Running Bear's Coffee Shop July 2024
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That truck is in great shape for being 21 years old. Around here with the amount of salt they use the bed, and the bottom of the doors would of been rusted out 10 years ago.
I have no problem with people taking those degrees. But they won't lead to a job for most people and they leave debt behind. If you can afford it then have at it. But don't expect to make the world your oyster with one. Nor for me and other tax payers to bail you out.
There are a ton of ways to make it in this life without a degree. The trades. Entrepeneurship. In some fields you can be successful (though not as successful as with a degree long term) like in computers. Degrees often can enhance those fields but they're not strictly necessary.
yes they are.
A lot seems to have changed between when I was in school and now. I think that at the place I went (BYU) that most textbooks are sold online by 3rd parties but I'm not really sure. I've visited campus and teh textbook section is much smaller it appears and you see ads for online textbook stores etc.
My son was at a community college for a concurrent enrollment class a few years ago when he was still in HS (btw that was a great program -- he did several college credit courses at the community college through this program for something like $5 a semester plus books/supplies). They had a more traditional book store where you could buy the textbooks and it wasn't that cheap. They did get used though.
I'm of the opinion that most college doesn't teach you specific skills that you can immediately apply (especially in tech as the tech changes so fast). Rather it exposes you to different ways of thinking, different takes on subjects, and gives you experience in rigor in thinking/thought. You learn to do the actual job when you get your first job and learn the specific skills that job requires. But you were prepared through earning the degree, learning new ways of thinking, new ways of working, exposure to basic tenets of fields, etc.
As an example. I'm a software engineer. I work mainly on mobile devices (iPhones). When I went to school the iPhone was not even a twinkle in Steve Job's eyes and the programming languages used today were not taught in college then (though the Objective-C language was around and starting to be used on NeXT workstations when I was early in school and that evolved to what the iPhone was and still is to a certain degree though the Swift language and the new Swift based paradigms are all new). In other words, I did not go to college to learn how to program computers using specific skills of language etc but to learn how to think about problems, learn basic ideas of computer science, and get experience implementing solutions to basic problems. Then when I got my first job I had to learn a whole bunch of specific skills that applied to that job, but was able to function because of the general background and thinking ability I had gained in school. I think most college degrees are the same way. They help you develop the background and thinking skills necessary to learn the real skills on the job for that specific job.
I know people who studied and worked as engineers who are now lawyers. But their undergraduate and initial work experience as engineers greatly improve their ability to function as lawyers because of the different perspectives they learned and experience they got that helps them to think differently than a lawyer who went through whatever undergraduate major is for lawyers (communications or psychology or whatever) and then went straight to law school.
Maybe learning to become a fashion design before becoming a roller derby office worker and then skater helped that person with increased perspective and creative thinking and got them to where they are today.
While my degrees in Journalism were directly applied, and I attended college at a time they were still state supported, that profession struggled to pay enough to overcome the school loans I had to take out.
My grandfather, a WW2 vet TRIED to get me to accept an appointment to any military academy. Even had the senator and congress critter lined up to push my name in...
That would have been a disaster. Math being one problem, and me having zero desire being the other. As much as I appreciate all he did for me now, back then as a 17 year old kid, the phrase "It'll make a man out of you!" was probably the worst thing to say.
Do I regret NOT going to one of the academies? No. It wouldn't have fit. I would have washed out early on.
One requirement of the journalism bachelors degree I earned was having a double major, because we needed to be well rounded in our education. I chose two related minors to make a New Testament Studies major.
Have I ever worked in ministry? Nope. Have I been a journalist writing on religious topics? Nope. I'm not even religious.
But I learned a lot about what makes the political world tick, and I have worked in that profession. At a very low level. What I saw here in Indiana scared me. To say more crosses the line.
So, I've got no problems with Political Science degrees, Religious degrees, or LGBT degrees. Just like I don't have problems with business degrees or engineering degrees. Completing a degree shows you know how to apply yourself being a fraternity brother and drinking enough beer to down a horse, then making it to class the next day.
I find it unfortunate that states are tightening their budgets at the expense of students, especially those not cut out for careers in the military or trades.
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migalyto
Well-Known Member
Good morning everyone!
Had a decent rain shower move through the area this morning. We got drenched last night as well. As Tom mentioned in his post, the grass has done a 180 and is back to spring growth it seems. Mowing might have to be on the agenda today, as we will be gone most of the day tomorrow with a family reunion/4th of July get together.
Down in the basement last nigh I finally have all the cork down to finish the mainline. It will be nice to finally be able to traverse the entire layout.
The college discussion has made me glad I attended tech school.
Have a great day everyone!
Had a decent rain shower move through the area this morning. We got drenched last night as well. As Tom mentioned in his post, the grass has done a 180 and is back to spring growth it seems. Mowing might have to be on the agenda today, as we will be gone most of the day tomorrow with a family reunion/4th of July get together.
Down in the basement last nigh I finally have all the cork down to finish the mainline. It will be nice to finally be able to traverse the entire layout.
The college discussion has made me glad I attended tech school.
Have a great day everyone!
migalyto
Well-Known Member
A decent sound system
That truck is in great shape for being 21 years old. Around here with the amount of salt they use the bed, and the bottom of the doors would of been rusted out 10 years ago.
chadbag
Well-Known Member
There are a heck of a lot of people WITH degrees at call centers too working the phones. Ones with the Ethnomusicoligy and LGBQ+ degrees.
I have no problem with people taking those degrees. But they won't lead to a job for most people and they leave debt behind. If you can afford it then have at it. But don't expect to make the world your oyster with one. Nor for me and other tax payers to bail you out.
There are a ton of ways to make it in this life without a degree. The trades. Entrepeneurship. In some fields you can be successful (though not as successful as with a degree long term) like in computers. Degrees often can enhance those fields but they're not strictly necessary.
NYC_George
Well-Known Member
One thing they should teach but don't is the how the interest rate on your credit card will do you in.
Swal
Swal
migalyto
Well-Known Member
And how wonderful compound interest on investments are!
chadbag
Well-Known Member
yes they are.
A lot seems to have changed between when I was in school and now. I think that at the place I went (BYU) that most textbooks are sold online by 3rd parties but I'm not really sure. I've visited campus and teh textbook section is much smaller it appears and you see ads for online textbook stores etc.
My son was at a community college for a concurrent enrollment class a few years ago when he was still in HS (btw that was a great program -- he did several college credit courses at the community college through this program for something like $5 a semester plus books/supplies). They had a more traditional book store where you could buy the textbooks and it wasn't that cheap. They did get used though.
NYC_George
Well-Known Member
My father started out pounding rail spikes on the New York Central and moved up to MOW timekeeper. My brother also started out pounding spikes on the Penn Central and moved up from there to working in the MOW office ordering supplies. They both retired with railroad pensions.
Swal
Swal
NorthBrit
Well-Known Member
College & Kids
Kids these days (seem to) want everything yesterday. They say the Country should provide it free. They believe they should not 'help the Country' by doing a days work.
After WW2 if you wanted anything then get off your 'rusty dusty', work and earn some money.
College and University was a no-go for 'working class people'. Work in a Trade, learn and improve yourself was the way.
The Company I worked for paid for me to have four months at Leeds Branch College of Commerce
Still at the same Company I paid myself to attend St Aidan's College, University of Durham. Then to Queen's College, Oxford.
All the time learning what I needed to earn more money than previous.
Dawn did a similar route. A route that eventually earned her more money than I.
Our daughter has the same mentality (which she instils into her children). That mentality has her earning more money than both Dawn and I earned before we retired.
Our son and DiL on the other hand live from week to week; struggling on basic pay? What Dawn and I have said to help improve their lives goes unheeded.
'The nail doesn't hurt much'. (see post 120)
Kids these days (seem to) want everything yesterday. They say the Country should provide it free. They believe they should not 'help the Country' by doing a days work.
After WW2 if you wanted anything then get off your 'rusty dusty', work and earn some money.
College and University was a no-go for 'working class people'. Work in a Trade, learn and improve yourself was the way.
The Company I worked for paid for me to have four months at Leeds Branch College of Commerce
Still at the same Company I paid myself to attend St Aidan's College, University of Durham. Then to Queen's College, Oxford.
All the time learning what I needed to earn more money than previous.
Dawn did a similar route. A route that eventually earned her more money than I.
Our daughter has the same mentality (which she instils into her children). That mentality has her earning more money than both Dawn and I earned before we retired.
Our son and DiL on the other hand live from week to week; struggling on basic pay? What Dawn and I have said to help improve their lives goes unheeded.
'The nail doesn't hurt much'. (see post 120)
Grizzled
Well-Known Member
Morning people
Mostly blue sky and 65 for the forecast high. That said, a week from now appears to be our first dose of 90's.
Another day in which nothing will be actually accomplished but my brother and nephew should be here about lunch time. I haven't seen the nephew for 20 years.
And hopefully the case of canine diarrhea has run its course. I bought an $80 bag of Science Diet for sensitive skin and stomach to give the border collie that has a skin problem with the only discerning effect being diarrhea----
Without higher education, the country has absolutely no future, most especially in the unfolding high tech that is the world today. You will not find that in a trade school, period. Soooo, it comes down to what you want to do with your life and obviously there is dire need for both trades and a pool of highly educated brain power. The choice is yours but I don't care to be paying for your student loan debt. That too is free choice.
As for the brain washing, they are all thrown in the laundry one way or another.
Mostly blue sky and 65 for the forecast high. That said, a week from now appears to be our first dose of 90's.
Another day in which nothing will be actually accomplished but my brother and nephew should be here about lunch time. I haven't seen the nephew for 20 years.
And hopefully the case of canine diarrhea has run its course. I bought an $80 bag of Science Diet for sensitive skin and stomach to give the border collie that has a skin problem with the only discerning effect being diarrhea----
Without higher education, the country has absolutely no future, most especially in the unfolding high tech that is the world today. You will not find that in a trade school, period. Soooo, it comes down to what you want to do with your life and obviously there is dire need for both trades and a pool of highly educated brain power. The choice is yours but I don't care to be paying for your student loan debt. That too is free choice.
As for the brain washing, they are all thrown in the laundry one way or another.
NYC_George
Well-Known Member
My brother sent his daughter to France to become a clothing designer because that's what she wanted to be. I said, it was a waste of money. Not very many opening in the field. When she couldn't find any work as a clothing designer She started working in the office of the Roller Derby in CT. Then she became a skater herself. She was very good at it. Then she started selling heath food to other skaters. She's been in the health food business for the last 30 years. My brother spent all this money sending her to France. Like I said, it was a waste of money.
Swal
Swal
chadbag
Well-Known Member
Was it a waste? That experience shaped his daughter.
I'm of the opinion that most college doesn't teach you specific skills that you can immediately apply (especially in tech as the tech changes so fast). Rather it exposes you to different ways of thinking, different takes on subjects, and gives you experience in rigor in thinking/thought. You learn to do the actual job when you get your first job and learn the specific skills that job requires. But you were prepared through earning the degree, learning new ways of thinking, new ways of working, exposure to basic tenets of fields, etc.
As an example. I'm a software engineer. I work mainly on mobile devices (iPhones). When I went to school the iPhone was not even a twinkle in Steve Job's eyes and the programming languages used today were not taught in college then (though the Objective-C language was around and starting to be used on NeXT workstations when I was early in school and that evolved to what the iPhone was and still is to a certain degree though the Swift language and the new Swift based paradigms are all new). In other words, I did not go to college to learn how to program computers using specific skills of language etc but to learn how to think about problems, learn basic ideas of computer science, and get experience implementing solutions to basic problems. Then when I got my first job I had to learn a whole bunch of specific skills that applied to that job, but was able to function because of the general background and thinking ability I had gained in school. I think most college degrees are the same way. They help you develop the background and thinking skills necessary to learn the real skills on the job for that specific job.
I know people who studied and worked as engineers who are now lawyers. But their undergraduate and initial work experience as engineers greatly improve their ability to function as lawyers because of the different perspectives they learned and experience they got that helps them to think differently than a lawyer who went through whatever undergraduate major is for lawyers (communications or psychology or whatever) and then went straight to law school.
Maybe learning to become a fashion design before becoming a roller derby office worker and then skater helped that person with increased perspective and creative thinking and got them to where they are today.
Last edited:
KriegslokBR52
Well-Known Member
Good noon everyone:
Texas Hobo
Well Known Hobo
College / Trade school? I sometimes wonder if kids graduating from high school really know what it is they want to do or be. I my case, my father said it would be hard, but he would put me through college. I was 16 when I graduated HS and was so very tired of school. I had absolutely no idea what I wanted to do or be, other than not in school. I lucked out and found a job in the city. My math skills got me balancing all the books prior to State auditor's inspections. The only plans for the future, planned when I was 8, was to go into the USCG. I wound up in the trades, heavy equipment operator, pipefitter, boilermaker and rigger. A short stint as a welder. In the end I landed in management, overseeing Petrochemical unit shutdowns and turnarounds.
Oh, today I wish I told my dad I want to be an Arson Investigator.
Oh, today I wish I told my dad I want to be an Arson Investigator.
ctclibby
Well-Known Member
Good Morning All!
57F @82% cloudy and a few drops.
Had fun this morning. Flash and Booms happened last night about midnight. 2 of them. 1st flash woke me up. Time between the flash and the boom on the 2nd was 1/4 to 1/2 second. Ya, 300 to 600 feet up/away. Took out the cable modem AND the 4 port net card on the Proliant server. Lucky I had another 4 port card, then went to the cable company and got a new modem. Think my UPS has network in/out for spike protection so will play with that a little later.
College: back in 84 I looked into UofW and Eastern Washington U. Both had Engineering @ 4 years. Geesh though I, 4 years? So, found out that Spokane Community had highly rated Electronics program and did that. Since I dropped out of HS, had to take 6 months of bonehead stuff - Reading and Study, Algebra 101, Physics 101 ... stuff like that. The Electronics classes were more 'hands on' than the Engineering stuff and that was only 2 years. Graduated Spring '87 as a 'Master Technician'. In those times, job placement was very good. Nothing in Spokane, so off to Everett, Wa I went. Now days 'Master Technician' is pretty much meaningless as nobody ( well almost ) does component level repair, and are board jockey's. Ya, I know what is in those little black boxes called IC's. Did not take out any loans from anybody. Did have a Pell Grant that helped and worked when I could. Note that SCC had 'trade' programs ( welding, auto maintenance, auto body, cooking, plumbing and HVAC ) and were usually full or close to it.
Jobs: After working the industry for about 6 years, I decided to roll my own and opened a monitor repair shop. In one respect it probably was a st00pid mistake as you all know monitors got cheaper and cheaper. On the other respect, I garnered a ton of learning information for almost 5 years. I transisitioned into Computer Repair, Networking and became a Internet provider and a small datacenter; and had our own computer store on Everett Avenue ( 35K cars a day ): YesterdaysPC. Anybody that came to work for me ( had full time 4 employee's, 1 part time at the height ) started at the lowest level: Pickup/Delivery and shipping/receiving, then went into the wanted job slot after a month or so. I firmly believe that ALL employees should do just that, even those 6 figure Engineers or Management folks. Lets them get to know the company from the ground up. Even in the 90's I had wanna be technicians that would only start at $40K - down the street they went. At that time $15Hr was pretty much standard for entry level technicians, even Boeing, Physio Control, Fluke ....etc. End result is that lowley trade school pointed me in the right direction!
When life closes a door on you
Open another
That is what doors do!
Later
57F @82% cloudy and a few drops.
Had fun this morning. Flash and Booms happened last night about midnight. 2 of them. 1st flash woke me up. Time between the flash and the boom on the 2nd was 1/4 to 1/2 second. Ya, 300 to 600 feet up/away. Took out the cable modem AND the 4 port net card on the Proliant server. Lucky I had another 4 port card, then went to the cable company and got a new modem. Think my UPS has network in/out for spike protection so will play with that a little later.
College: back in 84 I looked into UofW and Eastern Washington U. Both had Engineering @ 4 years. Geesh though I, 4 years? So, found out that Spokane Community had highly rated Electronics program and did that. Since I dropped out of HS, had to take 6 months of bonehead stuff - Reading and Study, Algebra 101, Physics 101 ... stuff like that. The Electronics classes were more 'hands on' than the Engineering stuff and that was only 2 years. Graduated Spring '87 as a 'Master Technician'. In those times, job placement was very good. Nothing in Spokane, so off to Everett, Wa I went. Now days 'Master Technician' is pretty much meaningless as nobody ( well almost ) does component level repair, and are board jockey's. Ya, I know what is in those little black boxes called IC's. Did not take out any loans from anybody. Did have a Pell Grant that helped and worked when I could. Note that SCC had 'trade' programs ( welding, auto maintenance, auto body, cooking, plumbing and HVAC ) and were usually full or close to it.
Jobs: After working the industry for about 6 years, I decided to roll my own and opened a monitor repair shop. In one respect it probably was a st00pid mistake as you all know monitors got cheaper and cheaper. On the other respect, I garnered a ton of learning information for almost 5 years. I transisitioned into Computer Repair, Networking and became a Internet provider and a small datacenter; and had our own computer store on Everett Avenue ( 35K cars a day ): YesterdaysPC. Anybody that came to work for me ( had full time 4 employee's, 1 part time at the height ) started at the lowest level: Pickup/Delivery and shipping/receiving, then went into the wanted job slot after a month or so. I firmly believe that ALL employees should do just that, even those 6 figure Engineers or Management folks. Lets them get to know the company from the ground up. Even in the 90's I had wanna be technicians that would only start at $40K - down the street they went. At that time $15Hr was pretty much standard for entry level technicians, even Boeing, Physio Control, Fluke ....etc. End result is that lowley trade school pointed me in the right direction!
When life closes a door on you
Open another
That is what doors do!
Later
troyphoto
Snarky Old Fart (in training)
Well said.
While my degrees in Journalism were directly applied, and I attended college at a time they were still state supported, that profession struggled to pay enough to overcome the school loans I had to take out.
My grandfather, a WW2 vet TRIED to get me to accept an appointment to any military academy. Even had the senator and congress critter lined up to push my name in...
That would have been a disaster. Math being one problem, and me having zero desire being the other. As much as I appreciate all he did for me now, back then as a 17 year old kid, the phrase "It'll make a man out of you!" was probably the worst thing to say.
Do I regret NOT going to one of the academies? No. It wouldn't have fit. I would have washed out early on.
One requirement of the journalism bachelors degree I earned was having a double major, because we needed to be well rounded in our education. I chose two related minors to make a New Testament Studies major.
Have I ever worked in ministry? Nope. Have I been a journalist writing on religious topics? Nope. I'm not even religious.
But I learned a lot about what makes the political world tick, and I have worked in that profession. At a very low level. What I saw here in Indiana scared me. To say more crosses the line.
So, I've got no problems with Political Science degrees, Religious degrees, or LGBT degrees. Just like I don't have problems with business degrees or engineering degrees. Completing a degree shows you know how to apply yourself being a fraternity brother and drinking enough beer to down a horse, then making it to class the next day.
I find it unfortunate that states are tightening their budgets at the expense of students, especially those not cut out for careers in the military or trades.
D&J RailRoad
Professor of HO
When people come out of a study program with the roster of academics required for a specific degree, it makes a major difference if they only studied to regurgitate the text book answer or if they twiddled the topic to see how it could be applied in other ways. A basic math study might help ya with accounting but it doesn't teach ya the expance of business or corporate accounting.
Taking some basic English composition classes will help a young person enhance their writing ability to put their ideas in print or even write performance evaluation reports that get their charges raises or better positions.
Basically, a person who is unwilling to invest in themselves to improve their skills is not long in their current job.
Nobody wants a career private.
Taking some basic English composition classes will help a young person enhance their writing ability to put their ideas in print or even write performance evaluation reports that get their charges raises or better positions.
Basically, a person who is unwilling to invest in themselves to improve their skills is not long in their current job.
Nobody wants a career private.
chadbag
Well-Known Member
As a followup to what I said about college.
While a college degree and the university experience is not the same as a trade school (it's a lot less hands on immediate skills) we typically do do our college educations around a field we're interested in working in. Not always, but usually. And one reason for that is because we need to be able to work to support ourselves and our education leads us to the ability to perform in whatever fields we find ourselves in.
This does not mean that its bad to get a degree or study at the university level in something other than a field that you can support yourself and your family in. It just means that if you choose a degree in a field that does not lead more or less directly to working in the field, then you need to realize that and have a plan to get skills and knowledge that will allow you to work in some field and support yourself and your family. Getting one of these degrees that doesn't have a clear path to a career should be done with eyes wide open, and a plan to support yourself, or be born with a silver spoon in your mouth and mommy and daddy's wealth being inherited by you.
It's not fair to the rest of society for you to elect to do a non-career path degree and expect others to pay for it. If you can pay for it or someone has volunteered to pay for it, like mommy and daddy or great uncle Bob and greant Aunt Sally, or you were born with a silver spoon in your mouth, then great, have at it. Learning and education is a great thing. Just don't complain if you don't have a job or can't get a job with your proverbial basket-weaving degree.
Like I said, I'd like to get a Masters in Military History and some sort of music composition degree. But I'm under no illusions that I'll be able to support myself with either of those, and that I'd be on my own to afford it.
While a college degree and the university experience is not the same as a trade school (it's a lot less hands on immediate skills) we typically do do our college educations around a field we're interested in working in. Not always, but usually. And one reason for that is because we need to be able to work to support ourselves and our education leads us to the ability to perform in whatever fields we find ourselves in.
This does not mean that its bad to get a degree or study at the university level in something other than a field that you can support yourself and your family in. It just means that if you choose a degree in a field that does not lead more or less directly to working in the field, then you need to realize that and have a plan to get skills and knowledge that will allow you to work in some field and support yourself and your family. Getting one of these degrees that doesn't have a clear path to a career should be done with eyes wide open, and a plan to support yourself, or be born with a silver spoon in your mouth and mommy and daddy's wealth being inherited by you.
It's not fair to the rest of society for you to elect to do a non-career path degree and expect others to pay for it. If you can pay for it or someone has volunteered to pay for it, like mommy and daddy or great uncle Bob and greant Aunt Sally, or you were born with a silver spoon in your mouth, then great, have at it. Learning and education is a great thing. Just don't complain if you don't have a job or can't get a job with your proverbial basket-weaving degree.
Like I said, I'd like to get a Masters in Military History and some sort of music composition degree. But I'm under no illusions that I'll be able to support myself with either of those, and that I'd be on my own to afford it.
shortwrench
Well-Known Member
Anything you learn can't be taken away from you. Take the opportunity to learn whatever you can,
even if really doesn't align with your current interests. You'll never know when some obscure
knowledge will be of benefit to you.
Regardless if you didn't graduate from high school, have a diploma, a 2yr, 4yr, or higher level of education;
any knowledge gained is an education.
During my working life, I've had jobs that involved teaching methods and processes to others. Some
people really didn't want to pay much attention. I nicely told them it was to your benefit to learn this
since you job depends on it. Most of them got the hint.
Someone asked me what my favorite job was. I replied a mentor. Knowledge lost is knowledge wasted.
Now I'll step down from the soapbox and return to regular scheduled programming.
even if really doesn't align with your current interests. You'll never know when some obscure
knowledge will be of benefit to you.
Regardless if you didn't graduate from high school, have a diploma, a 2yr, 4yr, or higher level of education;
any knowledge gained is an education.
During my working life, I've had jobs that involved teaching methods and processes to others. Some
people really didn't want to pay much attention. I nicely told them it was to your benefit to learn this
since you job depends on it. Most of them got the hint.
Someone asked me what my favorite job was. I replied a mentor. Knowledge lost is knowledge wasted.
Now I'll step down from the soapbox and return to regular scheduled programming.
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