Running Bear's November 2022 Coffee Shop

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Snowman said:
No, B-17's don't race anything, and if I suggested that somehow, my bad. Give a B-17 a three minute head start and it would still lose an air race against three WWII fighters...and lose it in the first three feet. I meant the possibility that the three fighters might have been racing one another, and the outer two had bled off speed, and, unfortunately, had widened their turns. With disastrous consequences for the outermost of the three, and for the crew of the B-17.

The reason I was pondering this possibily was because I had seen a configuration like that at an airshow many years ago. All of us, the spectators, were on the south side of the fence looking north across the east-west runway (which presumably accounted for one of the two long pattern legs--the other paralleling the runway again, but behind us to the south), and beyond that a small valley running west-to-east, and a bit further still to the north. The ridge behind that was high, but to the west end it dropped down a bit...which is where the pack of fighters showed up again before the last pylon.

The fighter race that day ran through this little valley, parallel to the runway pattern, the pack of fighters moving flat out--full throttle from west to east. After they passed us by, they ran off east about eight miles to "first" pylon, then north around (the invisible--hidden over the crest of the ridge) pylon number two, and then back SSW to round pylon number three. As they came visible again about two miles off from behind the ridge, and before they reached pylon #3, they were flying across our view (moving R to L), then they rounded the last pylon and came toward the spectators before pulling still further around to pass us by about...1/4 of a mile away or a bit more. So they ran hard around the third pylon, full left bank--4G turns or more in all cases--and coming toward us and then continued further around their turns to pass in front of us moving from our L-to-R. Sooo...as they passed us, they were paralleling the runway, but only about 1/8th of a mile off the runway traffic pattern to the north. A quarter of a mile from us.

They kept well away from one another, and the stragglers were furthest out and away from the pylons. Meaning...closer to us, but also moving slower, as they had dropped out and been left behind. But they had also separated from the faster planes above and inside them too. So they were the closest to us...but they were, therefore, also closest to the runway pattern loop too. Whether running the same direction or opposite to one another.

In Texas, that might have brought the "outer loop" fighters just too close to the planes flying a traffic loop outside them. In this case the B-17.

So, and having seen it organized that way myself, I do have to wonder if the three fighters, all three inside the flightpath of the B-17 were finishing or had just finished such a pylon race. As with the way the traffic lanes were organized thirty years back was that it had the racers INSIDE the outer loop traffic, and that's almost what I see here.

Which leads to the following conclusion: In this case, and for whatever reasons, the converging aircraft were at, or too close to the same altitude for safety's sake. I know it will all be part of many reviews yet to come, so I'll wonder until I hear more, I suppose.

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Further developments: It seems someone on the local control VFR airspace radio net network told/ordered the P-63 pilot to pass ahead of the B-17. Presumably this voice would be that of the "Air Boss," also known as the flight show controller. So the fighter pilot knew the B-17 was there, but, and until it showed up so suddenly from underneath (big blindspot below on the P-63 Kingcobra, I'm hearing), he may not have been sure whether he had already passed ahead of it, or would need to throttle up to do it...until the bomber suddenly showed up as large as life, coming up from that blind spot underneath.

Another of the clips shows what is, to my mind, a very subtle interruption in the fighter's flight path. Was he throttling up to avoid the collision? Or throttling back down...fast? Was he trying to dump airspeed by bringing in the flaps as quickly as he could? We'll never really know, but I don't buy the "suicide" theory some [*elsewhere. Not here*] have speculated about for even one moment.

I can see the fighter pilot instinctively pull back on the stick, to yank his aircraft back up and away from the bomber, only to have it mush out in a high-speed stall. I can see him--in a mere instant--think about and then discard the idea of diving below the B-17 because he wouldn't have had enough altitude after the dive to pull back up and avoid the ground. So many possibilities, a very short time to decide, and almost all of the choices bad...at best....
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Just want to say there was no pylon racing NOT allowed pilots doing so could and would be grounded And I'm pretty sure the P-63 does not have electric flap control (might be wrong on that ) What the P-63 pilot did and I saw it on one of the videos He went belly up to the leader and that is a big no-no Found a couple things and I'm going to contact a friend that is on the board of Commemorative Air Force and see if he will tell me anything Probably not since under investigation
Anyway here's the schedule for Saturday no pylon race
SATURDAY
9 a.m. Gates open
9 a.m. – 9:45 a.m. Veterans Voices
* Bob Davenport (B-29 Radioman)
* Dan Ragan (B-17 Texas Raiders Veteran)
9:45 a.m. New CAF Member Swearing-In Ceremony on the Flightline
10 a.m. – 10:45 a.m. Veterans Voices Interviews on the Flightline
* David Hamilton (D-Day Pathfinder Pilot)
* Connie Palacioz (B-29 Rosie the Riveter)
10:50 a.m. National Anthem by the Ladies for Liberty
11 a.m. – 2:30 p.m. Flying Demonstrations
* Trainers on Parade
* TORA TORA TORA with B-17 Flying Fortress
* Twisted Texas Airshows
* T-6 Formation Passes
* Air Transport Command Demo (C-45s and C-47s)
* Trojan Phlyers Acro (T-28s)
* Doolittle Raid Demo (B-25 Mitchells)
* Bomber Parade (B-24, B-17, B-25s, A-26)
* Fighter Escorts (SB2C, P-63, P-51s)
* The War Ends (B-29 Superfortress)
* Fighter Power Acro (P-63, P-51 Mustang)
* The War Ends (B-29 Superfortress)
* Missing Man Formation (SB2C, P-51, P-51, P-63)
2:30 p.m. – 3 p.m. Ground Forces Demonstration
3 p.m. Aviation Discovery Zone Closes

and a quote saying what I saw
Arthur Alan Wolk is a Philadelphia aviation attorney who flew in air shows for 12 years. After watching the air show video and hearing the maneuvers described as "bombers on parade," Wolk told The Associated Press Sunday that the P-63 pilot violated the basic rule of formation flying.

"He went belly up to the leader," Wolk said. "That prevents him from gauging distance and position. The risk of collision is very high when you cannot see who you are supposed to be in formation with and that kind of join up is not permitted."

video watch at 30 sec mark he was belly up to the B-17 so could not see him

 
JeffH said:
Me 1 Yotes 0
View attachment 155886

The only good coyote is a dead one. .308 at roughly 130 yards from a rest. I'm glad it didn't feel anything, but happy it's gone. We've lived here for 6 years, and I have only seen a coyote 3-4 times. I hear them more often than that, but they keep their distance.

Here in Ohio, we really only have to worry about coyotes. It's lawful to bait deer in Ohio. Most land owners who hunt feed the deer. Corn fed deer taste a lot better than the ones out in the sticks that eat acorns and other nuts. Every TSC and Rurl King has pallets full of 40lb bags of "deer corn" which is a notch down in quality from what you would buy for farm animals.

Even with the guns and lights, I usually escort our dog outside for his evening constitutional... Dogs like to poo when a trusted member of the pack has his back, LOL!

An obligatory picture of a lone deer about 60 yards out from our house.
View attachment 155887

Another pic, this time of a lone buck. This one is about 90 yards back. I've been seeing this guy for about a week now.
View attachment 155888

My honey hole... a pic I got about 4-5 years ago. This was taken back in the woods. There is a hunting blind nearby
View attachment 155895


One day a few years ago, we were visited by 20-some wild turkeys.
View attachment 155896
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Nice pictures! I agree with the Yotes. My parents used to live outside of Cincinnati in a farm town Loveland. They had goats and chickens and well one morning a Coyote came and slaughter the chickens and a goat. Pops put an end to that.....that very morning. Mom was pissed off. The damn yote didn't eat anything just killed them. So yup we killl'em when we see'em. I have them near my place but none have been brave to roam in back of my property. Same with my pops property they steer clear of it.
 


logandsawman said:
Good morning all, 27° and light snow falling, got about 2" very fluffy stuff overnight, slow drive in to work today mainly due to slippery conditions.

Nothing too exciting going on, got to a point on the layout where nothing is really "pressing" to get done, however have 3 buildings to assemble and stage, lots of time to get it done, however

Took this pic last night, seed house. Reminds me, I have been meaning to get building# and signs on some of the feed mill buildings

Swal - labor cost is going sky high. Local grocery store reports gross sales 27% higher than in May. Thats not because of more people, same amount of people they just charge that much more.

Green - ever notice those with the biggest mouths over how we need to be greener also have the biggest yachts, jets, and mansions? No wonder so many feel disenfranchised over the whole thing.

Todd - In my township they are super lax about permits, it is a rural area with a hands off attitude over government. Suits me fine.

View attachment 155885

Will be back later...


Dave LASM
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Dave: Ya, we live in the County and they pretty much don't care what or how you build it. That said, I always build to code; or really close to it for insurance purpose. The only thing frowned on is septic - .gov wants to know where it is and how close to other folks wells or year around water it is and you can not use an old car body for it anymore. The folks next to us are inside the City limits - boy oh boy what hoops they jump to get anything done.
 
Alcomotive said:
Nice pictures! I agree with the Yotes. My parents used to live outside of Cincinnati in a farm town Loveland. They had goats and chickens and well one morning a Coyote came and slaughter the chickens and a goat. Pops put an end to that.....that very morning. Mom was pissed off. The damn yote didn't eat anything just killed them. So yup we killl'em when we see'em. I have them near my place but none have been brave to roam in back of my property. Same with my pops property they steer clear of it.
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Few years back, wolves were on the 'do not shoot' list ( endangered species ) in Montana. Ya, SSS and you are done. Coyotes are shoot on site.

Later
 
Jaz avalley said:
Had to remember how to set up the flatbed scanner and then find the photos but here's a few samples There's a bunch of em

love them, much cooler than my ready made models.
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Jazz I'm trying to find his paintings of normal stuff I know they are here
Anyway here's something he did back in 1972
found a few more
 

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MikeGTW said:
Just want to say there was no pylon racing NOT allowed pilots doing so could and would be grounded And I'm pretty sure the P-63 does not have electric flap control (might be wrong on that ) What the P-63 pilot did and I saw it on one of the videos He went belly up to the leader and that is a big no-no Found a couple things and I'm going to contact a friend that is on the board of Commemorative Air Force and see if he will tell me anything Probably not since under investigation
Anyway here's the schedule for Saturday no pylon race
SATURDAY
9 a.m. Gates open
9 a.m. – 9:45 a.m. Veterans Voices
* Bob Davenport (B-29 Radioman)
* Dan Ragan (B-17 Texas Raiders Veteran)
9:45 a.m. New CAF Member Swearing-In Ceremony on the Flightline
10 a.m. – 10:45 a.m. Veterans Voices Interviews on the Flightline
* David Hamilton (D-Day Pathfinder Pilot)
* Connie Palacioz (B-29 Rosie the Riveter)
10:50 a.m. National Anthem by the Ladies for Liberty
11 a.m. – 2:30 p.m. Flying Demonstrations
* Trainers on Parade
* TORA TORA TORA with B-17 Flying Fortress
* Twisted Texas Airshows
* T-6 Formation Passes
* Air Transport Command Demo (C-45s and C-47s)
* Trojan Phlyers Acro (T-28s)
* Doolittle Raid Demo (B-25 Mitchells)
* Bomber Parade (B-24, B-17, B-25s, A-26)
* Fighter Escorts (SB2C, P-63, P-51s)
* The War Ends (B-29 Superfortress)
* Fighter Power Acro (P-63, P-51 Mustang)
* The War Ends (B-29 Superfortress)
* Missing Man Formation (SB2C, P-51, P-51, P-63)
2:30 p.m. – 3 p.m. Ground Forces Demonstration
3 p.m. Aviation Discovery Zone Closes

and a quote saying what I saw
Arthur Alan Wolk is a Philadelphia aviation attorney who flew in air shows for 12 years. After watching the air show video and hearing the maneuvers described as "bombers on parade," Wolk told The Associated Press Sunday that the P-63 pilot violated the basic rule of formation flying.

"He went belly up to the leader," Wolk said. "That prevents him from gauging distance and position. The risk of collision is very high when you cannot see who you are supposed to be in formation with and that kind of join up is not permitted."

video watch at 30 sec mark he was belly up to the B-17 so could not see him

Click to expand...

Sorry but I'm gonna stick my nose in here, after having witnessed an air crash at a show some years ago, speculation ran rife as to the cause, speculation/rumour deemed the pilot at fault, for everything from intoxicated, drug use, tiredness, ignorance, basically any reason they could think of, this went on for some two years and caused unimaginable heartache for the pilot's family. The actual cause of the accident was nothing to do with the pilot, he was also a victim.

We can speculate all we want, truth is we weren't there, we don't know who said what to who, and why the pilot(s) did what they did, I suggest we leave it to the investigating authorities to determine cause.

Rumour mongering is never good, especially if your wrong.
 
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Smudge617 said:
Sorry but I'm gonna stick my nose in here, after having witnessed an air crash at a show some years ago, speculation ran rife as to the cause, speculation/rumour deemed the pilot at fault, for everything from intoxicated, drug use, tiredness, ignorance, basically any reason they cpould think of, this went on for some two years and caused unimaginable heartache for the pilot's family. The actual cause of the accident was nothing to do with the pilot, he was also a victim.

We can speculate all we want, truth is we weren't there, we don't know who said what to who, and why the pilot(s) did what they did, I suggest we leave it to the investigating authorities to determine cause.

Rumour mongering is never good, especially if your wrong.
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D&J RailRoad said:
I kinda doubt anybody from the air crew's family will be reading any of these threads.
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The information that I posted regarding the possibility of a medical issue with the P-63 pilot was carried by local news media.
 


santafewillie said:
Swal - Wow! $25K is a big chunk of cash. We were able to do a complete remodel of our master bathroom with all that you describe for about a third of that. We do have a second bathroom that we were able to use for three weeks.Good luck and prayers for your wife's recovery continue.
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Willie I went down to the town for the building permit and they said I just need a drawing of the plan, no architect drawing needed. So with that I'll be doing most of the work. I may have a plumper come in and do the vents and baseboard heat. They say I can't do any of electrical work so I'll have to get an electrician. I have to get a workable plan drawn up today.
Swal
 
Afternoon All,

Started out in the train room running 2 Genesis GP7 diesels for the ongoing run every loco plan. While they were running I planted 50 dried weed clumps (tan) around the Engine Service area. After lunch son and I cleaned gutters and caulked the bathroom window (outside). I also glued the piece of drywall back in place (cut out for shower). It will have to be spakled tomorrow and I need vacuum the pool.

Swal- Three days for clothes is ridiculous. We redid the tub/shower (taken to the studs) in the downstairs for Dad when he was moving in. A low lip tiled shower with a permanent seat and built in shelf. After the shower hardware and a low height toliet we spent around $8,000 and it took about 4 days. We didn't have to modify the door frames, but I believe a transfer chair would go through the doors (bedroom past the rear door) without difficulty.

JazzDad- I believe IBKen did a similar scene on his layout.

Smudge- That's $1,525 more than I would pay. I sent your BBQ meme to my daughter...the vegetarian. 😂

Dave- Nice layout shot.

Jeff- Nice assortment of wildlife.

Jaz- Interesting scenes.

Chad- Ouch!:oops: Yes, Orlando is in Central Florida.

I hope everyone has a good night.
 
<sigh> recently learned my closest LHS closed its door for walk-in. Online ordering and Ebay only. It has been reinforced to me severely over the past few weeks just how much of a dinosaur I am - - - - but I kinda thought this hobby attracted fellow thunder-lizards. Guess it's tough for the brick-and-mortar stores.
 
PRR Modeler said:
Swal- Three days for clothes is ridiculous. We redid the tub/shower (taken to the studs) in the downstairs for Dad when he was moving in. A low lip tiled shower with a permanent seat and built in shelf. After the shower hardware and a low height toliet we spent around $8,000 and it took about 4 days. We didn't have to modify the door frames, but I believe a transfer chair would go through the doors (bedroom past the rear door) without difficulty.
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Curt I'm building a new bathroom in our 20 X 14 Rec room. I'm trying to lay it out now. I'm thinking 6 X 10 of the 14 X 20 space. The other bathroom stays as is. We hardly every use the room anymore. There was a 8 X 10 hot tub in there at one time. I removed it about 3 years ago.
Swal
 


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