first or lose the customer. To add a bit of stress and challenge, the freight train has to use the mainline to deliver the goods to the customer sidings located throughout the layout. The mainline is a double loop with two passenger trains going in opposite directions that are on a schedule. So you have to time your mainline usage to avoid the passenger train, as the passenger train cannot be stopped nor diverted. First one to complete the session with the most "correct" customer deliveries wins. You crash into the passenger train, you automatically lose. So, is there a "optimal yard layout" available somewhere I can look at and copy?

David Barrow had a series of articles in MR a few years ago about an industrial railroad he'd built in his crew lounge. I was similar to what you describe, two yards, each worked by its own crew with transfers between the yards. As far as the ultimate, I think that is Bailey in North Platte.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/69648269@N00/297409584/

Now that's what I am talking about, maybe I will have a shot in N scale lol. But do they have remote decoupling tracks in N scale?
 
for me to make the ultimate yard, the only important thing I would make sure the yard has is an electric uncoupler under the main switching lead so you can kick cars and the lead has to have a slight grade so the car rolls good, Any prototypical switch yards the crews are kicking cars as much as possible, I think modeling the Mandan yard where I work at would be a good model.
 
"Atlas Shrugged" has very little (if anything) to do with realistic railroading. It was written by a person who knew very little about railroads.

Railroads are not trucking companies, where the different companies compete *directly* for the same jobs, picking up the loads at the same shipper and delivering it to the same recipient, driving on the same roads to deliver, trying to drive faster than their competitor.

Instead, companies who ship or receive freight directly by rail is mostly captive customers - they usually only have one railroad serving their plant.

And it is not at all given that the same railroad company will deliver the load to the recipient. Instead cars are passed along from railroad company to railroad company, each company taking it further in the direction of the recipient, with each company getting their share of the fee the shipper paid to ship the freight.

Also, you don't use railroads because they can race very fast 35 miles down the road to deliver your freight. You use them because then can deliver huge volumes of freight at low ton-mile costs. Railroads are not about speed - they are about low costs (and hopefully - about consistency - delivering a given number of RR cars to your industry every week, for month after month after month).

The whole idea about having the equivalent of UPS and DHL drivers race each other to make the fastest deliveries to a factory has very little to do with realistic railroading.

Which is not to say that you cannot run your trains in whichever way you want on your layout. Of course you can do whatever you want - it is your layout.

As for the "ultimate yard" - it sounds like an fairly meaningless concept. A yard that supports it's intended purpose is good enough. But what functions a yard need is dependent on expected traffic, number of blocks you need to build, how much storage capacity you need and lots of other things. Yards are built to order - there is no single "ultimate" yard design.

If you want some general tips on modeling freight yards, Andy Sperandeo of Model Railroader Magazine has a nice little book called "Model Railroaders Guide to Freight Yards". You can find it e.g. at amazon: http://www.amazon.com/Model-Railroaders-Guide-Freight-Railroader/dp/0890245762

There is also the "10 commandments of yard design" - a set of suggestions by Craig Bisgeier - which are not to be taken as holy write and always followed in every detail - but they introduce many concepts: http://www.housatonicrr.com/yard_des.html

And of course - there is John Armstrong's "Track planning for realistic operations" - also known as the bible for layout planners. Can also be found at e.g. Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/Track-Planning-Realistic-Operation-Railroader/dp/0890242275

But as I said before - your layout. You can do things any which way you like. If you want to race trains and just dodge collisions (and call that "realism"), you are free to do so.

Smile,
Stein
 
Holy smokes StienJr, who got your shorts in a bunch this morning? It's obvious you had misread my post as the only time I used "realistic" was in the layout of the yard. All I wanted to know was there a methodology or philosphy to build a yard so I can do the operations I am looking to do, which is sorting and "shunting" cars. As for the "game", it's only a game, and the only reason I explained it was to give you a better idea of what I wanted from the yard. This was not the object of the discussion nor was I saying this was how the real world works. Plus I had predicated multiple times that I have no railroading experience nor knowledge and was asking for the help of the forum. After all, aren't these forums intended for novices like me to gleen from the experience of people like yourself? I read your post several times, and I have to say, I was taken a back from your tone and sarcasim which was totally unwarranted. If I treaded on some holy grail of yours, I apologize, that was not my intention, and I do thank you for the lead on the books.
 


for me to make the ultimate yard, the only important thing I would make sure the yard has is an electric uncoupler under the main switching lead so you can kick cars and the lead has to have a slight grade so the car rolls good, Any prototypical switch yards the crews are kicking cars as much as possible, I think modeling the Mandan yard where I work at would be a good model.

Thank you doc0rnic, first directly usable sugesstion so far. I get it, decouple the cars at the front of the yard, and let gravity roll the cars through the switches to its final intended sidings. This is brillant, thank you, Allan PS is there a track plan on the Madan yard I could get a copy of?
 
Gearbox, I suggest you try to get hold of a copy oe Windows 3.1 and the a copy of "Freight Train" ny Abracadata" where the objecy is to deliver a st of cars and get from one end of the shortline with your consist switching cars in and out of spurs as you go.
Oh, and by the way as you would have known if you'd been on the forum a little longer, Stein - who you just had a go at - is a very knowledgeable layout designer, who knows what he is talking about - he was advising a "newbie", rather than being sarcastic and belittling your ideas. If you are planning to stay and post on here, I'd advise you to be a little more careful about upsetting long-term members in case they decide that you are one of those unwelcome hairy things that live under bridges and shouldn't be fed.
 
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Now, now, guys - I probably was a little too rough with the OP. I tend to be pretty direct. My apologies for stepping on Gearbox's toes.

GB asked about "Madan" yard (or rather Mandan Yard, where doct0rnic works).

Great tools for finding prototype inspiration is google for general searching and various map/image sites like bing.com/maps or maps.google.com

If I go to http://www.google.com and enter Mandan yard, I get directed to a place in Mandan, ND. Which tallies with doct0rnic listing his home location as North Dakota.

Going to http://www.bing.com/maps and searching for Mandan, ND, I find the place, but the overhead pics is a bit unclear.

Trying with http://maps.google.com, I get this: http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Mandan,+ND&hl=en&ll=46.824716,-100.895138&spn=0.002679,0.004823&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=50.37814,79.013672&t=h&hnear=Mandan,+Morton,+North+Dakota&z=18

Looking at the overhead pics, looks like a pyramid shaped yard, with a track at the east end that could be used as a switching lead.

Maybe a car repair facility or some such thing at the south end. A turntable is still there, despite the roundhouse being gone.

I would guess that coal traffic probably is a large part of what goes through Mandan yard - at least there seems to be a lot of open hoppers around in the overhead pictures. Only relatively few boxcars (and some center-beam cars for wood products).

Smile,
Stein
 
Yes i agree about stein

He is the man with alot of knowledge. When we or you ask questions, stein gets right on point with a good answer and a true answer.
it does seem hes coming off slightly harsh but thats just stein hes like the principal of model railroading :) he keeps you inline with the truth and the facts.

I dont feel stein was calling you out and trying to be harsh in the wrong way...

If i have a question, id rather stein or whoever be straight with me and tell me like it is so i understand and realize that they have more experience then i, so like a student i listen :)
Stein means no harm hes a very nice guy even though i havent met him in person im sure hes harmless ;)

Sorry if i offended anyone or made it seem like i called someone out, i appoligize.

Now lets get back on point of model railroading
 
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If you want a game to see who can do some not very realistic switching fastest (and in little space), two well known games already exist - the "Timesaver" and the "Inglenook".

You can find a description of both games here: http://www.wymann.info/ShuntingPuzzles/shunting-puzzles.html

"Shunting" is the British term for what is called "switching" (not "swichting") in American.

Smile,
Stein

Do you mean 'in America'? As we speak English in America, not American. :D
 
Mandan Yard

The only picture I can find of Mandan yard is Google earth, so I drew up a rough sketch of how the yard works and if you choose to model it you can piece the areas together from the aerial photo and the drawing.

The main line has to be about a mile and half long, East bound coal loads arrive into the yard on the main line and 1 track and are refueled and serviced at the east pumps( the pump on the picture I drew are yellow boxes) West bound coal empties arrive on 2 track and 3 track and are refueled and serviced at the west pumps, during the time engines are serviced carman blue flag the tracks and run inspections on the coal trains. The Crooked main is where Amtrak used to stop, now the east switch is removed and its used for extra storage, the station is still there but own by a private entity. When an H train (mixed freight train) arrives in the yard, they almost all the time are directed to arrive on 5 track or 6 track, When the H train arrives, usually he has to set out cars or pick up cars. So when the H train does his set out, usually they set out cars in either 4 track or 8 track sometimes. 9 track is a stub track that used to connect to 8. 9 Track is used to store double rotor coal cars, some acid tanks and the two cabooses that are used in the yard. 10 track is a storage track usually with tanks and other freight cars that are waiting to depart on H trains, 11 track is used to store coal train adds, usually east striped cars and 12 track is also used to store coal adds usually west striped cars, 13 track is the bad order track, any car bad ordered by the carman are sent to 13 track till they are spotted at the car shop, 14 track is used to store random cars like ballast cars and any other odd cars, there is also a spur leading to a ramp that comes off of 14 to unload box cars, Walmart used to get deliveries to this ramp track. Ziez track is used to store maintenance of way equipment , the WYE track is used to load ballast cars. The short shop track is the track where the carman replace wheels. Shop 1 and Shop 2 are tracks where bad order cars are spotted, the car shop has a "rabbit" that hooks to the car with a cable and drug inside the car shop, when a car is done the car is kicked out on the east end. There is a wheel spur south of the shop where flat cars carrying wheels are spotted for the carman, also the carman load the bad wheels on the same flat car and the switch crew pulls them, Cab Alley is the old caboose servicing track, there is a cement pad and facilities to service cabooses, the pad is in between cab alley and the back lead, coming off the back lead is the wrecker spur, used to be the track where the cranes were stored, now its used as a place to store snow plows, the jordan spreader and other random cars, also its used to store power. The round house is the three tracks leading to the turn table, it is used to store power, the hostlers use the turntable once in a while to either turn power around or turn snow plows around that only have a coupler on one end. The yard office is in the same building as the car shop as well as the offices.

Operating the yard,
There are two interlockings in Mandan, The yard master runs the interlocking from a machine in the yard office. Currently there are three switch crews on three different shifts that work round the clock.
Day Shift
101: The 101 is the switch crew that goes and services the industries in Bismarck, The cars he takes to bismarck are cement cars for two different cement plants in bismarck, cars to be dropped off at the Soo line transfer, and empty gondolas for two different iron yards, the cars he brings home are empty cement, loaded gondolas from the iron yard and cars picked up at the soo line transfer, there is a ramp track in bismarck that is spotted every once in a while with a lumber car or a box car.

102: the 102 is a conventional switch engine that usually works the empties on the west end, When the Coal empties are done with inspections usually there are about 0 to even 10 bad orders to set out, depending on how many bad orders there are, determines how many adds to add. (if there are five bad orders then they will have to add five adds). The first thing the 102 does is cuts off the road power of the train and goes into either 11 or 12 track and gets the number of adds they need, then they go against their train again and air test them, after getting authority to pass the interlocking signal they start to set out their bad order cars. after the bad orders are set out they train either shoved back in the clear or taken to a road crossing so the out bound crew gets on the train and the switch crew comes back into the yard. On the west end of the yard, there is a pretty steep grade. When a switch crew sets out a bad order on either 2 or 3 the foreman bleeds off the air and pulls the pin, the car slowly rolls down the lead and into 13 track, Because of the steep grade, when the car gets to 13 its rolling about 7 to 10 mph. this makes the process of setting out bad order cars a breeze.

103: the 103 is an RCO (remote control engine) that is usually switching on the east coal lead.

Afternoon
201: the 201 is usually switch crew that spots the tesoro refinery that is two miles north of the yard on the zap line sub. Since the only way into the refinery siding is on the south end, the 201 has to shove the cars all the way there, this is what the caboose is used for, if they dont spot the refinery, then they usually spot Heskit Power plant, During this operation, they pull coal cars up to the power plant and shove them into the open tracks, they then pull the empties and hook on the caboose and shove south back to the yard,
210: The 210 is the conventional switch engine that works the empties on the west end and also other work that requires an engineer.
203: The 203 afternoon RCO that switches on the east coal yard lead

Night
305: The 305 switch is a conventional engine that usually shoves acid cars west and spots the chemical company west of the yard, they also pull the corn oil cars
300: The 300 is the conventional that works the empties on the west end
303: Is the night RCO that switches on east coal yard, they also usually gather up 13 track and spot the shops, they also pull the repaired cars on the east shops and switch them out to their respected tracks, This job also builds the local, the Beulah turn, The Beulah turn takes the empty Heskit coal cars, fly ash gons, lime cars and a few grain cars and Anhydrous tanks north to Beulah, When the Beulah turn returns, they bring loaded coal and loaded fly ash gons, empty lime cars and loaded tanks

West bound loads are usually worked by the out bound crews. the conductor and engineer sit in the cab and the utility employee sets out the bad orders, they usually shove them on the adjacent track, the RCO goes up the lead and pickes up the bad orders later and then shoves them down to the west end of 13
 
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Nic --

Great description of your yard and how it is operated !

I hope you won't mind some followup questions.

One question is about tracks 11 and 12 (the coal train adds).

Where do these cars come from?

I can see that one source of west bound empties (on track 12) being coal cars that have been unloaded at the Heskit Power plant, and brought back by job 201 and spotted on track 12.

But the eastbound loaded coal adds on track 11 - where do they come from? Are they former bad ordered cars that have been repaired, and then gets spotted by the night shift's job 303 on track 11 to help replace any loaded coal cars in eastbound trains that gets bad ordered the following day, so the east bound coal trains can deliver the right number of cars to the customer?

If so, I guess there also will be some repaired empties among the empty coal adds on track 12.

I notice the use of the word "striped" (as in "east striped" and "west striped"). New word in this context for me - does it mean anything more than eastbound and westbound?

Also, I am curious about traffic amounts and traffic patterns - in a 24 hour period, how many coal trains will typically stop to get refueled and inspected?

How many H (mixed freight) trains will pass through, and how many will set out cars for local industries or pick up cars from local industries?

I hope I am not asking about anything you are not allowed to talk about.

Smile,
Stein
 
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Do you mean 'in America'? As we speak English in America, not American. :D

<Grin> - you got me there!

Feel free to substitute "in American English" for "in American" and "British English" for "British". Or "in America", if you prefer that.

English is a foreign language for me, and I sometimes make mistakes. My most typical mistake is mixing up "is" and "are", since we use the same word for "is/are" in my language, but I am sure there also are plenty of other mistakes.

Also, we are taught British English in school, so whatever American English spelling and usage I have learned has been picked up in passing.

Anyways - at least my English (either kind) is better than my German :-)

Grin,
Stein
 
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Stein - I wasn't "calling you out" or "had a go" at you, rather just perplexed at what I said to fire you up so. If we were discussing American politics, I would expect some heat (I thought it was the mention of Ann Rand's book), but model railroading? LOL. Look, I see you have many followers here on this forum and I do not believe I had direspected you in anyway, nor said anything out of school. But I apologize if you had taken it any other way. Let's just chaulk it up to a misunderstanding and I'll toughen up when I read your future replies lol.

Doct0rnic - wow, thank you, great write up and sketch. I assume I should have the yard graded with the main line higher and the Wrecker spur at the lowest grade, or is it a left to right grade? I have to admit, much of the operations you detailed eludes me, and some of Stein's questions elude me as well. I think it will be a while before I can catch up on all the terminology or even grasp a basic understanding. But I have printed the page out and will studying it and try to follow along. In the meanwhile, what is a bad order car or load? Thanks again.
 




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