Yes, the jumper plug that attaches to the circuit board has materially changed rather than the actual circuit board itself. Thanks for the clarification.
Oct. 2 Thread Followup Test Results (MRC Tech 2 + Atlas Tman + Bmann)
- Thread starter DougC
- Start date
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Yes, the jumper plug that attaches to the circuit board has materially changed rather than the actual circuit board itself. Thanks for the clarification.
Good luck with that.
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Yes, the jumper plug that attaches to the circuit board has materially changed rather than the actual circuit board itself. Thanks for the clarification.
All:
Yesterday evening I took two of my Atlas Trainman GP38-2s and removed the DCC boards, rewired them direct, and as I've done on some other locos added a 3-13 volt DC LED with attached resistor headlight (from Evan Designs) on the head ends only. I then ran them at 21mph (on the Tech 2 scale) in regular (not pulse) mode, pulling 64 cars. The engines ran 100% quiet and very steady around the 16" radius curves.
BUT, after 15 minutes of running the surface of the power pack was hot, and after 20 minutes the lower left corner of the power pack surface was too hot to touch (I put my finger on it and after about 2 seconds I had to take it off.)
Needless to say I was and still am very disappointed, irritated and frustrated.
I'm about ready to stop the experiments and just use the pulse power, but I do have a phone message in to MRC's Power Pack Svc. dept. I'll let you know what they say.
wright2626 may be right - these locos may have more in-built resistance particularly at slow speeds.
I JUST TALKED TO the MRC Power Pack Svc. Dept. After I described the situation he basically said (inbetween a lot of electronic language) that .4 amps at 5 volts is basically a heavy load for the Tech 2 Railmaster 2400 power packs (I don't understand the details but I'll take his word for it.) These power packs are rated at 17VA (watts?) and he said that, at least for these Atlast Trainman engines, a power pack with 30VA would be suitable, but I can continue to use the current power packs. I understood him to also say that these particular engines seem to draw a lot of power and the load (long trains) add to it.
If I'm understanding the MRC rep correctly, does this sound accurate to you?
It sounds reasonable to me; possibly these small power packs weren't made for these kinds of loads (locos and long trains.)
Doug
Yesterday evening I took two of my Atlas Trainman GP38-2s and removed the DCC boards, rewired them direct, and as I've done on some other locos added a 3-13 volt DC LED with attached resistor headlight (from Evan Designs) on the head ends only. I then ran them at 21mph (on the Tech 2 scale) in regular (not pulse) mode, pulling 64 cars. The engines ran 100% quiet and very steady around the 16" radius curves.
BUT, after 15 minutes of running the surface of the power pack was hot, and after 20 minutes the lower left corner of the power pack surface was too hot to touch (I put my finger on it and after about 2 seconds I had to take it off.)
Needless to say I was and still am very disappointed, irritated and frustrated.
I'm about ready to stop the experiments and just use the pulse power, but I do have a phone message in to MRC's Power Pack Svc. dept. I'll let you know what they say.
wright2626 may be right - these locos may have more in-built resistance particularly at slow speeds.
I JUST TALKED TO the MRC Power Pack Svc. Dept. After I described the situation he basically said (inbetween a lot of electronic language) that .4 amps at 5 volts is basically a heavy load for the Tech 2 Railmaster 2400 power packs (I don't understand the details but I'll take his word for it.) These power packs are rated at 17VA (watts?) and he said that, at least for these Atlast Trainman engines, a power pack with 30VA would be suitable, but I can continue to use the current power packs. I understood him to also say that these particular engines seem to draw a lot of power and the load (long trains) add to it.
If I'm understanding the MRC rep correctly, does this sound accurate to you?
It sounds reasonable to me; possibly these small power packs weren't made for these kinds of loads (locos and long trains.)
Doug
diburning
AlcoHaulic
eh.... usually you want to get the graphite off the brushes instead of adding more. The brushes are carbon (graphite) and over time it leaves that dark mark/trail on your motor which I clean off every now and then.
Also, the Atlas motors are very delicate. If you pop it open the wrong way, you can throw out the motor.
Also, the Atlas motors are very delicate. If you pop it open the wrong way, you can throw out the motor.
All:
Sorry to drag this out but I just did a revealing test using part of IowaFarmBoy’s suggestion.
I cleared out Trk#2, a loop about 50’ long, all NS rail, 19” radius, and flat as a pancake.
TEST:
A. With nothing on the track I first kept the MRC Tech 2 Railmaster 2400 on full for 5 minutes at regular (not pulse) power. It showed nothing on the ammeter and there was no heat build-up in the power pack (as hoped for.)
B. Ran two coupled Atlas Trainman GP38-2s by themselves with NO train behind them around the track for 30 minutes at regular (not pulse) power, and then (after 20 minutes to let the power pack cool off) I ran two coupled Bachmann GP30s by themselves with NO train behind them around the track for 30 minutes at regular (not pulse) power.
Here are the results:
2 Atlas Tmann GP38-2s 2 Bmann GP30s
MPH on the power pack 27 40
Amps .4 .2
Volts 5 6
Heat on power pack surface at:
10 minutes Almost hot Just barely warm
20 minutes Very hot Barely warm
30 minutes Almost too hot A little more than
to touch barely warm
Conclusion:
There’s something wrong with the Atlas Trainman GP38-2 engines (and by default nothing at all wrong with the power pack.)
If you remember I removed the GP38-2s’ DCC boards a day or two ago (made no difference in heat buildup in the power pack using these Atlas GP38-2s.)
I will admit these engines may have been/probably were this way “messed up” since I acquired them brand new about 5 months ago. I wonder though if the MRC power pack interacting with the engines caused them to mess up (seems highly unlikely.)
Diburning or anyone – I have a question. I’ve not taken the motors out of these GP38-2s, but do you know if Atlas has any diodes, resistors, etc. mounted under the motor? If so do you know what they do and can they be removed (for testing at least?) If not, I wonder if they put any of this kind of stuff inside the can motor. Or maybe this batch of motors is just bad.
Regarding the amp readings above, I really doubt that the .2 amp difference in the two engine pairs is significant regarding heating up the power pack. For the Atlas engines together 5 volts x .4 amps is 2VA (somebody correct me if that's wrong); the power pack is rated for 17VA. Or in your experience do you think that is a large difference?
Any thoughts? As far as I can see everything points to faulty Atlas Trainman motors.
Doug
Sorry to drag this out but I just did a revealing test using part of IowaFarmBoy’s suggestion.
I cleared out Trk#2, a loop about 50’ long, all NS rail, 19” radius, and flat as a pancake.
TEST:
A. With nothing on the track I first kept the MRC Tech 2 Railmaster 2400 on full for 5 minutes at regular (not pulse) power. It showed nothing on the ammeter and there was no heat build-up in the power pack (as hoped for.)
B. Ran two coupled Atlas Trainman GP38-2s by themselves with NO train behind them around the track for 30 minutes at regular (not pulse) power, and then (after 20 minutes to let the power pack cool off) I ran two coupled Bachmann GP30s by themselves with NO train behind them around the track for 30 minutes at regular (not pulse) power.
Here are the results:
2 Atlas Tmann GP38-2s 2 Bmann GP30s
MPH on the power pack 27 40
Amps .4 .2
Volts 5 6
Heat on power pack surface at:
10 minutes Almost hot Just barely warm
20 minutes Very hot Barely warm
30 minutes Almost too hot A little more than
to touch barely warm
Conclusion:
There’s something wrong with the Atlas Trainman GP38-2 engines (and by default nothing at all wrong with the power pack.)
If you remember I removed the GP38-2s’ DCC boards a day or two ago (made no difference in heat buildup in the power pack using these Atlas GP38-2s.)
I will admit these engines may have been/probably were this way “messed up” since I acquired them brand new about 5 months ago. I wonder though if the MRC power pack interacting with the engines caused them to mess up (seems highly unlikely.)
Diburning or anyone – I have a question. I’ve not taken the motors out of these GP38-2s, but do you know if Atlas has any diodes, resistors, etc. mounted under the motor? If so do you know what they do and can they be removed (for testing at least?) If not, I wonder if they put any of this kind of stuff inside the can motor. Or maybe this batch of motors is just bad.
Regarding the amp readings above, I really doubt that the .2 amp difference in the two engine pairs is significant regarding heating up the power pack. For the Atlas engines together 5 volts x .4 amps is 2VA (somebody correct me if that's wrong); the power pack is rated for 17VA. Or in your experience do you think that is a large difference?
Any thoughts? As far as I can see everything points to faulty Atlas Trainman motors.
Doug
wright2626
Member
run each trainman individually and check the numbers. also, how well are they speedmatched?
diburning - I checked the GP38-2's exploded parts diagram and it shows nothing under the motor.
So right now I'm registering on the Atlas forum and will ask them about these GP38-2s' problems, and if there are any items added under the motor. Of all people they should hopefully know what's going on.
Thank you all for your input and help. I'll let you know what happens. I'd sure like to get this problem fixed, if possible. I LIKE these engines and I can still run them in pulse mode, but something is grossly wrong.
Doug
So right now I'm registering on the Atlas forum and will ask them about these GP38-2s' problems, and if there are any items added under the motor. Of all people they should hopefully know what's going on.
Thank you all for your input and help. I'll let you know what happens. I'd sure like to get this problem fixed, if possible. I LIKE these engines and I can still run them in pulse mode, but something is grossly wrong.
Doug
diburning
AlcoHaulic
Good luck with that.
diburning:
Thanks for planning to look into a trainman gp38-2. And yes, I did read the Atlas thread here and I understand your comment about good luck.
I think tomorrow I will patch together some info from this thread and email it to Atlas cust. service. All it will cost me is time. And I hope I will get some useful info.
By the way I did go to the Atlas forum and search "Trainman GP38-2" but none of the hits addressed this problem.
Thanks again for all your advice and help.
Doug
Thanks for planning to look into a trainman gp38-2. And yes, I did read the Atlas thread here and I understand your comment about good luck.
I think tomorrow I will patch together some info from this thread and email it to Atlas cust. service. All it will cost me is time. And I hope I will get some useful info.
By the way I did go to the Atlas forum and search "Trainman GP38-2" but none of the hits addressed this problem.
Thanks again for all your advice and help.
Doug
diburning and anyone interested:
First, I got okayed on the Atlas forums. Took a couple of days. And in light of the info below I am going to hold off bringing this problem up on the forum.
But I did email Atlas cust. svc. detailing the issues I've been having with their Tmann GP38-2s. The response was to the point and pleasant. They said they've never had this problem before and to send a loco in and they will check and test it. So I'm going to do so.
They also said that there are no capacitors, diodes, et al either under the motor or inside of it. So I'm thinking we don't need to take one apart.
They asked if one engine runs faster than the other ("fighting" and causing electrical problems.) No, when running light they are just about exactly the same speed.
I'll let you know what they find out. This situation makes me again think there's something wrong with my system, but the amp and volt meters should show something (and they don't), and the Bmann engines have no problem at all. My current thought is that the particular model of power packs I'm using (MRC Tech 2 Railmaster 2400s, which are old models) may be incompatible with the modern Atlas can motors. And I'm not implying anything is wrong with the Atlas motors. This is all just guesswork.
Atlas said they were about a month behind, but I plan to post the results here when I get them.
Doug
First, I got okayed on the Atlas forums. Took a couple of days. And in light of the info below I am going to hold off bringing this problem up on the forum.
But I did email Atlas cust. svc. detailing the issues I've been having with their Tmann GP38-2s. The response was to the point and pleasant. They said they've never had this problem before and to send a loco in and they will check and test it. So I'm going to do so.
They also said that there are no capacitors, diodes, et al either under the motor or inside of it. So I'm thinking we don't need to take one apart.
They asked if one engine runs faster than the other ("fighting" and causing electrical problems.) No, when running light they are just about exactly the same speed.
I'll let you know what they find out. This situation makes me again think there's something wrong with my system, but the amp and volt meters should show something (and they don't), and the Bmann engines have no problem at all. My current thought is that the particular model of power packs I'm using (MRC Tech 2 Railmaster 2400s, which are old models) may be incompatible with the modern Atlas can motors. And I'm not implying anything is wrong with the Atlas motors. This is all just guesswork.
Atlas said they were about a month behind, but I plan to post the results here when I get them.
Doug
Well, per my previous post of yesterday I said I would followup. Here it is.
I got an address to send the loco to from Atlas today. However he added:
- be sure to insure your shipment
- be sure to take any items off that you installed
- be sure to include a copy of your receipt
- if you've owned the engine more than 90 days we will charge you for testing etc. (amount not specified)
Game changed a bit. Also I traded at a LHS for these locos and wasn't given a receipt. Even if I was I think it would be more than 90 days old.
So, I'm going to thank Atlas and not send the loco. I give it a 90% probability that if I sent it up there the testing results would be, "We found nothing wrong with the engine." (Just like MRC says there's nothing wrong with their power pack - I talked with them about the situation.)
I will keep the 4 GP38-2s and run them on pulse power, and give the power pack a rest after about 40 minutes or so (takes only about 10 minutes to cool all the way down.) I can live with it (gives me an excuse to change the power consist out - as if I needed one.)
Thank you all again for your input.
Doug C
I got an address to send the loco to from Atlas today. However he added:
- be sure to insure your shipment
- be sure to take any items off that you installed
- be sure to include a copy of your receipt
- if you've owned the engine more than 90 days we will charge you for testing etc. (amount not specified)
Game changed a bit. Also I traded at a LHS for these locos and wasn't given a receipt. Even if I was I think it would be more than 90 days old.
So, I'm going to thank Atlas and not send the loco. I give it a 90% probability that if I sent it up there the testing results would be, "We found nothing wrong with the engine." (Just like MRC says there's nothing wrong with their power pack - I talked with them about the situation.)
I will keep the 4 GP38-2s and run them on pulse power, and give the power pack a rest after about 40 minutes or so (takes only about 10 minutes to cool all the way down.) I can live with it (gives me an excuse to change the power consist out - as if I needed one.)
Thank you all again for your input.
Doug C
julienjj:
Thanks for the idea - hadn't thought of that.
I'll keep it in mind but the heat on the power packs' surfaces is all within 1.5" of half (180 degrees) of the control knob. The cooling items would be in the way of may hand/fingers. Also, I run the GP38-2s on any of 3 loops (even though I could restrict them to one loop only) so theoretically I'd need 3 systems.
Doug
Thanks for the idea - hadn't thought of that.
I'll keep it in mind but the heat on the power packs' surfaces is all within 1.5" of half (180 degrees) of the control knob. The cooling items would be in the way of may hand/fingers. Also, I run the GP38-2s on any of 3 loops (even though I could restrict them to one loop only) so theoretically I'd need 3 systems.
Doug
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