Runaround track

[zoegraf]

Would a run around track at a depot be ever used to unload a freight car or used as a team track?

I've designed a track plan with a runaround, but the runaround has a turnout on it to go to a turntable. I've designed this runaround primarily for trains to go by when a train is on the mainline in front of the depot and for the engine of having a way to get to a turntable. So I'm thinking it would be best to have a freight shed near the mainline next to the depot?

I'm limited with space right now so I'm making this L shaped layout, which is made of two doors that are 80" by 24". The minimum radius is 36", which has been so far a big challenge, but this layout will eventually go into a room probably no smaller that 12' by 10'. I'd really like to have a runaround track that was all straight, but this is all I can come up with, which is a bit of a compromise with part of it straight in front of the depot.

 

[Trussrod]

Hi Zoe,
I believe that was a common practice so passenger cars could be dropped of at the station
and then even possibly some freight cars left at a freight house just slightly further on by maybe 100 ft, that was the practice used over in the little town of Raymond which also kept the main line clear but in this case ended a little above where the station was.

Also they had a switch prior to getting to the station that went off to the right to a turn table with a short leg behind it to accommodate possibly a caboose to be turned around after the engine was reversed. I'm assuming that once the Loco was turned around it would go back out on the mainline and couple up to the caboose and back it onto the turn table to be swapped but somehow that doesn't make sense as the tail track really isn't needed for that. Maybe it was used as a place to dump the coals is the engine was to stay over night??

Basically, your idea is very similar to what I'm doing too in that I have a passing siding in front of my stations to allow through trains to proceed while cars are at the station area or even along the mainline here and there to facilitate shuffling cars around when being dropped off & picked up.

It about the only way various cars could be effectively shuffled for delivery on the return trip. Actually Raymond even had a second spur on the opposite side of the mainline in the station area.

 

[zoegraf]

Hi Zoe,
I believe that was a common practice so passenger cars could be dropped of at the station
and then even possibly some freight cars left at a freight house just slightly further on by maybe 100 ft, that was the practice used over in the little town of Raymond which also kept the main line clear but in this case ended a little above where the station was.

Also they had a switch prior to getting to the station that went off to the right to a turn table with a short leg behind it to accommodate possibly a caboose to be turned around after the engine was reversed. I'm assuming that once the Loco was turned around it would go back out on the mainline and couple up to the caboose and back it onto the turn table to be swapped but somehow that doesn't make sense as the tail track really isn't needed for that. Maybe it was used as a place to dump the coals is the engine was to stay over night??

Basically, your idea is very similar to what I'm doing too in that I have a passing siding in front of my stations to allow through trains to proceed while cars are at the station area or even along the mainline here and there to facilitate shuffling cars around when being dropped off & picked up.

It about the only way various cars could be effectively shuffled for delivery on the return trip. Actually Raymond even had a second spur on the opposite side of the mainline in the station area.

Thanks Trussrod.

Considering that most of my trains will be coming in from the left of my track plan, would the freight shed be appropriate towards the mainline on the curve or would that not look prototypical? I've seen images of branch line depots along curved track, but the radius was quite large. Perhaps a very small shed won't draw attention to the curve? Or should I just keep it simple with a trackside loading dock/ramp? Your input and knowledge is much appreciated.

 

[Trussrod]

Thanks Trussrod.

Considering that most of my trains will be coming in from the left of my track plan, would the freight shed be appropriate towards the mainline on the curve or would that not look prototypical? I've seen images of branch line depots along curved track, but the radius was quite large. Perhaps a very small shed won't draw attention to the curve? Or should I just keep it simple with a trackside loading dock/ramp? Your input and knowledge is much appreciated.

Zoe,

A friend, a Southern Pacific Engineer once told me if you can conceive it you'll find it on the RR some place! So to answer your question, thats about the only spot you have available as the plan is drawn so without any changes that's about the best location.

But I see a couple of other alternatives you might want to consider if your going to use this oval plan, although you did mention something about an 'L' shape layout too?

In using the Oval shape you already have a problem as drawn with the track work on the lower side being right on the edge and you need to allow a bare minimum of 1 3/4" for the width of equipment and NMRA clearance gauge is 2" from the center line of the track. The grid paper I'm fairly sure is a 1" grid although yours may be metric and either bigger of smaller? In either case the track needs to be shifted up at least a little.

I can also see an easy way to solve this problem and that would be to at least use one curved switch on the left curve to eliminate the straight section needed to facilitate a standard switch which will allow you to keep the cure continuous and a bit tighter. In counting the grid spaces I come up with a total width of 37.25" and even using an 18" radius curve is going to require a bare minimum of 38", preferable 39 to 40".

Also another problem we modelers have is preceiving items such a station can be fit into a smaller space than we actually have. Why not move the station and the freight house on the inside track? Again, to allow more space come off the Right hand curve with a curved switch and possibly move your TT down a bit to allow a longer siding for both structures.

Another thought is to use a curved switch on the lower side to come off with a siding for either the freight house or another industry?

Now, if your actually going to use an 'L' shaped table then you open up your run and track area considerably and a Point-to-Point can be very satisfying too. Indeed even if I do complete my dog bone track plan I may still run it as a P-to-P anyway.

Hope I'm not too far off on some of my assumptions?

Hope this helps, oh btw, Your Welcome!

 

[zoegraf]

Zoe,

A friend, a Southern Pacific Engineer once told me if you can conceive it you'll find it on the RR some place! So to answer your question, thats about the only spot you have available as the plan is drawn so without any changes that's about the best location.

But I see a couple of other alternatives you might want to consider if your going to use this oval plan, although you did mention something about an 'L' shape layout too?

In using the Oval shape you already have a problem as drawn with the track work on the lower side being right on the edge and you need to allow a bare minimum of 1 3/4" for the width of equipment and NMRA clearance gauge is 2" from the center line of the track. The grid paper I'm fairly sure is a 1" grid although yours may be metric and either bigger of smaller? In either case the track needs to be shifted up at least a little.

I can also see an easy way to solve this problem and that would be to at least use one curved switch on the left curve to eliminate the straight section needed to facilitate a standard switch which will allow you to keep the cure continuous and a bit tighter. In counting the grid spaces I come up with a total width of 37.25" and even using an 18" radius curve is going to require a bare minimum of 38", preferable 39 to 40".

Also another problem we modelers have is preceiving items such a station can be fit into a smaller space than we actually have. Why not move the station and the freight house on the inside track? Again, to allow more space come off the Right hand curve with a curved switch and possibly move your TT down a bit to allow a longer siding for both structures.

Another thought is to use a curved switch on the lower side to come off with a siding for either the freight house or another industry?

Now, if your actually going to use an 'L' shaped table then you open up your run and track area considerably and a Point-to-Point can be very satisfying too. Indeed even if I do complete my dog bone track plan I may still run it as a P-to-P anyway.

Hope I not too far off on some of my assumptions?

Hope this helps, oh btw, Your Welcome!

Thanks for the great ideas Trussrod.

The three modules in the plan are 80" by 24" (doors) and the squares represent 2 inch squares. I will move the track a bit as you mentioned so I can have clearance for my baggage car and any future long passenger cars. On the bottom of my plan it doesn't show the future module, which will be a minimum of 24" by 10.66Ft or even larger if I get a good sized room to put it in, in the future. The worst scenario is I will end up with a layout only 10.66ft by 8.66ft, but I'm sure I'll have a second bedroom with larger dimensions and this is why I am not committing to making the lower section. The curves on the lower left and right will not be permanent for now because I might end up with a room larger; ideally 11ft by 13ft.

So do you mean that the station could be placed between the track to the turntable and the runaround track by putting a curved turnout farther left of where the water tower is? Perhaps even further onto the left module? Yikes! I'm going to have to learn how to make a curved turnouts.

I also like the idea of the freight shed having its own siding or using it for a small coaling trestle for the locals.

Sorry, I don't understand what "open up your run and track area" means.

Thanks again for the input.

 

[dave1905]

Probably not with the configuration you have there. Dropping a car on the runaround to use as a team track would block the runaround from being used as a runaround and limit access to the water tank or engine terminal. A lot depends on whether this is a terminal that serves one or two trains a day or a main route where dozens of trains a day go through and the runaround will have to be used as a passing siding.

The way you have it set up any train on the main that needs water will have to either pull through the runaround or cut off their engines and bring them into the runaround.

 

[Rico]

I'd cut a switch into the siding to service the freight shed.
I like the plan and the broad curves!

 

[zoegraf]

Probably not with the configuration you have there. Dropping a car on the runaround to use as a team track would block the runaround from being used as a runaround and limit access to the water tank or engine terminal. A lot depends on whether this is a terminal that serves one or two trains a day or a main route where dozens of trains a day go through and the runaround will have to be used as a passing siding.

The way you have it set up any train on the main that needs water will have to either pull through the runaround or cut off their engines and bring them into the runaround.

The H20 circle just represents a steel water tower like this one, not a water column so it could be placed elsewhere. Where would be the ideal place to position the water column? Between the runaround and mainline? Considering most trains will be coming in from the left, should it be to the right of the depot somewhere?


I suppose I could put a short team track just to the right of the depot, but it would only be about 160 scale feet fitting about 3 boxcars, which isn’t too bad.

This plan will have a visit of one freight train per day with additional brief visits by a doodlebug, budd rail car, and a passenger train that will only consist of a baggage car and a coach.

I do want to keep the runaround mostly for other trains to pass by and for the access to the turntable in case I ever decide to run more trains.

 

[zoegraf]

I'd cut a switch into the siding to service the freight shed.
I like the plan and the broad curves!

By cutting a switch in to the siding, do you mean on the runaround and having the freight shed located between the track to the turntable and runaround track?

I do like broad curves and do not like going under 36R because my Steam locos and baggage car just don’t look good on smaller radiuses.

 

[Rico]

Okay where the heck did I see a freight shed??
Coffee must not have been strong enough this AM.
I thought there was one to the left of the plan by the West switch for some reason.
Just a track running off the siding somewhere by the road would make a great team track and free up the others.
I like team tracks as there is no limit to what cars could be spotted there.

 

[Rico]

AHA!!
Maybe the coffee was all right after all, I found the mystery shed!
(okay it was in a seperate thread so partial points for me)

 

[zoegraf]

Okay where the heck did I see a freight shed??
Coffee must not have been strong enough this AM.
I thought there was one to the left of the plan by the West switch for some reason.
Just a track running off the siding somewhere by the road would make a great team track and free up the others.
I like team tracks as there is no limit to what cars could be spotted there.

So could I tuck that team track in off the runaround to be situated between the runaround and the track to the turntable?

 

[zoegraf]

I inverted the curves, but it doesn't work because I get this S shape problem at the turnout that is to the right above the turntable. A baggage or passenger car going through that won't look good.

I tried inverting the plan because I noted in prototypical image of depots on curves, the curve hugs towards the depot not away from it. Perhaps there are depots and freight sheds that are along a curve that is curved away.

My last layout a had this depot on a curve, but the curve was away and I have no ideal if it was prototypical or not. Oh the problems of limited space. However, this is quite an exercise and learning experience for me.

 

[Cjcrescent]

To eliminate the s-curve, (in the second photo), just drop in a RT hand turnout, a straight one will work, about where the curve is just above the TT. Since you've handlaid track before, building a turnout to fit here shouldn't be a big deal.

 

[zoegraf]

To eliminate the s-curve, (in the second photo), just drop in a RT hand turnout, a straight one will work, about where the curve is just above the TT. Since you've handlaid track before, building a turnout to fit here shouldn't be a big deal.

Thanks! What a great idea. I never thought of that. Now I can have a longer straight track for the depot area, which enables a train with at least 8 cars and a caboose. Might even get away with team-track off the mainline now using a turnout attached to the turnout you mentioned.
Now I just got to figure out where to locate the depot, water tower, and water column.

In the second and third shot, you can see that I lowered the entire track plan down an inch so the curved track to the right won't be too close to the corner edge. It now is 3 inches from the edge. Might even put a triangle filler piece in.

 

[zoegraf]

Well I'm gonna call it a night; still haven't decided if to go with a team track.

So far I've come up with this:

Positioned the depot with a freight shed a hundred feet away from it to the left with a small livestock (sheep) ramp next to it. Also put the H2o column between the runaround and the mainline to the right of the depot. The steel water tower I put close to the engine house. I added a siding on the right side module, which will be a grade to a small elevated coaling bin for the locals. Tomorrow I'll figure out where to put the access road(s). Phew!
And I got rid of the other s-shaped track I missed on the left module and corrected it with a left turnout. Curves are close to the edges, but do have a two inch clearance, which doesn't include the additional 1/4 inch fascia not shown.

 

[Trussrod]

Thanks for the great ideas Trussrod.

The three modules in the plan are 80" by 24" (doors) and the squares represent 2 inch squares. I will move the track a bit as you mentioned so I can have clearance for my baggage car and any future long passenger cars. On the bottom of my plan it doesn't show the future module, which will be a minimum of 24" by 10.66Ft or even larger if I get a good sized room to put it in, in the future. The worst scenario is I will end up with a layout only 10.66ft by 8.66ft, but I'm sure I'll have a second bedroom with larger dimensions and this is why I am not committing to making the lower section. The curves on the lower left and right will not be permanent for now because I might end up with a room larger; ideally 11ft by 13ft.

So do you mean that the station could be placed between the track to the turntable and the runaround track by putting a curved turnout farther left of where the water tower is? Perhaps even further onto the left module? Yikes! I'm going to have to learn how to make a curved turnouts.

I also like the idea of the freight shed having its own siding or using it for a small coaling trestle for the locals.

Sorry, I don't understand what "open up your run and track area" means.

Thanks again for the input.

Hi Zoe,
I see it was a good thing I asked about about the grid size as your area is twice as wide as I thought, but even at a total width of 74.5" your still going to be too tight trying to maintain a 36" Radius curve as that will require the total width of the table/doors and if you add a third door to it for extra width your going to possibly have a reach problem if things are too far toward the center.

Of course if you made a large, open center type of design you could easily duck under or have a lift-out to gain access to the center and then your reach over would only be 2'. That's what I would suggest and put an extension on one inner edge to hold your turntable.

This is dependent on the room size you have to work with of course so that is your determining factor as what can be done.

With an open center [] design it would sure give you a low more open area to utilize for other industries very possibly even a second station as well as possibly even an upper elevation along the back edge as well as some trackage that has some slight curves rather than everything being too straight, if that is appealing to you like the track detouring a large rock for example to add some interest?

Just some added thoughts.

 

[zoegraf]

Hi Zoe,
I see it was a good thing I asked about about the grid size as your area is twice as wide as I thought, but even at a total width of 74.5" your still going to be too tight trying to maintain a 36" Radius curve as that will require the total width of the table/doors and if you add a third door to it for extra width your going to possibly have a reach problem if things are too far toward the center.

Of course if you made a large, open center type of design you could easily duck under or have a lift-out to gain access to the center and then your reach over would only be 2'. That's what I would suggest and put an extension on one inner edge to hold your turntable.

This is dependent on the room size you have to work with of course so that is your determining factor as what can be done.

With an open center [] design it would sure give you a low more open area to utilize for other industries very possibly even a second station as well as possibly even an upper elevation along the back edge as well as some trackage that has some slight curves rather than everything being too straight, if that is appealing to you like the track detouring a large rock for example to add some interest?

Just some added thoughts.

Thoughts appreciated Turssrod.

The U-shaped layout made out of the three doors in my current drawing will probably have to attach to a one piece section that is is a minimum of 10.66ft X 2ft (which will most likely not be a door) in order to accommodate the completion of the oval for continuous operation. This piece might even be deeper than two feet, which depends on the room size, but it will probably have to be cut to a u-shape in order to have an open centre. Perhaps I could make this piece out of combining two cut pieces approx 5.33ft X 2ft.

I like the idea of track detouring a large rock also a rock blasted for a track to go through might be nice like in this photo for the aforementioned section.

 

[Trussrod]

Yes, it can all add interest, for sure.

 

[zoegraf]

A curve of gradually diminishing radius

I just learned about spiral curve easements last night. Shame on me for not knowing about this all these years though I have used my eye, only using the flexible stick method.

My drawing doesn’t show or account for this so I will adjust accordingly once I figure out the easement dimensions required, but I’m terrible at math and understanding formulas. I found a HO scale chart for transition length and offset distance dimensions, but it only goes up to 32inch radius. I need to know the easement dimensions for a 36-inch radius and a 39-inch.

Can someone point me to a chart or figure out the dimensions for me?