Their tax rates have been steadily declining since Reagan. who began the lowering of tax rates and the fairy tale of trickle down economics. If you don't like the EIC you can blame Reagan. He preferred it over raising the minimum wage. When you cut taxes for rich people, the result is always the rich people have more money. We've seen it over and over again. The trickle never trickles. In the 50's and 60's we had a thriving expanding middle class, great infrastructure and a healthy economy. Now not so much. As an author friend of mine once said "If you convince the Joads to vote like the Gatsbys you get more Joads, richer Gatsbys and the gradual disappearance of the Cleavers." I would also like to see the projections of who pays what once those tax cuts everyone not in the top tier got under the last administration sunset in 2025.
Running Bear's February 2022 Coffee Shop
- Thread starter bnsf971
- Start date
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Everyone was a first time home owner, (except us...we were buying our fourth house.),everyone was being taken advantage of by local small business, and riled up by political activists who saw opportunity among the masses. We were considered to be "HICKS", because we were from Maryland..."Down South" . Seriously! On top of that, we had a moving company deliver and set up...provided by my employer...everyone else did the move in over the weekend with a U-Haul. And we had a yellow washer and dryer (Matched the kitchen in our first house in Bowie MD, three houses prior) but everyone else had builder grade white.
That set the stage. I was hoping to be moved again within three years, never happened. We were not impressed with the area, and I guess it showed. ...OTOH, we have built a nice chunk of equity, and once the MIL issue is settled, we are outta here.
Why do we have shortages today? A. We don't make anything, everything is produced off shore...
George
Some random thoughts:
Uhm, you can claim trickle down doesn't work, but only by cherry picking facts and narrow definition of "works" will make that fairy tale true. No country has taxed themselves to prosperity. It doesn't work. The US economy and the fact that even the poor have smart phones and flat screen TVs shows that "trickle down" economics (big picture version) works. Giving more money to an inefficient government that skims off the top (ie, every $ paid in taxes is not put back into the economy -- there is a cost of government that has to be paid for) does not lead to prosperity. Usually when a tax cut package is passed, the IRS reports new records on taxes collected. Over the long term, lower taxes leads to higher economic growth.
Rich people spend money. They invest money in businesses. That helps drive the economy. "rich people" already pay almost all income taxes (I posted links). The top 10% pay approximately 71% of all income taxes (but only capture 48% of income earned). The US income tax system is very progressive -- meaning the more you make the higher percentage you pay so that the rich pay a higher percentage of income than the non rich.
The example of the 50s-60s where we had a high marginal rate as "proof" that taxation "works" is faulty. We could create a new 100% rate for all income earned over $500 million. No one would pay it nut we would have a high marginal rate. The marginal rate is the tax rate charged on the last dollar of income and is a basically useless mechanism.
The average tax rate has stayed about the same since WW2 -- between 12% and 15%. The effective rates have gone down somewhat since WW2 for the highest earners but due to a lot of changes in the system and how things like capital gains are taxed.
The reason why the burden on people has gotten worse since WW2 is not becvause of the lowering of taxes. It is because the spending by the US government has gone up over time (calculated as percentage of GDP). After ww2 we had a low of about 10.8% in 1948 to a high in 2020 of 31% (but 2019 was 20.8% and the previous "high" was during Obama in of a hair over 24% in 2009 (2010-2011 about 23% and trend down after that).
One of the problems is that the "rich" don't want new "rich" so they lobby the government for programs that keep the "poor", "poor" and make it hard for the middle class to go up. Higher taxes to pay for government hand outs (increased govt spending as percentage of GDP) keeps the growth of the middle class down. Every govt program designed to "help", like free money for education, free healthcare and mandates on healthcare, etc just increases cost and drains the middle class as they cannot accumulate wealth due to ever higher taxes. While the rich pay the lion's share of income taxes, they are already rich.
Lower taxes do not make the rich, richer because they are paying less taxes (usually they actually aren't paying less taxes). Lower taxes means things like their investments and other ways they accumulate money make them more money. Lower taxes == economic growth and the rich capture the growth through their investments.
Anyway, enoiugh rambling. Higher taxes and "tax the rich" won't do anything. It won't bring in more money, and would probably depress the economy. The most sure way to increase the economy is to lower the level of taxation in the system and to lower the net drain out of the system of government spending. Lowering the spending puts more money into the economy which drives growth.
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Look at net worth. People like Bezos and Musk gained tremendous wealth. You worried they won't be able to afford that third yacht? Not me. In WW2 and in the 50's & 60's we had a top tax rate of 91% and we still had plenty of wealthy people. Under the tax cut and jobs act my accountant says I paid a couple of percent less in taxes. Did I notice it in my paycheck. Nope. The flaw in your argument here is you're only looking at federal income tax. You have to look at the total tax burden. if you look at it all, all groups pay taxes. the difference is where the money goes. Wealthy do pay the most federal. Lower incomes pay more into everything else, and a larger share of their income overall.
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MikeInHubCity
Living the life in the heart of the Dairy State
Louis- I’ve been in favor of a flat tax for years. That way, everyone pays the same percentage.Good morning Everybody!
I don't like paying taxes, but fair is fair. What I really don't like is big corporations and the rich often don't pay their fair share.
Taxing retirement income is "dirty pool"
Our tax system encourages the poor to stay poor. It should be motivating them to do better. I wish I had a dollar for every time I heard someone say "why work over time? taxes go up." I don't buy into that thinking, but many do.
How about a flat tax, every worker and corporation pays the same rate!
Oh well, time to put on my "blinders on", focus on what I can do and forget about the things beyond my control.
Have a great day Everybody, "don't let the bastards get you down!" Despite what anyone tries to tell us, the American worker drives our economy.
We are already on top, level the playing field and lets us show what we can really do! USA, USA, USA
santafewillie
Same Ol' Buzzard
This tax thing has turned into quite a discussion. My simple observations are that 1) the rich are not getting richer because they are paying less taxes, they are getting richer because they are working harder at getting richer. As Chad has pointed out, they are actually paying more according to reliable statistics. 2) Most middle income people did not realize that they were paying less because of direct deposit. They quit looking at pay stubs and just looked occasionally at their balance online without realizing where it was coming from. My wife, an H&R Block tax preparer had to show this to many people when she did their taxes in the last few years. 3) A lot of the federal tax savings was eaten away by state and local authorities taking up the slack. 4) There is some truth to trickle-down. My son works for Amazon cloud services, today they announced that they were going to double their wages. I expect to see raises to the warehouse workers in the near future, but not as great.
The real problem as I see it is excessive government spending. Foreign aid is at the top of my list. That includes having thousands of US military troops located in countries that could well afford their own, Germany, Japan, UK, and others. On the state and local level are all of the subsidiaries and incentives given to big business like Amazon to locate in their area. And don't get me started about entitlements. Thank goodness that I live in a state with no state income tax.
The real problem as I see it is excessive government spending. Foreign aid is at the top of my list. That includes having thousands of US military troops located in countries that could well afford their own, Germany, Japan, UK, and others. On the state and local level are all of the subsidiaries and incentives given to big business like Amazon to locate in their area. And don't get me started about entitlements. Thank goodness that I live in a state with no state income tax.
Texas Hobo
Well Known Hobo
Well, it's been a taxing afternoon. spent several hours in the train room working on a few scenes and then running steamers for a while. I remove the SD40-2's from the layout. That leaves only RS-3's and steam locos.
Added a couple of railfans.
Gandy dancers getting their hand car ready
All steamers
STAY SAFE
LATER
Added a couple of railfans.
Gandy dancers getting their hand car ready
All steamers
STAY SAFE
LATER
Texas Hobo
Well Known Hobo
Missed one, added lady getting into her Buick after a good meal.
NYC_George
Well-Known Member
We could all solve this tax problem by purchasing one of Willie's 15 acres. He pays a $1,000 a year in property tax. We would be paying $150.00 for 1 acre. Not to laugh when I spent the winter in FL my wife and I stopped by one of her friends in Boynton Beach. I asked her how much to you pay in property tax a year? Say said $250.00. Not only that the place also had a golf course and if you own a house there the golf is free.
George
George
montanan
Whiskey Merchant
Good afternoon. Going to make it quick this afternoon. Went up to Missoula with my son to pick up the car that crapped on the way up to Libby a couple of months ago. He didn't want to miss too much work as he was in the middle of a big project. Was up at 0330 to get an early start. Feel like I'm running on empty now.
Terry - Interesting derailment video. Couldn't have had a camera in a better location.
Joe - Rant as much as you feel like. Having to be putting up with all of the restrictions in that part of the country you deserve double rant time.
Ken - Knowing how exacting you are, sorry to hear about the module.
Louis - I rarely eat fast food if at all possible. Some of it barely qualifies as food.
Patrick - Looks like you have enough there to keep you busy for a while.
James - That equipment is beautiful.
Todd - Can't wait to get out of here. We will get together.
My girls are here wanting me to feed them. They were so good on the trip today.
Later
Terry - Interesting derailment video. Couldn't have had a camera in a better location.
Joe - Rant as much as you feel like. Having to be putting up with all of the restrictions in that part of the country you deserve double rant time.
Ken - Knowing how exacting you are, sorry to hear about the module.
Louis - I rarely eat fast food if at all possible. Some of it barely qualifies as food.
Patrick - Looks like you have enough there to keep you busy for a while.
James - That equipment is beautiful.
Todd - Can't wait to get out of here. We will get together.
My girls are here wanting me to feed them. They were so good on the trip today.
Later
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CambriaArea51
Well-Known Member
I've seen a few derailments at Santa Fe junction. They should rename it Malfunction Junction.
T
TrucTrain55
Guest
Yes next week I’ll start my seedlings in side.
moermusic
Well-Known Member
several yrs ago, after retirement, but brought back on occassionaly, as required, to fill in, over one 6 day period, by the time all was said and done, I averaged 500$/day. shift was 8hrs/day plus 2 hrs/day standby(at reg wage), plus sat was 8 hrs at time& a half, double time after the first 8 ; Sunday was double time for all hrs worked. MY wage was $ 27.00/hr tax was high, but all recovered at the end of the yr.
T
TrucTrain55
Guest
Good Evening all from the Ozark Foothills. Sorry I missed this morning it was so busy at work. Last night I added some O Scale City Designs ladders to my Custom O scale Armour AHM Reefer car. I have a couple more on the bench to do after this one. The REA one I custom painted and decaled years ago. I’ll be adding Kadees to these also
moermusic
Well-Known Member
re tax: I told employers to overtax me. wanted the spring return all in one lump sum
my buddy said, feds aint gettin more than required. He always had to save in order to pay in the spring.
(now maybe he could put his in pocket cash to work - make more than he would have to pay) damned if you do, damned if you dont !
my buddy said, feds aint gettin more than required. He always had to save in order to pay in the spring.
(now maybe he could put his in pocket cash to work - make more than he would have to pay) damned if you do, damned if you dont !
As tight financially as things are at my house, I don't want to have to scramble to pay taxes. I try to get a hundred dollars or so back. This year, my state income tax refund will be $11--whenever the state gets around to allowing returns to be filed.
D&J RailRoad
Professor of HO
5 hours of putting stuff back together that got broke in transport from the show and onto the layout.
Still haven't opened the trailer box to start dismantling the modules. Another member would like to buy the yard throat modules so he can take a shot at building a smaller version of what I started. The rest of the modules are way to warped out of shape to consider salvaging.
Still haven't opened the trailer box to start dismantling the modules. Another member would like to buy the yard throat modules so he can take a shot at building a smaller version of what I started. The rest of the modules are way to warped out of shape to consider salvaging.
Boris
Beach Bum
Interesting anology. But that's exactly what appears to be happening. That "surprise" sunset should prove interesting. Believe the doubled standard deduction is one of the items that sunset.
Howell, NJ, in Monmouth County...I was Corporately relocating, and faced with sticker shock and bidding wars real estate prices. Howell was the fastest growing community in Jersey, and it seemed everyone from Staten Island, Brooklyn, and Essex County just had to come here. The old timers, who hadn't cashed out yet, disliked the new comers. Shopping was scarce, and the establishment opposed new centers. Became a cultural divide as the rural area rapidly urbanized. Classic rapid growth in a short time.
Everyone was a first time home owner, (except us...we were buying our fourth house.),everyone was being taken advantage of by local small business, and riled up by political activists who saw opportunity among the masses. We were considered to be "HICKS", because we were from Maryland..."Down South" . Seriously! On top of that, we had a moving company deliver and set up...provided by my employer...everyone else did the move in over the weekend with a U-Haul. And we had a yellow washer and dryer (Matched the kitchen in our first house in Bowie MD, three houses prior) but everyone else had builder grade white.
That set the stage. I was hoping to be moved again within three years, never happened. We were not impressed with the area, and I guess it showed. ...OTOH, we have built a nice chunk of equity, and once the MIL issue is settled, we are outta here.
Boris
Beach Bum
The problem may be that the spending is not directed into areas that would benefit Americans, create jobs and wealth in America, instead of worrying about our so called Allies. We financed the transportation infrastructure in Europe and Japan after we blew it up in WW2, then permitted these countries to dump their manufactured goods on us below cost, while we garrisoned troops to protect them from the Big Bad Bear. Meanwhile, we allowed our own transportation infrastructure to deteriorate, and manufacturing to evaporate because it was "free enterprise"
Why do we have shortages today? A. We don't make anything, everything is produced off shore...
NYC_George
Well-Known Member
James my friend wants to buy one but says something about the guy's not taking orders until the present orders are filled. Is that true?
George
chadbag
Well-Known Member
Some random thoughts:
Uhm, you can claim trickle down doesn't work, but only by cherry picking facts and narrow definition of "works" will make that fairy tale true. No country has taxed themselves to prosperity. It doesn't work. The US economy and the fact that even the poor have smart phones and flat screen TVs shows that "trickle down" economics (big picture version) works. Giving more money to an inefficient government that skims off the top (ie, every $ paid in taxes is not put back into the economy -- there is a cost of government that has to be paid for) does not lead to prosperity. Usually when a tax cut package is passed, the IRS reports new records on taxes collected. Over the long term, lower taxes leads to higher economic growth.
Rich people spend money. They invest money in businesses. That helps drive the economy. "rich people" already pay almost all income taxes (I posted links). The top 10% pay approximately 71% of all income taxes (but only capture 48% of income earned). The US income tax system is very progressive -- meaning the more you make the higher percentage you pay so that the rich pay a higher percentage of income than the non rich.
The example of the 50s-60s where we had a high marginal rate as "proof" that taxation "works" is faulty. We could create a new 100% rate for all income earned over $500 million. No one would pay it nut we would have a high marginal rate. The marginal rate is the tax rate charged on the last dollar of income and is a basically useless mechanism.
The average tax rate has stayed about the same since WW2 -- between 12% and 15%. The effective rates have gone down somewhat since WW2 for the highest earners but due to a lot of changes in the system and how things like capital gains are taxed.
The reason why the burden on people has gotten worse since WW2 is not becvause of the lowering of taxes. It is because the spending by the US government has gone up over time (calculated as percentage of GDP). After ww2 we had a low of about 10.8% in 1948 to a high in 2020 of 31% (but 2019 was 20.8% and the previous "high" was during Obama in of a hair over 24% in 2009 (2010-2011 about 23% and trend down after that).
One of the problems is that the "rich" don't want new "rich" so they lobby the government for programs that keep the "poor", "poor" and make it hard for the middle class to go up. Higher taxes to pay for government hand outs (increased govt spending as percentage of GDP) keeps the growth of the middle class down. Every govt program designed to "help", like free money for education, free healthcare and mandates on healthcare, etc just increases cost and drains the middle class as they cannot accumulate wealth due to ever higher taxes. While the rich pay the lion's share of income taxes, they are already rich.
Lower taxes do not make the rich, richer because they are paying less taxes (usually they actually aren't paying less taxes). Lower taxes means things like their investments and other ways they accumulate money make them more money. Lower taxes == economic growth and the rich capture the growth through their investments.
Anyway, enoiugh rambling. Higher taxes and "tax the rich" won't do anything. It won't bring in more money, and would probably depress the economy. The most sure way to increase the economy is to lower the level of taxation in the system and to lower the net drain out of the system of government spending. Lowering the spending puts more money into the economy which drives growth.
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